The Accuracy of The Old Testament

[Viktor]

Old Testament Truth

groups.google.com

It is not a book of myths

 

[Clyde 154]

The old testament is our schoolmaster.........thus it teaches truth through a recorded history of the Judeo/Christian faith, the good, the bad and the ugly all are recorded that we might learn from the mistakes made while under THE LAW.

"For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." -- Romans 15:4 "Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition (cautionary advise), upon whom the end of the ages have come." -- 1 Cor. 10:11

 

[alang1216]

[It is not a book of myths

It is a book of many things, one of which are myths.

 

[Clyde 154]

It is a book of many things, one of which are myths.

No myths would be something like evolution, the magic cosmic egg that created itself from nothing......and unicorns and fairy dust. Unlike evolution.......the holy scriptures can be subject to testing via the science of archaeology. Nothing past 3500 BC can be calibrated for objective truth.

 

[alang1216]

No myths would be something like evolution, the magic cosmic egg that created itself from nothing......and unicorns and fairy dust. Unlike evolution.......the holy scriptures can be subject to testing via the science of archaeology. Nothing past 3500 BC can be calibrated for objective truth.

You're confusing evolution with other, unrelated sciences.

Archeology cuts both ways. The Bible claims 600,000 Jews in the Exodus yet the archeology provides zero evidence of any such influx.

 

[surada]

Old Testament Truth

groups.google.com

It is not a book of myths

During the time that King Omri was trying to reunite Israel and Judah, he had their different creation stories cobbled together.

The stories are didactic literature borrowed from surrounding cultures.. like Sumer, Egypt, Babylon and the Canaanites..

See Egyptian Book of the Dead, Code of Hammurabi, Gilgamesh flood and Ugarit Psalms.

 

[Clyde 154]

You're confusing evolution with other, unrelated sciences.

Archeology cuts both ways. The Bible claims 600,000 Jews in the Exodus yet the archeology provides zero evidence of any such influx.

How does one disprove NOTHING? Basic logic: Its impossible to disprove a negative....i.e., something that has never existed.

Ain't it a grand thing that we live in a nation where everyone has the right to speak his/her opinion freely.....even if it is a stupid opinion based upon ignorance? It appears that your archaeological BLADE is dull as hell. You just stated that NO EVIDENCE was found......a negative finding. While I have presented a sharp archaeological blade and demonstrated that evidence has been found that validates the Holy Scripture record found in Exdous thru Judges, and into 1 Kings.

Ignorance: Lacking knowledge.


You just stated that the science of Archaeology has found NO EVIDENCE....i.e., lacking knowledge.


That's mighty LIBERAL OF YOU..........thinking that NOT FINDING SOMETHING........a negative, is something, as it proves -0- or disproves nothing. Basic logical math. 0 + 0 still = -0-. Ya see..........objective evidence goes like this. You claim that archaeology provides no evidence.......and you claim that NO EVIDENCE is EVIDENCE? How does not finding any evidence negate what the Bible documents.......when archaeology has demonstrated (via actual findings) that the scriptures are presenting truth in other documented areas when there is evidence?

Now that's logic...........or rather the lack thereof. Only in the mind of a bigot is the accused asked to present evidence that proves his innocence when the prosecutor presents evidence of "NOTHING".......guilty until proven innocent?

Again. Use this evidence or rather NON EVIDENCE to prove anything.......especially that 600,000 Jews never existed.

I'm waiting. Proceed, demonstrate to us with objective archaeological findings that your accusation is true.

I think that you have as much chance using your evidence to prove that "unicorn's" and "fairy dust" are real.....after all archaeology has found NO evidence what so ever that they do not exist.

Question? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Or.......do you pack your lunch or ride to work?

Reality: If you lost your wallet..........and everyone searched and searched and found no evidence whatsoever of its location......does that mean that your wallet never existed in the first place? After all you are the only one claiming that you ever had a wallet in the first place. I guess you were lying because it was never found again.

Mr. Spock would be ashamed of you.

 

[surada]

Ain't it a grand thing that we live in a nation where everyone has the right to speak his/her opinion freely.....even if it is a stupid opinion based upon ignorance? It appears that your archaeological BLADE is dull as hell. You just stated that NO EVIDENCE was found......a negative finding. While I have presented a sharp archaeological blade and demonstrated that evidence has been found that validates the Holy Scripture record found in Exdous thru Judges, and into 1 Kings.

Ignorance: Lacking knowledge.


