The affirmative case for Christianity

[pinqy]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

 

[ding]

What has the Catholic Church has done for the world? The answer is all around us, from the laws that protect us, to the principles that guide us. It has shaped every area of our lives, yet because its influence is so huge, we take its heritage for granted and forget that it was the source of this civilization. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. The Catholic Church gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. State Church? History does not support your assertion and that's what you guys are doing.

You are just repeating yourself. You were trained that way but you can't train me that way. Sure the church has done good things but western civilization was shaped by many things, not just the church and not all church doings were good. You are engaged in propaganda.

Many were oppressed or killed, you can't gloss over it. Our founders created a secular document to govern our country, I don't see how you can possibly credit the RC Church for it.

Yes, state church, history does support it. That's what the Holy Roman Empire was all about.

Can you name an institution which did more to shape Western Civilization?

Sure. The printing press. It's how the reformation got started and people could read the bible for themselves instead of hearing propaganda from the pulpit.

The printing press is not an institution. Can you name an institution which played a greater role in shaping western civilization that the Catholic Church?

The printing press changed everything in Christianity so you could say it shaped the church. The institution of royalty probably had the largest influence in western civilization though.

Royalty is not an institution either, but let's pretend it is, ok. How dd royalty play a role in shaping Western Civilization? Was modern science born by royalty. Did royalty give us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians? Did royalty give us incredible artwork, music and architecture? Did royalty develop the idea of free-market? Did royalty invent the university. Did western law grow out of royalty? Did royalty humanize the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life? Did royalty seek to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources?

Prey tell, what is the basis for your belief?

 

[ding]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

 

[Iceweasel]

You are just repeating yourself. You were trained that way but you can't train me that way. Sure the church has done good things but western civilization was shaped by many things, not just the church and not all church doings were good. You are engaged in propaganda.

Many were oppressed or killed, you can't gloss over it. Our founders created a secular document to govern our country, I don't see how you can possibly credit the RC Church for it.

Yes, state church, history does support it. That's what the Holy Roman Empire was all about.

Can you name an institution which did more to shape Western Civilization?

Sure. The printing press. It's how the reformation got started and people could read the bible for themselves instead of hearing propaganda from the pulpit.

The printing press is not an institution. Can you name an institution which played a greater role in shaping western civilization that the Catholic Church?

The printing press changed everything in Christianity so you could say it shaped the church. The institution of royalty probably had the largest influence in western civilization though.

Royalty is not an institution either, but let's pretend it is, ok. How dd royalty play a role in shaping Western Civilization? Was modern science born by royalty. Did royalty give us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians? Did royalty give us incredible artwork, music and architecture? Did royalty develop the idea of free-market? Did royalty invent the university. Did western law grow out of royalty? Did royalty humanize the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life? Did royalty seek to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources?

Prey tell, what is the basis for your belief?

You can't put me in your little box. You're just dinging yourself silly. You don't get to define for me what an institution is or is not. The system of royalty and kingdoms very definitely is a institution. You don't get to limit your answers to institutions that have popes or anything else. Many things were done under kingdoms, they even controlled the church.

Here are some of the atrocities that shaped the western world. A small taste:


Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
Ancient Pagans

• As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
• Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
• Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
• Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
• Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
• Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
  According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
• In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
• In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
• The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
  [DO19-25]

Mission

• Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
• Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
• Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
• 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
• 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
  Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

 

[Iceweasel]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

Just because a religion is formed and followed it doesn't make it true. Pretty sure that was his point.

 

[pinqy]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

 

[ding]

Can you name an institution which did more to shape Western Civilization?

Sure. The printing press. It's how the reformation got started and people could read the bible for themselves instead of hearing propaganda from the pulpit.

The printing press is not an institution. Can you name an institution which played a greater role in shaping western civilization that the Catholic Church?

The printing press changed everything in Christianity so you could say it shaped the church. The institution of royalty probably had the largest influence in western civilization though.

Royalty is not an institution either, but let's pretend it is, ok. How dd royalty play a role in shaping Western Civilization? Was modern science born by royalty. Did royalty give us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians? Did royalty give us incredible artwork, music and architecture? Did royalty develop the idea of free-market? Did royalty invent the university. Did western law grow out of royalty? Did royalty humanize the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life? Did royalty seek to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources?

Prey tell, what is the basis for your belief?

You can't put me in your little box. You're just dinging yourself silly. You don't get to define for me what an institution is or is not. The system of royalty and kingdoms very definitely is a institution. You don't get to limit your answers to institutions that have popes or anything else. Many things were done under kingdoms, they even controlled the church.

