Sodom and Gomorrah

[Ropey]

So, you got a teaching that God is wrathful, Ropey. For me, I didn't need a God like that.

The people in my own family were wrathful enough.

I got a teaching that my will can lead me to places where G-d is wrathful to those who have engendered his wrath. Or my will can lead me to places where G-d is pleased.

I'm sorry to hear that you grew up in a wrathful environment.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So, you got a teaching that God is wrathful, Ropey. For me, I didn't need a God like that.

The people in my own family were wrathful enough.

I got a teaching that my will can lead me to places where G-d is wrathful to those who have engendered his wrath. Or my will can lead me to places where G-d is pleased.

I'm sorry to hear that you grew up in a wrathful environment.

Me too. It's one reason I dropped God. Who needs a judging, angry God? Not me.

 

[Ropey]

So, you got a teaching that God is wrathful, Ropey. For me, I didn't need a God like that.

The people in my own family were wrathful enough.

I got a teaching that my will can lead me to places where G-d is wrathful to those who have engendered his wrath. Or my will can lead me to places where G-d is pleased.

I'm sorry to hear that you grew up in a wrathful environment.

Me too. It's one reason I dropped God. Who needs a judging, angry God? Not me.

Whatever "it" is, "it" has turned you so inward that you are tightened up like a knot.

Sad, that.

 

[Newby]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

I've also been Lutheran and Catholic and I've never heard it explained that way. As a matter of fact I've never heard any preaching or any sermon on being gay at all. This story is about the evil of lust, lust comes in many forms, and lust without love, the search for only physical pleasure without engagement of the heart, is considered a sin.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Of course it is possible to have different viewpoints. Especially when it involves a story like Sodom and Gomorrah. And when I teach it I teach all of them and leave it to the students to decide.

Is it exactly as it is written in the O.T. manuscripts? I have no problem with anybody who wants to believe that and do not try to shake anybody's faith about that.

Is it history? I teach it as possibly based on a historical event and possibly being supported by archeological evidence currently in progress even if the story itself is all or mostly fiction.

Is it metaphor or symbolic or myth? I give all the evidence for why all those are plausible theories.

Is it allegory (i.e. a story to illustrate a teaching?) There is plenty of reason to go with that theory too.

The bottom line is we cannot know for sure. Now we look through a glass darkly and can only surmise. Then we will be face to face with those who know the answers and we will know too.

The one thing I insist on, however, is that the class consider the story through the eyes of those who wrote it and from the perspective of their time and culture and how they understood God.

By the time the lesson is ended, everybody in the class will have opportunity to know what is in the story and what is not in the story and will have a little better understanding of the mind, beliefs, customs, and faith of an ancient people all those years ago.

and it's possible they could come to the same conclusion as Joe did, without being anti-religion.

Very possible if they aren't christians, imo.

No, you have to be really angry and filled with hate to intentionally belittle or demean somebody else's faith in God or tell them they're stupid or wrong to believe it. Nobody in my classes would do that. They were there to learn. I saw to it they had the opportunity to do so.

Agree to disagree. I can see how someone would be anti-god and anti-religion in a story that includes a god murdering many people and a father banging his 2 daughters. If you can see that story as being good, there's plenty of people who could see that as being bad.

How someone was raised from a religious point of view will have a big impact on how they view the story. If someone was raised as the Bible being good and the god of Abraham being good, they'll have already assumed what god did was righteous before they even read the story, if you go in without those built in assumptions then one could easily come to a different conclusion.

 

[Gadawg73]

Which is why you are still a loon - even if you have changed your name....

What was her name before?

You can't tell? Allie Baba, or Allie Babble...take your pic....

Really, YA THINK???

 

[Sky Dancer]

What was her name before?

You can't tell? Allie Baba, or Allie Babble...take your pic....

Really, YA THINK???

That would make a lot of sense.

 

[Gadawg73]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

I've also been Lutheran and Catholic and I've never heard it explained that way. As a matter of fact I've never heard any preaching or any sermon on being gay at all. This story is about the evil of lust, lust comes in many forms, and lust without love, the search for only physical pleasure without engagement of the heart, is considered a sin.

The Lutheran church I now go to is an accepting and open church. We treat gays and lesbians the way God wants us to.
If you have never heard any preaching or sermon in a church on being gay then you have never been south or west of New Jersey or east of Nevada.
I could show you 107 within 20 miles of where I live.
But I am pleased to state that even the southern Baptists now acknowledge it as same sex attraction and that folks are born with it. Most of them have dropped the idiotic catch phrase "they learn it,it is a choice and they are not born with it" BS. They admit they are born with it but state the Bible says not to act on it. Not all of them but a lot and I know many that adamantly oppose it in their religous life but do not judge in their life in society.
That is probably you. I disagree but we each have our own religous beliefs. As long as folks get equal civil rights I could care less.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

I've also been Lutheran and Catholic and I've never heard it explained that way. As a matter of fact I've never heard any preaching or any sermon on being gay at all. This story is about the evil of lust, lust comes in many forms, and lust without love, the search for only physical pleasure without engagement of the heart, is considered a sin.

