Socialized Healthcare. Italy May Not Treat The Elderly--COVID 19.

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

An idiotic thread by every measure. How fucking stupid and nauseating.. This measure is caused by the fact that Italy's hetalhcare infrastructure is overwhelmed. Any country with a shortage of facilities and supplies will have to make the same decision.

 

[forkup]

I believe that is true from a rational standpoint. As you believe yours is better seemingly without an actual base in rationality. It has absolutely nothing to do with believing I'm morally superior. I can be petty, arrogant, callous, etc. etc. You might be the nicest person alive, I don't know.

Facts are facts and I was under the impression that when discussing and defending an opinion it's best to use facts. I can't help that the facts don't support your opinion.

You don't know what the facts are. You read an article or some propaganda and believe that you have the "facts". You have absolutely no real experience about what you're promoting and expounding on.

First, I have given you reports from the NGOs that collect the data. Since you made it a point to object me sourcing Wikipedia. If you object to them. You are free to find other materials. You have not done so.

Secondly personal experience they call anecdotal evidence, as such it can't be used to prove anything. You are also wrong. My wife, mother-in-law and one of my brothers'-in-law have lived and are living your health care system to their detriment. If I'd use it though you would, rightfully I might add, recognize it as anecdotal and subsequentially dismiss it.

I have experienced two heart attacks and cancer twice. I would never go anywhere else. The USA is the best.

Bold statements, personal opinion, and anecdotal evidence. All in three sentences. As I said you do not have anything rational to support your opinion.

Oh, shove it. Sell your propaganda to some naive college kids.

So now we are in the last phase. Just reject reality because it doesn't fit what you believe. I have given you every opportunity to prove that what I say is simply "propaganda", I didn't deflect and supported what I said. You haven't. That tells me something and it should tell you something too. See you later BS.

 

[BS Filter]

You don't know what the facts are. You read an article or some propaganda and believe that you have the "facts". You have absolutely no real experience about what you're promoting and expounding on.

First, I have given you reports from the NGOs that collect the data. Since you made it a point to object me sourcing Wikipedia. If you object to them. You are free to find other materials. You have not done so.

Secondly personal experience they call anecdotal evidence, as such it can't be used to prove anything. You are also wrong. My wife, mother-in-law and one of my brothers'-in-law have lived and are living your health care system to their detriment. If I'd use it though you would, rightfully I might add, recognize it as anecdotal and subsequentially dismiss it.

I have experienced two heart attacks and cancer twice. I would never go anywhere else. The USA is the best.

Bold statements, personal opinion, and anecdotal evidence. All in three sentences. As I said you do not have anything rational to support your opinion.

Oh, shove it. Sell your propaganda to some naive college kids.

So now we are in the last phase. Just reject reality because it doesn't fit what you believe. I have given you every opportunity to prove that what I say is simply "propaganda", I didn't deflect and supported what I said. You haven't. That tells me something and it should tell you something too. See you later BS.

See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Life expectancy is how long the average person lives. Yes, that decreases because of the many young deaths we have. I like how your site states "comparable countries" without naming them. Sounds pretty selective to me to try and make a point.

Americans are workaholics. Ask your wife about that. Most people here don't go to the doctor unless they have no other choice, which in some cases, is too late. Again, drugs and obesity play a part in that as well. In any case, nobody wants to miss work for a cough, cold, or even fever, however this new virus will likely change that.

Now if our healthcare system was so inadequate, why is it VIP's from around the world all come here for serious health problems? Why don't they go to one of these other wonderful "comparable countries?" As a patent at the Cleveland Clinic, I can tell you when I go to their main campus downtown, I'm the one who feels like a foreigner.

I know people that work there as well. When VIP's do come in, it's not even reported on our news. The only way you know of it is if you work in that department, or know somebody that does. Some of them have rented out entire hospital floors for security reasons. The elevator doesn't even stop on that floor unless you have an elevator key. To rent out an entire hospital floor, you know what kind of money these people are worth.

My site if you scroll down a bit does a country by country comparison divided among all major causes of death. So I suggest you go back to it.

As to your cultural differences being a part of that than you have to able to establish not only that you guys work more than other countries but that how you guys deal with work has a direct effect on at which rate you survive diseases. I can, for instance, think of Japanese people having probably a higher work ethic.