Here are some of the atrocities that shaped the western world. A small taste:


Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
Ancient Pagans

• As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
• Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
• Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
• Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
• Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
• Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
  According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
• In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
• In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
• The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
  [DO19-25]

Mission

• Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
• Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
• Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
• 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
• 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
  Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

So in other words, you cannot name an institution which has played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church.

Of course you can't. That's because there hasn't been any.

 

[ding]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

I understood that part. The part I am asking about is which part of Christianity could be false? That Jesus never existed, that Jesus never had a ministry? That Jesus was never crucified? That Jesus was never resurrected? That Jesus was fully human and fully God? That's what I am asking.

 

[pinqy]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

I understood that part. The part I am asking about is which part of Christianity could be false? That Jesus never existed, that Jesus never had a ministry? That Jesus was never crucified? That Jesus was never resurrected? That Jesus was fully human and fully God? That's what I am asking.

Any of them. If there are no gods. If Jesus was only human. If Jesus never existed. If the teachings of Paul are at odds with what Jesus really taught. If the wrong books were chosen for the New Testament. It doesn't matter.

 

[Iceweasel]

Sure. The printing press. It's how the reformation got started and people could read the bible for themselves instead of hearing propaganda from the pulpit.

The printing press is not an institution. Can you name an institution which played a greater role in shaping western civilization that the Catholic Church?

The printing press changed everything in Christianity so you could say it shaped the church. The institution of royalty probably had the largest influence in western civilization though.

Royalty is not an institution either, but let's pretend it is, ok. How dd royalty play a role in shaping Western Civilization? Was modern science born by royalty. Did royalty give us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians? Did royalty give us incredible artwork, music and architecture? Did royalty develop the idea of free-market? Did royalty invent the university. Did western law grow out of royalty? Did royalty humanize the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life? Did royalty seek to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources?

Prey tell, what is the basis for your belief?

You can't put me in your little box. You're just dinging yourself silly. You don't get to define for me what an institution is or is not. The system of royalty and kingdoms very definitely is a institution. You don't get to limit your answers to institutions that have popes or anything else. Many things were done under kingdoms, they even controlled the church.

Here are some of the atrocities that shaped the western world. A small taste:


Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
Ancient Pagans

• As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
• Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
• Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
• Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
• Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
• Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
  According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
• In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
• In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
• The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
  [DO19-25]

Mission

• Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
• Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
• Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
• 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
• 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
  Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

So in other words, you cannot name an institution which has played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church.

Of course you can't. That's because there hasn't been any.

WTF? What are you trying to do? Slavery is considered an institution, the institution of slavery, ever hear of it? Yet you can't consider kingdoms an institution because it won't fit the narrow argument you dishonestly want to frame.

There's no question the RC church had a major impact on western civilization but the OP of YOU thread is an affirmative case for Christianity. Or did you forget?

Like I said before you live in a circular logic loop. It's true because you believe it and you believe it because it's true.

 

[hobelim]

There's no question the RC church had a major impact on western civilization but the OP of YOU thread is an affirmative case for Christianity. Or did you forget?

I heard that the impact of the RC church wasn't very positive, for the thinking people.

But thats just what I heard.

Maybe the tribes and people scattered around the world living in peaceful coexistence with nature without any knowledge of dishonesty or any sense of shame for thousands of years really needed underwear?

Who can say?

 

[Czernobog]

You see, you asked me once why I posted "anti-christian arguments" on a religious forum, if not to start arguments/fights. The implication of your question is that the only people who legitimately post to this particular sub-forum should be other religious minded folks for the purpose of discussing points of their religions.

No, my "implication" was that you are a militant atheist who desires to subordinate religion.

That's not entirely honest, Ding, and you know it. You have, in fact, made that laim. However, you hve also asked what business I have posting to a "religious" forum, since I am a self-proclaimed atheist, implying that only those who are religiously like-minded have a right to post on such a forum. When I asked you if that was your position, you did not denyit, you simply changed the subject.

So, tell me, Ding. What is your audience with this post? Do you suppose that there are Christians posting to this sub-forum who are in need of convincing that Christianity needs defending?

My audience is anyone who wishes to discuss this topic.

Christianity would not need defending unless it were attacked.

Okay. Perhaps "defending" was the wrong word. Do you think that Christians are in need of convincing that Christianity is a positive influence? Or is your audience someone else?

Or is this an attempt to lure non-Christians into a debate about the benefits of Christianity?

