The 20-year-old woman drowned after her father stopped lifeguards saving her at a beach in Dubai as

[Roudy]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

 

[Pogo]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Do you actually get through your day with no clue as to what a cum hoc fallacy is?

 

[Pogo]

>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings​

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.



In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better

There is nothing "Muslim" about FGM. There's FGM going on where there is Islam; there's FGM going on where there isn't Islam. There's Islam going on where there's FGM; and there's Islam going on where there's no FGM.

You just admitted it PREDATES the religion. It predates ALL current religions.

"Lying"? Go forth and verily fuck yourself.

>> Gynaecologists in 19th-century Europe and the United States removed the clitoris to treat insanity and masturbation.[161] British doctor Robert Thomas suggested clitoridectomy as a cure for nymphomania in 1813.[162] The first reported clitoridectomy in the West, described in The Lancet in 1825, was performed in 1822 in Berlin by Karl Ferdinand von Graefe, on a 15-year-old girl who was masturbating excessively.[163]

Isaac Baker Brown, an English gynaecologist, president of the Medical Society of London, and co-founder in 1845 of St. Mary's Hospital in London, believed that masturbation, or "unnatural irritation" of the clitoris, caused peripheral excitement of the pubic nerve, which led to hysteria, spinal irritation, fits, idiocy, mania and death.[164] He therefore "set to work to remove the clitoris whenever he had the opportunity of doing so," according to his obituary in the Medical Times and Gazette in 1873.[165] Brown performed several clitoridectomies between 1859 and 1866. When he published his views in On the Curability of Certain Forms of Insanity, Epilepsy, Catalepsy, and Hysteria in Females (1866), doctors in London accused him of quackery and expelled him from the Obstetrical Society.[166]

In the United States J. Marion Sims followed Brown's work, and in 1862 slit the neck of a woman's uterus and amputated her clitoris, "for the relief of the nervous or hysterical condition as recommended by Baker Brown," after the patient complained of menstrual pain, convulsions and bladder problems.[167] A. J. Bloch, a surgeon in New Orleans, removed the clitoris of a two-year-old girl who was reportedly masturbating.[168] According to a 1985 paper in the Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey, clitoridectomy was performed in the US into the 1960s to treat hysteria, erotomania and lesbianism.[169] << (Wiki)

The origins of female circumcision is [sic] rooted too distantly in human history to be fruitfully traced. The ritual has always been so widespread that it cannot have arisen from a single origin. Although always entangled in beliefs and superstitions with a mystical or religious background, the various peoples practicing it do not conform to a common racial, social or religious pattern. As a matter of fact no continent in the world has been exempt.

Like male circumcision, the female operation has been widely practiced by Semitic peoples. Many Moslem peoples and Egyptians still practice this rite. It is believed that the Israelites at one time also circumcised their female children.2 This is significant, for our current medical fad of infant male circumcision has come about partially as a result of Jewish influence. If the Jews still circumcised their female infants, perhaps we too would be circumcising our baby girls.

The practice of female genital mutilation has been widespread throughout many parts of the world, although it has not been practiced nearly to the extent of male circumcision.

In Africa, the ancient Egyptians, the Mohammedans, the Gallas, the Abyssinians, the Bantu tribes of Kenya and many other African tribes;. In Asia the ancient and modern Arabs and the Malays of the East Indian Archipelago;. In Australia by many tribes;. Some Indian tribes in eastern Mexico, Peru, and Western Brazil; and the Skopizy of Russia are listed among the people who have, and in some cases still dopractice the female operation.3 <<​

from: "Circumcision - the Painful Dilemma"

____________________​

Cultural, religious and social causes
The causes of female genital mutilation include a mix of cultural, religious and social factors within families and communities.