Anecdotal evidence like "VIP's come here" so that means our healthcare system is superior doesn't hold water since anecdotes don't change statistics. A fact that you seem to recognize when it comes to other people but not to yourself.

Oh, so when you go to Italy, all you see are healthy well dressed people? Then that settles it. Their healthcare must be better than ours.

But even your anecdotal evidence doesn't make sense. On a population of 11 million 55000 medical procedures here were done on medical tourists. This included the Sultan of Oman.Als de patiënt een sultan is Who first went to Germany for treatment. So when you say they end up in the US and not other nations you are wrong. Medical tourism - Wikipedia The US isn't even in the top of destinations in this category. What are the Most Popular Countries for Medical Tourism?

It's all based on how much money you have. No, you can't come to our country and get treated here if you don't have the financial resources, so many don't for that reason. However if you do have the money, this is the place you come to for superior care.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...dians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Do we have Americans seeking medical care outside of our country? Yes we do. Two of the reasons are uninsured people, and those who's insurance companies are more than delighted their clients are seeking care in much less expensive countries. Some of our insurance companies not only provide coverage for procedures out of country, but encourage it at the same time.

As inbound medical tourism picks up, concerns about overseas care remain

Apparently the Sultan of Oman disagrees. You are trying to use medical tourism as a metric for the quality of your care. Something I find a very dubious metric to begin with. Quality at the highest end of medical care says very little about overall quality. A country can set up the best hospital in the world and still have atrocious healthcare for nearly all it's citizens.

Then when I point that the US is not even close to the most popular destination in that category you come back with a bold statement without even attempting to prove it, that explains why that metric doesn't play out in real life.

I also noted that you don't even attempt to address my first couple of paragraphs asking you to explain why the US scores so bad compared to other nations in mortality rates.

I've addressed that question several times. Sorry your memory is such a problem. Must be that government healthcare you have.

My second article did address why and who comes here for medical services. Yes, they are people with enough, or more than enough money to pay for such services which is not most of the world. Every wealthy person? Not at all. There are some who hate our country and wouldn't give us the time of day. There are some drugs that didn't pass our government FDA standard for safety, and only available in other countries.

More than that is the fact many of our medical personnel are foreigners as well. In the US, over 25% of our healthcare workers are foreigners from other countries. Our pay level and ability to live a very good life as a physician are why we do attract the best from around the globe.

You addressed it once. trying to claim American work ethic somehow leads to hearth attacks being more deadly, diabetes being more deadly etc. etc. You didn't try to support it and I pointed out that there are other countries that have an even stronger work ethic that still do considerably better.

You broad-brushed I didn't. I also explained why it's a bad metric and why the metric itself doesn't stand an actual factual examination.

As to your, " our doctors are foreigners who come here so they have to be the best in the world" How does that work in your head? A simply qualified doctor won't be as attracted to high pay so we only get the best? Do you guys reject qualified doctors? As it is the US doesn't have more doctors per capita than most countries, considerably less than a lot.

So again if you want to establish causality it would be helpful if you would support it.

That's what the best people in their field of work do. They gain employment where they will be best compensated. I didn't say anything about work ethic, what I stated is that Americans work more hours than many other countries. In fact, we rank 17th out of 106 countries. Because of all the hours we do work, many people only go to doctors when something is seriously wrong. Americans who do work try to use their time off for more recreational purposes as our vacation time is limited; average per worker in our country is 14 days of vacation. In our country, few businesses offer sick time anymore.

Mortality rates: I didn't ever say our mortality rates were because of diabetes and heart problems. I gave a much more expanded list such as recreational narcotics usage, murder rates, particularly where drug sales and gangs are involved, mid-life births as compared to early life birth that gives a baby a much better chance at survival, obesity and proper nutrition, baby deaths because of women who have addiction problems, and yes, auto deaths which are about 36,500 in 2018.

Many people on this list are younger folks. So that decreases our mortality rate as a whole, if you are using the term mortality rate as in life expectancy.

 

[forkup]

My site if you scroll down a bit does a country by country comparison divided among all major causes of death. So I suggest you go back to it.

As to your cultural differences being a part of that than you have to able to establish not only that you guys work more than other countries but that how you guys deal with work has a direct effect on at which rate you survive diseases. I can, for instance, think of Japanese people having probably a higher work ethic.