That's one of the most liberal interpretations I've ever heard of the Sodom and Gommorah story.

I wish I'd been taught that way instead of the same way ABS was taught.

Your interpretation of the story is very compatible with Buddhist teachings on sexual conduct.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I got a teaching that my will can lead me to places where G-d is wrathful to those who have engendered his wrath. Or my will can lead me to places where G-d is pleased.

I'm sorry to hear that you grew up in a wrathful environment.

Me too. It's one reason I dropped God. Who needs a judging, angry God? Not me.

Whatever "it" is, "it" has turned you so inward that you are tightened up like a knot.

Sad, that.

That's not true, Ropey. I'm not "turned so inward that I am ightened up like a knot" inside ALL the time.

I have my flaws and my challenges like any other human being. One flaw I have can be seen in my posting. I read a post too quickly and then "pounce" on one part of it. I jump to conclusions. I have a hot temper.

I work on it. I'm learning to just sit with it, and be with it. So far, today, no negativity. I read some things in the Flame Zone that I may have normally bit the bait on and didn't.

Little by little.

 

[Gadawg73]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

I've also been Lutheran and Catholic and I've never heard it explained that way. As a matter of fact I've never heard any preaching or any sermon on being gay at all. This story is about the evil of lust, lust comes in many forms, and lust without love, the search for only physical pleasure without engagement of the heart, is considered a sin.

Very good. That is pretty much what I was taught.

 

[Ropey]

Me too. It's one reason I dropped God. Who needs a judging, angry God? Not me.

Whatever "it" is, "it" has turned you so inward that you are tightened up like a knot.

Sad, that.

That's not true, Ropey. I'm not "turned so inward that I am ightened up like a knot" inside ALL the time.

I have my flaws and my challenges like any other human being. One flaw I have can be seen in my posting. I read a post too quickly and then "pounce" on one part of it. I jump to conclusions. I have a hot temper.

I work on it. I'm learning to just sit with it, and be with it. So far, today, no negativity. I read some things in the Flame Zone that I may have normally bit the bait on and didn't.

Little by little.

I did not say "All the time". I have learned more about how to respond online from the flame zone than anywhere else here.

The flame zone is the learning curve and the Romper room is the practice zone.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Whatever "it" is, "it" has turned you so inward that you are tightened up like a knot.

Sad, that.

That's not true, Ropey. I'm not "turned so inward that I am ightened up like a knot" inside ALL the time.

I have my flaws and my challenges like any other human being. One flaw I have can be seen in my posting. I read a post too quickly and then "pounce" on one part of it. I jump to conclusions. I have a hot temper.

I work on it. I'm learning to just sit with it, and be with it. So far, today, no negativity. I read some things in the Flame Zone that I may have normally bit the bait on and didn't.

Little by little.

I did not say "All the time". I have learned more about how to respond online from the flame zone than anywhere else here.

The flame zone is the learning curve and the Romper room is the practice zone.

It may be for you, but it isn't for me. My aspiration is to stay away from there this year.

 

[koshergrl]

I think it was pretty much created with you in mind, Sky. If you quit frequenting it, it will die a natural death...

 

[Newby]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

I've also been Lutheran and Catholic and I've never heard it explained that way. As a matter of fact I've never heard any preaching or any sermon on being gay at all. This story is about the evil of lust, lust comes in many forms, and lust without love, the search for only physical pleasure without engagement of the heart, is considered a sin.

The Lutheran church I now go to is an accepting and open church. We treat gays and lesbians the way God wants us to.
If you have never heard any preaching or sermon in a church on being gay then you have never been south or west of New Jersey or east of Nevada.
I could show you 107 within 20 miles of where I live.
But I am pleased to state that even the southern Baptists now acknowledge it as same sex attraction and that folks are born with it. Most of them have dropped the idiotic catch phrase "they learn it,it is a choice and they are not born with it" BS. They admit they are born with it but state the Bible says not to act on it. Not all of them but a lot and I know many that adamantly oppose it in their religous life but do not judge in their life in society.
That is probably you. I disagree but we each have our own religous beliefs. As long as folks get equal civil rights I could care less.