No, it is an example of what an affirmative case looks like. I figured people who practice critical theory could use an example.

So, your saying it was an exercise in self-congratulator theological masturbation. Looking for a good circle-jerk, to tell you how brilliant you are. Rough week? In need of some positive affirmation were we?

 

[hobelim]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

I understood that part. The part I am asking about is which part of Christianity could be false? That Jesus never existed, that Jesus never had a ministry? That Jesus was never crucified? That Jesus was never resurrected? That Jesus was fully human and fully God? That's what I am asking.

Any of them. If there are no gods. If Jesus was only human. If Jesus never existed. If the teachings of Paul are at odds with what Jesus really taught. If the wrong books were chosen for the New Testament. It doesn't matter.

The fantastical stories and many seemingly contradictory assertions in scripture were included deliberately and intended to raise questions in the mind of the dedicated seeker of truth, and divert the enemy, yet so called believers refuse to notice them as a cause for pause, and act like they believe it all without ever thinking very deeply about it, without even an inkling what they are actually about, consequently never receiving the benefit to understanding.

If the world wasn't so fucked up from all of the confusion, it would be hysterically funny....

 

[ding]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

I understood that part. The part I am asking about is which part of Christianity could be false? That Jesus never existed, that Jesus never had a ministry? That Jesus was never crucified? That Jesus was never resurrected? That Jesus was fully human and fully God? That's what I am asking.

Any of them. If there are no gods. If Jesus was only human. If Jesus never existed. If the teachings of Paul are at odds with what Jesus really taught. If the wrong books were chosen for the New Testament. It doesn't matter.

Depending upon what you believe is false, history could have been much different. In fact, if there were no God, there would be no existence in the first place. So, it does kind of matter.

 

[ding]

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

I understood that part. The part I am asking about is which part of Christianity could be false? That Jesus never existed, that Jesus never had a ministry? That Jesus was never crucified? That Jesus was never resurrected? That Jesus was fully human and fully God? That's what I am asking.

Any of them. If there are no gods. If Jesus was only human. If Jesus never existed. If the teachings of Paul are at odds with what Jesus really taught. If the wrong books were chosen for the New Testament. It doesn't matter.

The fantastical stories and many seemingly contradictory assertions in scripture were included deliberately and intended to raise questions in the mind of the dedicated seeker of truth, and divert the enemy, yet so called believers refuse to notice them as a cause for pause, and act like they believe it all without ever thinking very deeply about it, without even an inkling what they are actually about, consequently never receiving the benefit to understanding.

If the world wasn't so fucked up from all of the confusion, it would be hysterically funny....

The world is fucked up because it has made imperfect man the measure of all things on earth. Imperfect man, who is never free of pride, self-interest, envy, vanity, and dozens of other defects. Blaming it on the religion is an intentional distraction from the truth.

 

[ding]

The printing press is not an institution. Can you name an institution which played a greater role in shaping western civilization that the Catholic Church?

The printing press changed everything in Christianity so you could say it shaped the church. The institution of royalty probably had the largest influence in western civilization though.

Royalty is not an institution either, but let's pretend it is, ok. How dd royalty play a role in shaping Western Civilization? Was modern science born by royalty. Did royalty give us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians? Did royalty give us incredible artwork, music and architecture? Did royalty develop the idea of free-market? Did royalty invent the university. Did western law grow out of royalty? Did royalty humanize the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life? Did royalty seek to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources?

Prey tell, what is the basis for your belief?

You can't put me in your little box. You're just dinging yourself silly. You don't get to define for me what an institution is or is not. The system of royalty and kingdoms very definitely is a institution. You don't get to limit your answers to institutions that have popes or anything else. Many things were done under kingdoms, they even controlled the church.

Here are some of the atrocities that shaped the western world. A small taste:


Christian Atrocities | Victims of Christianity | Catholic Church Inquisition | Crusades
Ancient Pagans

• As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
• Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
• Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
• Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
• Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
• Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
  According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
• In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
• In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
• The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
  [DO19-25]

Mission

• Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
• Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
• Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
• 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
• 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
  Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

So in other words, you cannot name an institution which has played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church.

Of course you can't. That's because there hasn't been any.

WTF? What are you trying to do? Slavery is considered an institution, the institution of slavery, ever hear of it? Yet you can't consider kingdoms an institution because it won't fit the narrow argument you dishonestly want to frame.

There's no question the RC church had a major impact on western civilization but the OP of YOU thread is an affirmative case for Christianity. Or did you forget?