Anecdotal evidence like "VIP's come here" so that means our healthcare system is superior doesn't hold water since anecdotes don't change statistics. A fact that you seem to recognize when it comes to other people but not to yourself.
But even your anecdotal evidence doesn't make sense. On a population of 11 million 55000 medical procedures here were done on medical tourists. This included the Sultan of Oman.Als de patiënt een sultan is Who first went to Germany for treatment. So when you say they end up in the US and not other nations you are wrong. Medical tourism - Wikipedia The US isn't even in the top of destinations in this category. What are the Most Popular Countries for Medical Tourism?

It's all based on how much money you have. No, you can't come to our country and get treated here if you don't have the financial resources, so many don't for that reason. However if you do have the money, this is the place you come to for superior care.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...dians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Do we have Americans seeking medical care outside of our country? Yes we do. Two of the reasons are uninsured people, and those who's insurance companies are more than delighted their clients are seeking care in much less expensive countries. Some of our insurance companies not only provide coverage for procedures out of country, but encourage it at the same time.

As inbound medical tourism picks up, concerns about overseas care remain

Apparently the Sultan of Oman disagrees. You are trying to use medical tourism as a metric for the quality of your care. Something I find a very dubious metric to begin with. Quality at the highest end of medical care says very little about overall quality. A country can set up the best hospital in the world and still have atrocious healthcare for nearly all it's citizens.

Then when I point that the US is not even close to the most popular destination in that category you come back with a bold statement without even attempting to prove it, that explains why that metric doesn't play out in real life.

I also noted that you don't even attempt to address my first couple of paragraphs asking you to explain why the US scores so bad compared to other nations in mortality rates.

I've addressed that question several times. Sorry your memory is such a problem. Must be that government healthcare you have.

My second article did address why and who comes here for medical services. Yes, they are people with enough, or more than enough money to pay for such services which is not most of the world. Every wealthy person? Not at all. There are some who hate our country and wouldn't give us the time of day. There are some drugs that didn't pass our government FDA standard for safety, and only available in other countries.

More than that is the fact many of our medical personnel are foreigners as well. In the US, over 25% of our healthcare workers are foreigners from other countries. Our pay level and ability to live a very good life as a physician are why we do attract the best from around the globe.

You addressed it once. trying to claim American work ethic somehow leads to hearth attacks being more deadly, diabetes being more deadly etc. etc. You didn't try to support it and I pointed out that there are other countries that have an even stronger work ethic that still do considerably better.

You broad-brushed I didn't. I also explained why it's a bad metric and why the metric itself doesn't stand an actual factual examination.

As to your, " our doctors are foreigners who come here so they have to be the best in the world" How does that work in your head? A simply qualified doctor won't be as attracted to high pay so we only get the best? Do you guys reject qualified doctors? As it is the US doesn't have more doctors per capita than most countries, considerably less than a lot.

So again if you want to establish causality it would be helpful if you would support it.

That's what the best people in their field of work do. They gain employment where they will be best compensated. I didn't say anything about work ethic, what I stated is that Americans work more hours than many other countries. In fact, we rank 17th out of 106 countries. Because of all the hours we do work, many people only go to doctors when something is seriously wrong. Americans who do work try to use their time off for more recreational purposes as our vacation time is limited; average per worker in our country is 14 days of vacation. In our country, few businesses offer sick time anymore.

Mortality rates: I didn't ever say our mortality rates were because of diabetes and heart problems. I gave a much more expanded list such as recreational narcotics usage, murder rates, particularly where drug sales and gangs are involved, mid-life births as compared to early life birth that gives a baby a much better chance at survival, obesity and proper nutrition, baby deaths because of women who have addiction problems, and yes, auto deaths which are about 36,500 in 2018.

Many people on this list are younger folks. So that decreases our mortality rate as a whole, if you are using the term mortality rate as in life expectancy.

That's what everybody in any field does, not just the best. If you claim that the US attracts a lot of foreigners because of higher wages doesn't it stand to reason that it would attract everybody in the field, not just the best? As far as I know, to be allowed to practice medicine in the US or any country for that matter one has to establish competence NOT extraordinary skill.