I'm in PA, and I haven't attended church in other areas that I've been so I can only speak for where I've been. But, I've also attended many different types of denominations and have never heard any gay bashing whatsoever. My sister is a member of a Lutheran church and they have a lesbian couple who have an adopted son as part of their congregation, their picture is even in the church congrestional book. The truly fundamental churches are far and few between. At the church that I attend now it's a mixed bag, some believe being gay is a choice, some believe it's during fetal development, but none condemn them or preach against it openly. There is no one who is without sin. I don't 'oppose' it personally or socially, it has nothing to do with me, so why would I?

 

[ABikerSailor]

If you people think that Christian churches are so tolerant, come to Amarillo (the buckle of the Bible Belt) sometime.

 

[Foxfyre]

If you people think that Christian churches are so tolerant, come to Amarillo (the buckle of the Bible Belt) sometime.

Finished growing up, got my first full time job other than summer jobs during college, got married (in the church), and had my first kid just 70 miles south of there and have lots of relatives all over the Panhandle. Many if not most attend evangelical and/or fundamentalist churches. No gay bashing from any of them that I'm aware of.

 

[ABikerSailor]

If you people think that Christian churches are so tolerant, come to Amarillo (the buckle of the Bible Belt) sometime.

Finished growing up, got my first full time job other than summer jobs during college, got married (in the church), and had my first kid just 70 miles south of there and have lots of relatives all over the Panhandle. Many if not most attend evangelical and/or fundamentalist churches. No gay bashing from any of them that I'm aware of.

I actually LIVE in Amarillo, and yeah.......I've heard it from a couple of churches, and quite a few church goers.

Not to say that things haven't gotten a bit better since the 70's and 80's, because the climate for gays has improved.

But not by much........

 

[Foxfyre]

If you people think that Christian churches are so tolerant, come to Amarillo (the buckle of the Bible Belt) sometime.

Finished growing up, got my first full time job other than summer jobs during college, got married (in the church), and had my first kid just 70 miles south of there and have lots of relatives all over the Panhandle. Many if not most attend evangelical and/or fundamentalist churches. No gay bashing from any of them that I'm aware of.

I actually LIVE in Amarillo, and yeah.......I've heard it from a couple of churches, and quite a few church goers.

Not to say that things haven't gotten a bit better since the 70's and 80's, because the climate for gays has improved.

But not by much........

Well you are speaking from your own experience and I have no basis to challenge that. All I can say is that my LARGE contingency of West Texas/Panhandle/South Plains friends, relatives, and former colleagues seem no more anti-gay or homophobic than the general population, and I see very little of that in the general population. My "God son" and his partner (who is my favorite Facebook game buddy), my senior staffer from an agency I headed in Kansas, my beloved former secretary here in Albuquerque, and our next door neighbors, all gay, all say it is so much better than it once was.

So yeah you are going to run into a few anti-gay or homophobic people, a few racists, a few anti-Christian or anti-religion types, a few people prejudiced against fat people or bikers or accordian players or liberals or conservatives or Republicans or Democrats as you go through life. It is a fact of life. Probably all of us are unreasonably or unobjectively prejudiced about something or hold a position that others will label prejudice or bigotry or whatever. And very few will be malicious or will intend anybody any harm because of their prejudices.

I allow people to be who they are, warts, prejudices, fantasies, phobias, and all unless they are intentionally hurting themselves or others. That is my definition of tolerance.

And dragging the subject back to the thread topic, the people of the Old Testament had some different views of the Law, right and wrong, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous than we do. I allow tolerance for that too. (But in my opinion, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality.)

 

[Ropey]

My father taught me that this story was a proof in the differentiation between one man choosing to sin (against righteousness) and a group sinning....

He told me that the power (connection to G-d) in congregation is greater than one alone. In other words, when man congregates to worship, the voice is louder and is what is pleasing to the L-rd.

When man congregates to do what is not pleasing to the L-rd, that also is louder. A community is louder. A city is louder. A culture is louder. A globe is loudest. I was told that what is pleasing is still greater to the L-rd. When it isn't, then G-d will come back and will not be coming back with peace/love and Woodstock in H-s mind and H-s coming is foretold.

That is insightful and most interesting Ropey. I'll have to admit I've never known what a modern Jew understands and teaches of Sodom and Gomorrah. But that certain broadens the way in which I will think about it in the future. Thank you.

This isn't what I learned as a Jew Foxfyre. I posted earlier in this thread to you about what I had (as a practising Orthodox Jew) learned with regards to to this biblical story.

This one is what my father explained to me as we read our book. I started reading with him at age three.

I still like dads understanding best of all because as a child I had only defined the ten commandments at that time.