Like I said before you live in a circular logic loop. It's true because you believe it and you believe it because it's true.

The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. You don't get more Christian than that. The Catholic Church has many Christian achievements. Western Civilization was built upon the foundation of Christianity. Just go google it.

 

[ding]

That's not entirely honest, Ding, and you know it. You have, in fact, made that laim. However, you hve also asked what business I have posting to a "religious" forum, since I am a self-proclaimed atheist, implying that only those who are religiously like-minded have a right to post on such a forum. When I asked you if that was your position, you did not denyit, you simply changed the subject.

I will tell you what I probably told you back then, you are free to post anything you want, just don't be surprised that when you come looking for a fight that you get one.

Okay. Perhaps "defending" was the wrong word. Do you think that Christians are in need of convincing that Christianity is a positive influence? Or is your audience someone else?

No. I don't believe they are in need of convincing that Christianity is a positive influence. I think they are in need of convincing that militant atheism and socialism/communism go hand in hand.

So, your saying it was an exercise in self-congratulator theological masturbation. Looking for a good circle-jerk, to tell you how brilliant you are. Rough week? In need of some positive affirmation were we?

I think you guys have that well in hand.

 

[BreezeWood]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness. Christianity is responsible for the creation of wonderful charities and organizations which serve the betterment of man. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.Christians and Christian institutions have been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity and has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave and that actions have consequences. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe and helps us feel connected to one another and to nature through regular community gatherings. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world by binding the community together. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit and inspires love, peace and happiness. Christianity brings order to our lives by promoting the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness and humility. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill and can act as a source of hope for the oppressed. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves. That it is possible to change for the better. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market. The Catholic Church invented the university. Western law grew out of Church canon law. The Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources. Religion gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians. Christianity gave us America. Christianity gave us incredible artwork, music and architecture. Christianity has spread democracy throughout the world. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression and rebuilt Europe and Japan after WWII. Christians put a man on the moon and ended the cold war.

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

I understood that part. The part I am asking about is which part of Christianity could be false? That Jesus never existed, that Jesus never had a ministry? That Jesus was never crucified? That Jesus was never resurrected? That Jesus was fully human and fully God? That's what I am asking.

Any of them. If there are no gods. If Jesus was only human. If Jesus never existed. If the teachings of Paul are at odds with what Jesus really taught. If the wrong books were chosen for the New Testament. It doesn't matter.

.

Any of them. If there are no gods. If Jesus was only human. If Jesus never existed. If the teachings of Paul are at odds with what Jesus really taught. If the wrong books were chosen for the New Testament. It doesn't matter.

it doesn't matter is purely rhetorical ... good luck with those believers, they've proven the opposite.

 

[Iceweasel]

There's no question the RC church had a major impact on western civilization but the OP of YOU thread is an affirmative case for Christianity. Or did you forget?

Like I said before you live in a circular logic loop. It's true because you believe it and you believe it because it's true.

The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. You don't get more Christian than that. The Catholic Church has many Christian achievements. Western Civilization was built upon the foundation of Christianity. Just go google it.

Google smug and you'll probably see your picture. I use duckduckgo btw. It should obvious to even a superior individual as yourself that there are a great many interpretations of what being Christlike is.

But you continue to run away from your own point. The fact that the Catholic church exists and has done some good things doesn't mean the bad things didn't happen. You can claim more good than harm but that's subjective and doesn't prove anything except that it's your opinion.

 

[Iceweasel]

For argument's sake, let us accept everything you say there is 100% true. Christianity could still be false.

How so do you mean?

I mean that everything you wrote could be true and yet Christianity still be false. If I believed that Apollo demanded I donate $1,000 to Red Cross, and I do, is that then evidence that Apollo is real?

I understood that part. The part I am asking about is which part of Christianity could be false? That Jesus never existed, that Jesus never had a ministry? That Jesus was never crucified? That Jesus was never resurrected? That Jesus was fully human and fully God? That's what I am asking.

Any of them. If there are no gods. If Jesus was only human. If Jesus never existed. If the teachings of Paul are at odds with what Jesus really taught. If the wrong books were chosen for the New Testament. It doesn't matter.

Depending upon what you believe is false, history could have been much different. In fact, if there were no God, there would be no existence in the first place. So, it does kind of matter.

The existence of the church doesn't prove that god exists or that they have the correct understanding. It's called a faith for a reason. Which is why I don't get your posts. You keep trying to make the case that since you believe something that proves it's the truth.