• Where FGM is a social convention, the social pressure to conform to what others do and have been doing is a strong motivation to perpetuate the practice.
• FGM is often considered a necessary part of raising a girl properly, and a way to prepare her for adulthood and marriage.
• FGM is often motivated by beliefs about what is considered proper sexual behaviour, linking procedures to premarital virginity and marital fidelity. FGM is in many communities believed to reduce a woman's libido and therefore believed to help her resist "illicit" sexual acts. When a vaginal opening is covered or narrowed (type 3 above), the fear of the pain of opening it, and the fear that this will be found out, is expected to further discourage "illicit" sexual intercourse among women with this type of FGM.
• FGM is associated with cultural ideals of femininity and modesty, which include the notion that girls are “clean” and "beautiful" after removal of body parts that are considered "male" or "unclean".
• Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
• Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.
• Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to upholding the practice.
• In most societies, FGM is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.
• In some societies, recent adoption of the practice is linked to copying the traditions of neighbouring groups. Sometimes it has started as part of a wider religious or traditional revival movement.
• In some societies, FGM is practised by new groups when they move into areas where the local population practice FGM. --- World Health Organization

___________________________​

>> According to Forward, a leading UK charity that campaigns to end FGM, the practice takes place in many cultures and occurs in several different religious communities. However, mainstream spiritual leaders have denied that the practice stems from religion. Samira believes the desire to control women's sexuality lies behind it.

"I think women here are scared their daughters will become too westernised and not get married – that they will have boyfriends and go out, and this is why they have it done." << --- Mothers Need to Say No

"Islamic", my ass.

your hysterical rant is meaningless-----today---in the year 2015----FGM is 99% muslim --------Christmas trees are 100% Christian and
Matzoh balls are 100% jewish. ------well no----99% jewish. Who invented sliced bread is no issue either

FGM is not "Muslim" or any other religion. I just gave you SEVERAL (more) links demonstrating that.

And Christmas trees are not Christian either. Feel free to quote me a Bible passage that even mentions it.

You don't know your anthropological ass from a hole in the ground.

 

[Sally]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

 

[Sally]

>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings​

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.



In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better

The sad thing is that FGM is being done right here in the U.S. (as well as honor killings), and with the number of immigrants rising, the number of FGMs is rising dramatically. If people want to do such a thing to their own daughters, then this is not the country for them. They should go back to the country of their origin and carry on just as they have in the past.

 

[Pogo]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

 

[Pogo]

>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings​

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.



In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better

The sad thing is that FGM is being done right here in the U.S. (as well as honor killings), and with the number of immigrants rising, the number of FGMs is rising dramatically. If people want to do such a thing to their own daughters, then this is not the country for them. They should go back to the country of their origin and carry on just as they have in the past.

Immigration in general is by definition dominated by the lower economic classes. The higher classes, after all, have less reason to emigrate since they're doing fine. That means the flow tends to be the poorer, the less educated, the more tradition-minded. Old traditions are going to come with them. They have little else until they can find that economic bump they came for.

FGM was going on here in the 19th century purportedly for "female hysteria" as I already posted. Again its roots are sociocultural -- a device to keep women down.

 

[Sally]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Exactly.

Much of what is perceived to be 'Islamic' is actually not.

 

[Sally]

>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings​

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.



In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better

The sad thing is that FGM is being done right here in the U.S. (as well as honor killings), and with the number of immigrants rising, the number of FGMs is rising dramatically. If people want to do such a thing to their own daughters, then this is not the country for them. They should go back to the country of their origin and carry on just as they have in the past.

Immigration in general is by definition dominated by the lower economic classes. The higher classes, after all, have less reason to emigrate since they're doing fine. That means the flow tends to be the poorer, the less educated, the more tradition-minded. Old traditions are going to come with them. They have little else until they can find that economic bump they came for.

FGM was going on here in the 19th century purportedly for "female hysteria" as I already posted. Again its roots are sociocultural -- a device to keep women down.

That's why some of these "lower class" people have the money for airplane fare to send their daughters for FGM in the country of their origin.

 

[Pogo]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

I already searched those articles as soon as you posted this 19-year-old story. Found nothing like that at all.

But it did occur to me that if some such actually exists, it could be linked. Funny it doesn't seem to show up.

 

[Sally]

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

I already searched those articles. Found nothing like that.
But it did occur to me that if some such actually exists, it could be linked. Funny it doesn't seem to show up.

