The ACLU and the Second Amendment

5stringJeff

Senior Member
Sep 15, 2003
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Puyallup, WA
Amazing that the ACLU calls the right to bear arms a "collective right," while fighting for individual rights named in the rest of the Bills of Rights. Anyway, I ran across this post elsewhere... namely here. Here's the first bit of it (the whole thing is pretty well written):

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The American Civil Liberties Union is, by far, the leading civil rights organization in this country. For decades, it has championed the cause of the American citizen against the ever-encroaching power of the government.

Over the years, the ACLU has worked to defend American's rights under the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments. Indeed, the ACLU has successfully worked to free convicted murderers due to minor technical irregularities during their arrests, and it championed the cause of avowed racists and anti-Semites to march in public.

Surprisingly, the ACLU has entirely failed to concern itself with arguably one of the most important rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights; namely, the individual's right to keep and bear arms, recognized in the Second Amendment. What can explain this anomaly?

The ACLU explains this contradiction simply by relying upon U.S. v. Miller, an ambiguous case issued by the Supreme Court in 1939.

The ACLU states its position on the Second Amendment is "well known and not subject to change." The ACLU believes the right to bear arms is little more than an anachronism intended to protect the right of the states to maintain militias and thereby insure the states' "freedom" and security against the central government.

On a superficial level, this argument seems to make sense. After all, the Amendment clearly refers to the necessity of a "well regulated Militia." But after further consideration, which is obviously necessary any time American citizen's rights are on the block, it quickly becomes clear the ACLU's position is fraught with inaccuracies and illogical conclusions.

To see the fallacy of the ACLU's position, four issues must be addressed. First, what does the language of the Second Amendment mean? Second, can a state even have a "right," or is a right something which resides only in individuals. Third, what are the implications of the first clause which refers to the "necessity" of a well regulated militia? Finally, what authority does Congress or the Supreme Court have to repeal or annul any of the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment?
 
It would appear I need to rent out an entire city, sit the entire ACLU down, and illustrate howthe Constitution works, and what the 2nd Ammendment means.

It would only take an hour.

These jack-asses think nobody counld understand it in a lifetime.
 
altho I usually appear to be a died in the wool liberal, I fully support the individuals right to bear arms. any kind of arms from slingshots to assault rifles to grenades to tanks. I would however add a caveat that the individual be able to satisfy some standard of responsibility for the safe storage and use of whatever the weapon in question is. what that standard should be is a matter for discussion.
 
Originally posted by Aquarian
altho I usually appear to be a died in the wool liberal, I fully support the individuals right to bear arms. any kind of arms from slingshots to assault rifles to grenades to tanks. I would however add a caveat that the individual be able to satisfy some standard of responsibility for the safe storage and use of whatever the weapon in question is. what that standard should be is a matter for discussion.

White protestant male property owners? Just kidding. I'm feeling peckish today.
 
sorry, i meant to convey chuckling alongside over coffee, in a good way. my emoticon use is not as apt as one might wish I guess :)
 
Originally posted by DKSuddeth
I Like my weapons, very much.

Yes, I know you do.
Albeit, I think that they should be put up better.

And I like not having anything to do wiht them.

However, much as I personally do NOT care for guns I dont feel that myself, the govt, etc should be able to tell and enforce another's right to bear them [weapons].

Afterall DK, its me that youre protecting isnt it?
(And out of us, Im the one that counts, dontcha know)

:)
 
Would you like to know why the ACLU hasn't gotten involved in second amendment cases? Two reasons, first because the NRA takes care of that and the ACLU doesn't want to use it's precious resources for it, and two, because most of the ACLU membership doesn't interpret the second amendment the same way you do.