What you keep on going back to is trying to explain why you guys have a lower life expectancy. I gave you a link where they gave statistics on what your survival rate was if you actually received treatment on something which is a pretty decent metric to judge overall quality of health care IMO. And I've been asking as to why the US has an overall lower survival rate? That's how I was using mortality rate. Something I can't help to think you would understand if you would have actually looked properly at the link. How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

 

[Kilroy2]

admitted socialism vs quasi socialism

socialized is prepared to render assistance to all the population where as quasi socialism will render the assistance to those in need as it becomes a moral issue then the lines become blurred

but in the end what is the difference, people expect the government to solve global scale problems. Yes the wealth factor in an economy is important

the main difference is who is better prepared and in the end the body count will be the telling sign

then it will be a question of leadership and the US with it economy will throw vast amounts of money at this which may starve off disaster until the next time

and there is always a next time, so does it behoove countries to be prepared for it

The boy scouts have a motto - Be prepared

but with fake news how prepared can you be when the truth is skewed to what one wants to believe

People look to the government to solve global scale problems

price gouging will always be a problem when panic sets in but hey if you have the money to pay for it then it is an endless cycle except for those who do not have the money and will have to accept that fact and depend on those who want to help as it is a moral obligation

Does the government have a moral obligation

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It's all based on how much money you have. No, you can't come to our country and get treated here if you don't have the financial resources, so many don't for that reason. However if you do have the money, this is the place you come to for superior care.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...dians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

Do we have Americans seeking medical care outside of our country? Yes we do. Two of the reasons are uninsured people, and those who's insurance companies are more than delighted their clients are seeking care in much less expensive countries. Some of our insurance companies not only provide coverage for procedures out of country, but encourage it at the same time.

As inbound medical tourism picks up, concerns about overseas care remain

Apparently the Sultan of Oman disagrees. You are trying to use medical tourism as a metric for the quality of your care. Something I find a very dubious metric to begin with. Quality at the highest end of medical care says very little about overall quality. A country can set up the best hospital in the world and still have atrocious healthcare for nearly all it's citizens.

Then when I point that the US is not even close to the most popular destination in that category you come back with a bold statement without even attempting to prove it, that explains why that metric doesn't play out in real life.

I also noted that you don't even attempt to address my first couple of paragraphs asking you to explain why the US scores so bad compared to other nations in mortality rates.

I've addressed that question several times. Sorry your memory is such a problem. Must be that government healthcare you have.

My second article did address why and who comes here for medical services. Yes, they are people with enough, or more than enough money to pay for such services which is not most of the world. Every wealthy person? Not at all. There are some who hate our country and wouldn't give us the time of day. There are some drugs that didn't pass our government FDA standard for safety, and only available in other countries.

More than that is the fact many of our medical personnel are foreigners as well. In the US, over 25% of our healthcare workers are foreigners from other countries. Our pay level and ability to live a very good life as a physician are why we do attract the best from around the globe.

You addressed it once. trying to claim American work ethic somehow leads to hearth attacks being more deadly, diabetes being more deadly etc. etc. You didn't try to support it and I pointed out that there are other countries that have an even stronger work ethic that still do considerably better.

You broad-brushed I didn't. I also explained why it's a bad metric and why the metric itself doesn't stand an actual factual examination.

As to your, " our doctors are foreigners who come here so they have to be the best in the world" How does that work in your head? A simply qualified doctor won't be as attracted to high pay so we only get the best? Do you guys reject qualified doctors? As it is the US doesn't have more doctors per capita than most countries, considerably less than a lot.

So again if you want to establish causality it would be helpful if you would support it.

That's what the best people in their field of work do. They gain employment where they will be best compensated. I didn't say anything about work ethic, what I stated is that Americans work more hours than many other countries. In fact, we rank 17th out of 106 countries. Because of all the hours we do work, many people only go to doctors when something is seriously wrong. Americans who do work try to use their time off for more recreational purposes as our vacation time is limited; average per worker in our country is 14 days of vacation. In our country, few businesses offer sick time anymore.

Mortality rates: I didn't ever say our mortality rates were because of diabetes and heart problems. I gave a much more expanded list such as recreational narcotics usage, murder rates, particularly where drug sales and gangs are involved, mid-life births as compared to early life birth that gives a baby a much better chance at survival, obesity and proper nutrition, baby deaths because of women who have addiction problems, and yes, auto deaths which are about 36,500 in 2018.

Many people on this list are younger folks. So that decreases our mortality rate as a whole, if you are using the term mortality rate as in life expectancy.