Keep on looking. I wouldn't have called him an ex-pat if I didn't read it. Regardless, does it matter what he was -- a tourist or an ex-pat -- when he interfered with the lifeguards doing their duty.

 

[Pogo]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Exactly.

Much of what is perceived to be 'Islamic' is actually not.

He's dealing in his classic cum hoc fallacy. Sees an orange car go by and concludes, "all cars are orange".

 

[Pogo]

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

I already searched those articles. Found nothing like that.
But it did occur to me that if some such actually exists, it could be linked. Funny it doesn't seem to show up.

Keep on looking. I wouldn't have called him an ex-pat if I didn't read it. Regardless, does it matter what he was -- a tourist or an ex-pat -- when he interfered with the lifeguards doing their duty.

I have no reason to "keep on looking" -- it's not my claim. When I make one -- I back it up.

No it really doesn't matter. What I attacked was Roudy's cum hoc fallacy. Where the guy's from has no bearing on that.

 

[irosie91]

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself.

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Exactly.

Much of what is perceived to be 'Islamic' is actually not.

yeah? like what? I cannot wait to hear what YOU imagine "people think is Islamic but is not"-----------oh I got it ---MOSQUES ARE NOT ISLAMIC-----JIHAD IS NOT ISLAMIC ----MECCA IS A PLAYGROUND FOR EVERYONE

 

[Sally]

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

I already searched those articles. Found nothing like that.
But it did occur to me that if some such actually exists, it could be linked. Funny it doesn't seem to show up.

Keep on looking. I wouldn't have called him an ex-pat if I didn't read it. Regardless, does it matter what he was -- a tourist or an ex-pat -- when he interfered with the lifeguards doing their duty.

I have no reason to "keep on looking" -- it's not my claim. When I make one -- I back it up.

No it really doesn't matter. What I attacked was Roudy's cum hoc fallacy. Where the guy's from has no bearing on that.

Do you have anything else to contribute to this Middle East forum besides trying to win an argument?

 

[Pogo]

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

I already searched those articles. Found nothing like that.
But it did occur to me that if some such actually exists, it could be linked. Funny it doesn't seem to show up.

Keep on looking. I wouldn't have called him an ex-pat if I didn't read it. Regardless, does it matter what he was -- a tourist or an ex-pat -- when he interfered with the lifeguards doing their duty.

I have no reason to "keep on looking" -- it's not my claim. When I make one -- I back it up.

No it really doesn't matter. What I attacked was Roudy's cum hoc fallacy. Where the guy's from has no bearing on that.

Do you have anything else to contribute to this Middle East forum besides trying to win an argument?

What the fuck, I've contributed several dozen links already to put down the Ignorami. Done it before too, which is the weird part.

What the hell kind of "contribution" is a blatant cum hoc fallacy?

Maybe I should go dig up a story from 1996 and claim "I read somewhere" more about it than there is.

 

[Sally]

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

I already searched those articles. Found nothing like that.
But it did occur to me that if some such actually exists, it could be linked. Funny it doesn't seem to show up.

Keep on looking. I wouldn't have called him an ex-pat if I didn't read it. Regardless, does it matter what he was -- a tourist or an ex-pat -- when he interfered with the lifeguards doing their duty.

I have no reason to "keep on looking" -- it's not my claim. When I make one -- I back it up.

No it really doesn't matter. What I attacked was Roudy's cum hoc fallacy. Where the guy's from has no bearing on that.

Do you have anything else to contribute to this Middle East forum besides trying to win an argument?

What the fuck, I've contributed several dozen links already to put down the Ignorami. Done it before too, which is the weird part.

What the hell kind of "contribution" is a blatant cum hoc fallacy?

Maybe I should go dig up a story from 1996 and claim "I read somewhere" more about it than there is.

Calm down, Pogo. You are stressing yourself over this. Is it really that important to you? I meant do you have anything else to contribute to this forum. Maybe you can tell us about the Dubai nightlife. Surely you must like a good time.

 

[Roudy]

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.