You just stated that the science of Archaeology has found NO EVIDENCE....i.e., lacking knowledge.


That's mighty LIBERAL OF YOU..........thinking that NOT FINDING SOMETHING........a negative, is something, as it proves -0- or disproves nothing. Basic logical math. 0 + 0 still = -0-. Ya see..........objective evidence goes like this. You claim that archaeology provides no evidence.......and you claim that NO EVIDENCE is EVIDENCE? How does not finding any evidence negate what the Bible documents.......when archaeology has demonstrated (via actual findings) that the scriptures are presenting truth in other documented areas when there is evidence?

Now that's logic...........or rather the lack thereof. Only in the mind of a bigot is the accused asked to present evidence that proves his innocence when the prosecutor presents evidence of "NOTHING".......guilty until proven innocent?

Again. Use this evidence or rather NON EVIDENCE to prove anything.......especially that 600,000 Jews never existed.

I'm waiting. Proceed, demonstrate to us with objective archaeological findings that your accusation is true.

I think that you have as much chance using your evidence to prove that "unicorn's" and "fairy dust" are real.....after all archaeology has found NO evidence what so ever that they do not exist.

Question? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Or.......do you pack your lunch or ride to work?

600,000 able bodied men and their wives, children, parents and siblings would mean 3 million people plus another couple of million herd animals. Sinai didn't have enough water or pasture to support them all. Remember that Sinai is only 135 miles across. Its a two week walk from Egypt to Canaan.

Its an epic story of redemption but its not history.

 

[Clyde 154]

600,000 able bodied men and their wives, children, parents and siblings would mean 3 million people plus another couple of million herd animals. Sinai didn't have enough water or pasture to support them all. Remember that Sinai is only 135 miles across. Its a two week walk from Egypt to Canaan.

Its an epic story of redemption but its not history.

Again...........how does not finding anything.......prove or disprove anything? Funny as Hell on one hand you want everyone to accept your opinion as truth based upon your idea of Prima Facie evidence, yet you reject objective evidence of actual archaeological findings? Priceless. Logic goes the other way. Prima Facie evidence only exists as truth if objective evidence to the contrary does not exist. Archaeology has presented numerous Objective, actually existing finds.....that have validated scripture records in some places in the books of Exodus thru Judges and into 1 Kings..........but you want your opinionated prima facie presentation to stand as evidence?

What? Are you suggesting that a God that could part the seas.......could not provide water and food to his people? Mana from Heaven? A miracle is called a miracle for a reason.......its SUPER NATURAL. Superior to Nature.......just how can you hope to disprove the Super (to) Nature (natural) via attempting to quantify it (MEASURE IT) via the NATURAL (inferior)? You can no more disprove a miracle than I can prove it. Where do you keep your Super Natural -0- Meter.........front pocket or back?

Again I must ask the question. About useless debates. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

If there never were any JEWS/HEBREWS.........then who the hell did Hitler Kill? Oh.......there never was a Holocaust?

 

[surada]

Again...........how does not finding anything.......prove or disprove anything. Funny as Hell on one hand you want everyone to accept your opinion as truth based upon your idea of Prima Facie evidence, yet you reject objective evidence of actual archaeological findings. Priceless.

The population of Egypt was only about 4 million.. You'd think they would notice if 3 million left.

There is zero archaeological evidence.

The Population of Jerusalem was quite small and it was less than 10 acres.. so what happened to the 3 million?

Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City

Ancient Jerusalem made such an enormous impact on Western civilization that it’s hard to fathom how small its population really was.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

 

[Clyde 154]

The population of Egypt was only about 4 million.. You'd think they would notice if 3 million left.

There is zero archaeological evidence.

The Population of Jerusalem was quite small and it was less than 10 acres.. so what happened to the 3 million?

Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City

Ancient Jerusalem made such an enormous impact on Western civilization that it’s hard to fathom how small its population really was.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

You said it. You have provided -0- evidence. Thanks for clearing that up. And Hitler never killed any people in a holocaust because the Jews/Hebrews never existed?

You'd THINK? You just stated your entire argument in a nutshell. You provide 0 evidence......yet you THINK you are right?

Thinking exists only in one place. Between your ears. You are easy. You repeated the same argument that has already been refuted with logical truth. Repeat it enough and it becomes truth?

Circular Logic: an argument based upon a logical fallacy and repeated ad nauseam.

 

[alang1216]

How does one disprove NOTHING? Basic logic: Its impossible to disprove a negative....i.e., something that has never existed.