That's what everybody in any field does, not just the best. If you claim that the US attracts a lot of foreigners because of higher wages doesn't it stand to reason that it would attract everybody in the field, not just the best? As far as I know, to be allowed to practice medicine in the US or any country for that matter one has to establish competence NOT extraordinary skill.

What you keep on going back to is trying to explain why you guys have a lower life expectancy. I gave you a link where they gave statistics on what your survival rate was if you actually received treatment on something which is a pretty decent metric to judge overall quality of health care IMO. And I've been asking as to why the US has an overall lower survival rate? That's how I was using mortality rate. Something I can't help to think you would understand if you would have actually looked properly at the link. How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

What your link doesn't state is when people were diagnosed and began treatment (if they got treatment at all) with X. And in several categories, we do better than other countries. Plus if you click the "mortality rate" link at the bottom of that page, it takes you to another one that shows our mortality rate related to healthcare has declined since 2003. It kind of leveled off after Obama Care (more government healthcare) kicked in.

How can that be? Government healthcare is the best, isn't it? So how did our rate stop declining when more people got healthcare insurance through government?

 

[forkup]

Apparently the Sultan of Oman disagrees. You are trying to use medical tourism as a metric for the quality of your care. Something I find a very dubious metric to begin with. Quality at the highest end of medical care says very little about overall quality. A country can set up the best hospital in the world and still have atrocious healthcare for nearly all it's citizens.

Then when I point that the US is not even close to the most popular destination in that category you come back with a bold statement without even attempting to prove it, that explains why that metric doesn't play out in real life.

I also noted that you don't even attempt to address my first couple of paragraphs asking you to explain why the US scores so bad compared to other nations in mortality rates.

I've addressed that question several times. Sorry your memory is such a problem. Must be that government healthcare you have.

My second article did address why and who comes here for medical services. Yes, they are people with enough, or more than enough money to pay for such services which is not most of the world. Every wealthy person? Not at all. There are some who hate our country and wouldn't give us the time of day. There are some drugs that didn't pass our government FDA standard for safety, and only available in other countries.

More than that is the fact many of our medical personnel are foreigners as well. In the US, over 25% of our healthcare workers are foreigners from other countries. Our pay level and ability to live a very good life as a physician are why we do attract the best from around the globe.

You addressed it once. trying to claim American work ethic somehow leads to hearth attacks being more deadly, diabetes being more deadly etc. etc. You didn't try to support it and I pointed out that there are other countries that have an even stronger work ethic that still do considerably better.

You broad-brushed I didn't. I also explained why it's a bad metric and why the metric itself doesn't stand an actual factual examination.

As to your, " our doctors are foreigners who come here so they have to be the best in the world" How does that work in your head? A simply qualified doctor won't be as attracted to high pay so we only get the best? Do you guys reject qualified doctors? As it is the US doesn't have more doctors per capita than most countries, considerably less than a lot.

So again if you want to establish causality it would be helpful if you would support it.

That's what the best people in their field of work do. They gain employment where they will be best compensated. I didn't say anything about work ethic, what I stated is that Americans work more hours than many other countries. In fact, we rank 17th out of 106 countries. Because of all the hours we do work, many people only go to doctors when something is seriously wrong. Americans who do work try to use their time off for more recreational purposes as our vacation time is limited; average per worker in our country is 14 days of vacation. In our country, few businesses offer sick time anymore.

Mortality rates: I didn't ever say our mortality rates were because of diabetes and heart problems. I gave a much more expanded list such as recreational narcotics usage, murder rates, particularly where drug sales and gangs are involved, mid-life births as compared to early life birth that gives a baby a much better chance at survival, obesity and proper nutrition, baby deaths because of women who have addiction problems, and yes, auto deaths which are about 36,500 in 2018.

Many people on this list are younger folks. So that decreases our mortality rate as a whole, if you are using the term mortality rate as in life expectancy.

That's what everybody in any field does, not just the best. If you claim that the US attracts a lot of foreigners because of higher wages doesn't it stand to reason that it would attract everybody in the field, not just the best? As far as I know, to be allowed to practice medicine in the US or any country for that matter one has to establish competence NOT extraordinary skill.