As far as NAMBLA goes, I'm not going to say this once. The ACLU was involved only insofar as the web provider in that case was concerned. They gave NAMBLA some legal advice, but DID NOT represent NAMBLA.

acludem
 
Originally posted by acludem
As far as NAMBLA goes, I'm not going to say this once. The ACLU was involved only insofar as the web provider in that case was concerned. They gave NAMBLA some legal advice, but DID NOT represent NAMBLA.

Who forced them to give advice to those who violate children?
 
Originally posted by acludem
Would you like to know why the ACLU hasn't gotten involved in second amendment cases? Two reasons, first because the NRA takes care of that and the ACLU doesn't want to use it's precious resources for it, and two, because most of the ACLU membership doesn't interpret the second amendment the same way you do.

Well, if owning a gun is a civil liberty (which it is, according to the Constitution), the the American Civil Liberties Union ought to defend it, regardless of what other organizations actively advocate it. And if the ACLU is concerned about its "precious resources," why are they wasting them on the NAMBLA web site?
And as far as interpreting the 2nd Amendment, it has been interpreted time and again the way it was plainly written - as an individual right to own firearms. I think what you are trying to say is that most of the ACLU membership's agenda is to disarm Americans, but the 2nd Amendment gets in the way.
 
acludem is talking out of his butt again on the 2nd ammendment.

Pop quiz. How many cases have even GONE TO COURT on gun restrictions or gun laws BEING UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

Guess?

100, 1000, 5000?

How about a big fat ZERO.

Anyone wanna ask where all the NRA money goes? How about ACLU?

That is the reality of the people who "defend" the 2nd Ammendment. It stinks to high heaven, and I am sick of the acludems who like to shoot off their mouths and make excuses for things they know nothing about.
 
Huh? What? There have been cases, like right here in my home state of Missouri. Conceal and carry was passed by our state assembly, in spite of the fact that the majority of the people voted against in on the ballot, it was challenged in court, and amongst those helping the state defend it was, you guessed it, the NRA! The NRA takes care of gun laws.
The ACLU is focused more on protecting free speech rights, freedom of religion, and the rights of the accused because these are the rights under direct seige by the federal and state governments. The ACLU is primarily a legal defense organization, so if there have been no court cases involving challenges to restrictive gun laws as you say, how is the ACLU supposed to get involved???

acludem
 
Originally posted by NewGuy
acludem is talking out of his butt again on the 2nd ammendment.

Pop quiz. How many cases have even GONE TO COURT on gun restrictions or gun laws BEING UNCONSTITUTIONAL?

Guess?

100, 1000, 5000?

How about a big fat ZERO.

Anyone wanna ask where all the NRA money goes? How about ACLU?

That is the reality of the people who "defend" the 2nd Ammendment. It stinks to high heaven, and I am sick of the acludems who like to shoot off their mouths and make excuses for things they know nothing about.

I do think that the ACLU should be defending the rights (although I am undecided as to whether it is actually a right) of gun owners against any legislation restricting this right - because defending individual liberties is the purpose of the ACLU. However, on this point you happen to be wrong.

See,
Hunt and Vroman, et al. v. Lockyer, Case No. 01CECG03182 (Cal.)
Springfield, Inc. v. Magaw(D. C.)., 292 F.3d 813 (D.C. Cir. 2002)
Gun Owners' Action League, 284 F.3d 198 (lst Cir. 2002)
NRA v. Magaw, 132 F.3d 272 (6th Cir. 1997), aff'd 301 F.3d 384 (6th Cir. 2002)
Baca v. New Mexico Department of Public Safety, 47 P.3d 441 (N. Mex. 2002)

Information about these cases and many others can be found at www.nra.org, under litigation activities.
 
Originally posted by acludem
The ACLU is primarily a legal defense organization, so if there have been no court cases involving challenges to restrictive gun laws as you say, how is the ACLU supposed to get involved???

acludem

Actually, you are also incorrect acludem (although you did qualify your statement with "as you say."). There have been a number of cases dealing with persons convicted (or arrested) of violating gun restriction laws. See aforementioned www.nra.org
 

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