I know you think you are being logical, reasonable, and rational but you're not. I'm talking about the 600,000 that left Egypt. You claimed that archeology backed up the Bible, and in some cases that is true, but in the case of the 600,000, it clearly does not. It is on those that make the claim to provide the evidence and I say there is no evidence for 600,000 Israelites leaving Egypt. The lack of archeological evidence doesn't prove they never existed but it asks the question as to why there is no such evidence.

I'm waiting. Proceed, demonstrate to us with objective archaeological findings that your accusation is true.

Wait no longer since the ball is in your court. What is the evidence for 600,000 Israelites leaving Egypt?

 

[Clyde 154]

I know you think you are being logical, reasonable, and rational but you're not. I'm talking about the 600,000 that left Egypt. You claimed that archeology backed up the Bible, and in some cases that is true, but in the case of the 600,000, it clearly does not. It is on those that make the claim to provide the evidence and I say there is no evidence for 600,000 Israelites leaving Egypt. The lack of archeological evidence doesn't prove they never existed but it asks the question as to why there is no such evidence.


Wait no longer since the ball is in your court. What is the evidence for 600,000 Israelites leaving Egypt?

The ole logical fallacy dodge. You have "falsely" claimed that you have provided "burden of proof". When you presented, "Archaeology has FOUND NO EVIDENCE........."

Ok.........so you admit to not presenting any evidence of an archaeological find that falsifies anything in the Holy Scriptures. Got it. I rest my case. You refuse to present any evidence because you have admitted to the "fact" that you presented a negative find as evidence........basically you presented NOTHING, as you clearly stated that, "Archaeology has found no EVIDENCE............." that proves or disproves anything. Archaeology found nothing........so you basically presented NO EVIDENCE. So you still believe in "unicorns" and "fairy dust".

FYI: Because you can't find something does not mean it never existed. Its a logical fallacy based upon circular logic.

Disproving a Negative: As "Carl Sagan" states (and I am sure that he was more intelligent than anyone on this board), "What may be presented without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence......" -- Carl Sagan

YOU ARE "DISMISSED". When I die and I am planted in the earth.........and someone might find my remains 1000s of years in the future, I hope that they do not claim that I am as old as the dirt in which I was found.

Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Batcat]

600,000 able bodied men and their wives, children, parents and siblings would mean 3 million people plus another couple of million herd animals. Sinai didn't have enough water or pasture to support them all. Remember that Sinai is only 135 miles across. Its a two week walk from Egypt to Canaan.

Its an epic story of redemption but its not history.

The numbers of people reported in the Bible often seems to in inflated.

This article suggests a possible reason why. …

Are the numbers in the Bible accurate? | GotQuestions.org

Are the numbers in the Bible accurate? In Numbers 1:45-46, how could Israel have an army this size?

www.gotquestions.org

***snip***

2) The Bible’s accuracy in numbers is related to a proper translation of the text. We’ll take the census numbers in Numbers 1 as an example (noting that the same can be applied to the census of Numbers 26):

In Numbers 1:21, the men of fighting age in Reuben’s tribe are “six and forty thousand and five hundred” (Young’s Literal Translation), rendered as “46,500” in almost every other translation. However, two words in this phrase are subject to variations. The Hebrew term translated “thousand” is used elsewhere in Scripture as a general reference to groups, not as a specific number. For example, the word is applied to tribes (Numbers 10:4), clans (Joshua 22:14), families (Joshua 22:21), and divisions (Numbers 1:16).

Further, the word translated “and” can also mean “or,” depending on the context. Exodus 21:15 and Exodus 21:17, for instance, use this word in a context in which it obviously means “or.”

So, if the word for “thousands” is a reference to family groups, and the second instance of the word for “and” is understood to mean “or,” then Numbers 1:21 would be translated “six and forty clans, or five hundred.” The tribe of Reuben, then, would have had 500 fighting men from 46 family groups.

3) Belief in the Bible’s accuracy in numbers allows for the possibility of scribal error. Numbers 1:46 gives the final tally of the troops from all the tribes of Israel: “The total number was 603,550.” That number, implying a total population of 2.4 million, is debated. But, if we assume a scribal error in the copying of this verse, the total military count would be “598 families with 5,550 men.” This number would be in keeping with the lower census numbers: the total population of Israelites would be about 22,200.

 

[alang1216]

The ole logical fallacy dodge. You have "falsely" claimed that you have provided "burden of proof". When you presented, "Archaeology has FOUND NO EVIDENCE........."