Holy shit you're bigger dumbass than I thought. Cave men did a lot of things that was passed on. Again the point is, THIS BEHAVIOR IS MOST PREVALENT IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. Spin it any way you want, you're still going to arrive at this basic fact that it is Islam that is creating this culture.

Regardless of the UAE being under Sharia Law, the father could have been arrested because he was interfering with letting the lifeguards doing their duty, which means they wouldn't care if he was a Muslim or not. The father is described as an ex-pat, which means he is working there and is not a tourist.

The article does not say anyting about "ex-pat" or "working there" or "not a tourist". It only describes "an Asian man" and his family. I checked all the way back to the original, which is nineteen years old. You should read your own links.

The point of the UAE being under Islamic law has nothing to do with "caring whether he's a Muslim" or not. It has nothing to do with the man at all. The point was Roudy came in here trying to establish Islam as a causation of HBV. Therefore, if it is what he says it is, an Islamic law government would have no problem with what the man did. After all it would be "Islamic" in his perverse fantasy.

But it isn't. These are ancient cultural -- not religious, cultural -- social structure practices that predate Islam and the rest of the modern monotheistic religions by thousands of years. They have nothing to do with religion. That's why I challenged him to explain the contradiction. He can't do it. He runs away because he's too obtuse to admit he was wrong.

Exactly.

Much of what is perceived to be 'Islamic' is actually not.

He's dealing in his classic cum hoc fallacy. Sees an orange car go by and concludes, "all cars are orange".

Nah....you're just a full a shit ignorant apologist who wants everybody to be in a total state of denial just like yourself.

Eat some Shiite and then eat this:

In its latest annual “Global Gender Gap” report, the World Economic Forum (WEF) evaluated 136 countries. Pakistan was second from the bottom of the list.

Of the 20 countries at the bottom of the list, 17 were Islamic – Yemen, Pakistan, Chad, Syria, Mauritania, Cote d’Ivoire, Iran, Morocco, Mali, Saudi Arabia, Benin, Egypt, Algeria, Lebanon, Oman, Turkey and Jordan. The three non-Muslim countries in the bottom 20 were Nepal, Ethiopia and Fiji.

Resolution 1327 (2003) of the Council of Europe states that:
"The Assembly notes that whilst so-called “honour crimes” emanate from cultural and not religious roots and are perpetrated worldwide (mainly in patriarchal societies or communities), the majority of reported cases in Europe have been amongst Muslim or migrant Muslim communities"

So in other words, let's not offend Muslims, but it's only Muslims.

 

[Roudy]

Have you ever thought, Pogo, that there are other articles besides this one which described the man as an ex-pat. Don't you think that ex-pats working there take their families on picnics like this one did? There was an incident just the other week on the boardwalk at Venice Beach. There was a lifeguard on a tower on the boardwalk who told three people to stop smoking. They started up with the lifeguard and were arrested.

I already searched those articles. Found nothing like that.
But it did occur to me that if some such actually exists, it could be linked. Funny it doesn't seem to show up.

Keep on looking. I wouldn't have called him an ex-pat if I didn't read it. Regardless, does it matter what he was -- a tourist or an ex-pat -- when he interfered with the lifeguards doing their duty.

I have no reason to "keep on looking" -- it's not my claim. When I make one -- I back it up.

No it really doesn't matter. What I attacked was Roudy's cum hoc fallacy. Where the guy's from has no bearing on that.

Do you have anything else to contribute to this Middle East forum besides trying to win an argument?

What the fuck, I've contributed several dozen links already to put down the Ignorami. Done it before too, which is the weird part.

What the hell kind of "contribution" is a blatant cum hoc fallacy?

Maybe I should go dig up a story from 1996 and claim "I read somewhere" more about it than there is.

You've contributed jackshit but apologize, justify, and whitewash the barbaric way that Muslim women are treated in Muslim societies. You've brought up an English king from 500 years ago, and some meaningless biblical verses and compared THAT, to Muslim behavior towards women, TODAY. You liberal whack jobs are sooo pro women's rights, aren't you? Ha ha ha.