You must mistake me for another poster, I made no such claim to any "burden of proof". What I said was, and it is correct so far as I know, that archeology provides no evidence for an exodus of 600,000 people appearing anywhere in the Middle East.

Ok.........so you admit to not presenting any evidence of an archaeological find that falsifies anything in the Holy Scriptures. Got it. I rest my case.

So you are asking me to prove a negative? We both know that is impossible.

You refuse to present any evidence because you have admitted to the "fact" that you presented a negative find as evidence........basically you presented NOTHING, as you clearly stated that, "Archaeology has found no EVIDENCE............." that proves or disproves anything. Archaeology found nothing........so you basically presented NO EVIDENCE. So you still believe in "unicorns" and "fairy dust".

Proofs are for math and a lack of evidence IS evidence. What I've said is that there is no archeological evidence for an exodus of 600,000 people appearing anywhere in the Middle East. That is a fact. If there is other evidence you'd like to present I'm happy to listen but I don't consider the story of the Exodus to be 100% credible.

Remember it was written down by a group, living outside of Israel, that had an agenda. They were hoping to return to Israel and wanted to be welcomed and respected by the Jews still there.

 

[Viktor]

The numbers of people reported in the Bible often seems to in inflated.

This article suggests a possible reason why. …

Are the numbers in the Bible accurate? | GotQuestions.org

Are the numbers in the Bible accurate? In Numbers 1:45-46, how could Israel have an army this size?

www.gotquestions.org

***snip***

2) The Bible’s accuracy in numbers is related to a proper translation of the text. We’ll take the census numbers in Numbers 1 as an example (noting that the same can be applied to the census of Numbers 26):

In Numbers 1:21, the men of fighting age in Reuben’s tribe are “six and forty thousand and five hundred” (Young’s Literal Translation), rendered as “46,500” in almost every other translation. However, two words in this phrase are subject to variations. The Hebrew term translated “thousand” is used elsewhere in Scripture as a general reference to groups, not as a specific number. For example, the word is applied to tribes (Numbers 10:4), clans (Joshua 22:14), families (Joshua 22:21), and divisions (Numbers 1:16).

Further, the word translated “and” can also mean “or,” depending on the context. Exodus 21:15 and Exodus 21:17, for instance, use this word in a context in which it obviously means “or.”

So, if the word for “thousands” is a reference to family groups, and the second instance of the word for “and” is understood to mean “or,” then Numbers 1:21 would be translated “six and forty clans, or five hundred.” The tribe of Reuben, then, would have had 500 fighting men from 46 family groups.

3) Belief in the Bible’s accuracy in numbers allows for the possibility of scribal error. Numbers 1:46 gives the final tally of the troops from all the tribes of Israel: “The total number was 603,550.” That number, implying a total population of 2.4 million, is debated. But, if we assume a scribal error in the copying of this verse, the total military count would be “598 families with 5,550 men.” This number would be in keeping with the lower census numbers: the total population of Israelites would be about 22,200.

In ancient literature, it was common practice to exaggerate for effect. This was understood by ancient writers and not considered dishonest. Moreover, you need to understand that both testaments have been translated numerous times and the translators were not always fluent in the tongue they were translating. The King James bible contains numerous mistranslations of the ancient Hebrew of the Old Testament. What they translated as "Thou shalt not kill" was actually "Thou shalt not murder". Jewish law allows capital punishment.

 

[Clyde 154]

You must mistake me for another poster, I made no such claim to any "burden of proof". What I said was, and it is correct so far as I know, that archeology provides no evidence for an exodus of 600,000 people appearing anywhere in the Middle East.


So you are asking me to prove a negative? We both know that is impossible.


Proofs are for math and a lack of evidence IS evidence. What I've said is that there is no archeological evidence for an exodus of 600,000 people appearing anywhere in the Middle East. That is a fact. If there is other evidence you'd like to present I'm happy to listen but I don't consider the story of the Exodus to be 100% credible.

Remember it was written down by a group, living outside of Israel, that had an agenda. They were hoping to return to Israel and wanted to be welcomed and respected by the Jews still there.

More circular logic? Lack of evidence is evidence of nothing. It might be a fact that no evidence if found........but its not a fact that because something is not found that proves what you are looking for never existed. Thus, Sagan's statement stands as truth, "What may be presented without evidence (you just confessed that no evidence existed and claimed the logical fallacy "lack of evidence is evidence"...........can be dismissed without evidence." Again.........You are dismissed.

You are especially dismissed because other Archaeological finds such as "The Mernepath Stele", The "Moabite Stone".......and communications found in the 14th century between Pharoah "Akhenathen" and minor rulers mentioning the city of "Jerusalem" known to the Egyptian's as "Urusalin". Then there is the Tel Dan Stele. These evidences prove that actual EVIDENCE does exist.

Thus.......evidence that supports portions of the Scriptures, Exodus thru Judges and into Kings proves there is evidence of Jews in Egyptian nations. And the number is unknown because archaeology describes over 300 tribes of peoples (Israel was consisted of different tribes during this time period of Nomads without a central government or King) these 300 camp sites were found to exist in the "Judean Highlands". Thus, there is evidence of a large number of Nomadic Tribes. And then there is archaeological evidence of the defeat of a nation with a king form the House of David.

 

[alang1216]

More circular logic? Lack of evidence is evidence of nothing. It might be a fact that no evidence if found........but its not a fact that because something is not found that proves what you are looking for never existed. Thus, Sagan's statement stands as truth, "What may be presented without evidence (you just confessed that no evidence existed and claimed the logical fallacy "lack of evidence is evidence"...........can be dismissed without evidence." Again.........You are dismissed.

If you told me a large meteor landed in my neighborhood and I couldn't find a crater or anyone who witnessed it, I'd say that the lack of evidence is evidence.

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” was a phrase made popular by Carl Sagan

You are especially dismissed because other Archaeological finds such as "The Mernepath Stele", The "Moabite Stone".......and communications found in the 14th century between Pharoah "Akhenathen" and minor rulers mentioning the city of "Jerusalem" known to the Egyptian's as "Urusalin". Then there is the Tel Dan Stele. These evidences prove that actual EVIDENCE does exist.

I never claimed there was NO truth in the OT, just none concerning a large exodus.

Thus.......evidence that supports portions of the Scriptures, Exodus thru Judges and into Kings proves there is evidence of Jews in Egyptian nations.

There were undoubtedly Jews in Egypt. Egyptian records also show they were there well after the period of the exodus acting as mercenaries for the Egyptians on their southern border.

 

[AsherN]

The numbers of people reported in the Bible often seems to in inflated.

This article suggests a possible reason why. …

Are the numbers in the Bible accurate? | GotQuestions.org

Are the numbers in the Bible accurate? In Numbers 1:45-46, how could Israel have an army this size?

www.gotquestions.org

***snip***

2) The Bible’s accuracy in numbers is related to a proper translation of the text. We’ll take the census numbers in Numbers 1 as an example (noting that the same can be applied to the census of Numbers 26):

In Numbers 1:21, the men of fighting age in Reuben’s tribe are “six and forty thousand and five hundred” (Young’s Literal Translation), rendered as “46,500” in almost every other translation. However, two words in this phrase are subject to variations. The Hebrew term translated “thousand” is used elsewhere in Scripture as a general reference to groups, not as a specific number. For example, the word is applied to tribes (Numbers 10:4), clans (Joshua 22:14), families (Joshua 22:21), and divisions (Numbers 1:16).

Further, the word translated “and” can also mean “or,” depending on the context. Exodus 21:15 and Exodus 21:17, for instance, use this word in a context in which it obviously means “or.”

So, if the word for “thousands” is a reference to family groups, and the second instance of the word for “and” is understood to mean “or,” then Numbers 1:21 would be translated “six and forty clans, or five hundred.” The tribe of Reuben, then, would have had 500 fighting men from 46 family groups.

3) Belief in the Bible’s accuracy in numbers allows for the possibility of scribal error. Numbers 1:46 gives the final tally of the troops from all the tribes of Israel: “The total number was 603,550.” That number, implying a total population of 2.4 million, is debated. But, if we assume a scribal error in the copying of this verse, the total military count would be “598 families with 5,550 men.” This number would be in keeping with the lower census numbers: the total population of Israelites would be about 22,200.

Torah says 600 "elef", usually translated as thousand, but could also mean "squad" typically 10 men, so 6,000 fighting men, 24,000 people.

 

[Batcat]

Torah says 600 "elef", usually translated as thousand, but could also mean "squad" typically 10 men, so 6,000 fighting men, 24,000 people.

Translating the exact meaning of Hebrew words in the Old Testament is often difficult if not close to impossible. Plus the King James Version was created in 1611 and the meaning of some of the english words have changed since then.

Translations of the Hebrew Bible are not correct

From the blog of Israel Drazin at The Times of Israel

blogs.timesofisrael.com