What you keep on going back to is trying to explain why you guys have a lower life expectancy. I gave you a link where they gave statistics on what your survival rate was if you actually received treatment on something which is a pretty decent metric to judge overall quality of health care IMO. And I've been asking as to why the US has an overall lower survival rate? That's how I was using mortality rate. Something I can't help to think you would understand if you would have actually looked properly at the link. How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

What your link doesn't state is when people were diagnosed and began treatment (if they got treatment at all) with X. And in several categories, we do better than other countries. Plus if you click the "mortality rate" link at the bottom of that page, it takes you to another one that shows our mortality rate related to healthcare has declined since 2003. It kind of leveled off after Obama Care (more government healthcare) kicked in.

How can that be? Government healthcare is the best, isn't it? So how did our rate stop declining when more people got healthcare insurance through government?

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I've addressed that question several times. Sorry your memory is such a problem. Must be that government healthcare you have.

My second article did address why and who comes here for medical services. Yes, they are people with enough, or more than enough money to pay for such services which is not most of the world. Every wealthy person? Not at all. There are some who hate our country and wouldn't give us the time of day. There are some drugs that didn't pass our government FDA standard for safety, and only available in other countries.

More than that is the fact many of our medical personnel are foreigners as well. In the US, over 25% of our healthcare workers are foreigners from other countries. Our pay level and ability to live a very good life as a physician are why we do attract the best from around the globe.

You addressed it once. trying to claim American work ethic somehow leads to hearth attacks being more deadly, diabetes being more deadly etc. etc. You didn't try to support it and I pointed out that there are other countries that have an even stronger work ethic that still do considerably better.

You broad-brushed I didn't. I also explained why it's a bad metric and why the metric itself doesn't stand an actual factual examination.

As to your, " our doctors are foreigners who come here so they have to be the best in the world" How does that work in your head? A simply qualified doctor won't be as attracted to high pay so we only get the best? Do you guys reject qualified doctors? As it is the US doesn't have more doctors per capita than most countries, considerably less than a lot.

So again if you want to establish causality it would be helpful if you would support it.

That's what the best people in their field of work do. They gain employment where they will be best compensated. I didn't say anything about work ethic, what I stated is that Americans work more hours than many other countries. In fact, we rank 17th out of 106 countries. Because of all the hours we do work, many people only go to doctors when something is seriously wrong. Americans who do work try to use their time off for more recreational purposes as our vacation time is limited; average per worker in our country is 14 days of vacation. In our country, few businesses offer sick time anymore.

Mortality rates: I didn't ever say our mortality rates were because of diabetes and heart problems. I gave a much more expanded list such as recreational narcotics usage, murder rates, particularly where drug sales and gangs are involved, mid-life births as compared to early life birth that gives a baby a much better chance at survival, obesity and proper nutrition, baby deaths because of women who have addiction problems, and yes, auto deaths which are about 36,500 in 2018.

Many people on this list are younger folks. So that decreases our mortality rate as a whole, if you are using the term mortality rate as in life expectancy.

That's what everybody in any field does, not just the best. If you claim that the US attracts a lot of foreigners because of higher wages doesn't it stand to reason that it would attract everybody in the field, not just the best? As far as I know, to be allowed to practice medicine in the US or any country for that matter one has to establish competence NOT extraordinary skill.

What you keep on going back to is trying to explain why you guys have a lower life expectancy. I gave you a link where they gave statistics on what your survival rate was if you actually received treatment on something which is a pretty decent metric to judge overall quality of health care IMO. And I've been asking as to why the US has an overall lower survival rate? That's how I was using mortality rate. Something I can't help to think you would understand if you would have actually looked properly at the link. How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

What your link doesn't state is when people were diagnosed and began treatment (if they got treatment at all) with X. And in several categories, we do better than other countries. Plus if you click the "mortality rate" link at the bottom of that page, it takes you to another one that shows our mortality rate related to healthcare has declined since 2003. It kind of leveled off after Obama Care (more government healthcare) kicked in.

How can that be? Government healthcare is the best, isn't it? So how did our rate stop declining when more people got healthcare insurance through government?

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

 

[forkup]

You addressed it once. trying to claim American work ethic somehow leads to hearth attacks being more deadly, diabetes being more deadly etc. etc. You didn't try to support it and I pointed out that there are other countries that have an even stronger work ethic that still do considerably better.

You broad-brushed I didn't. I also explained why it's a bad metric and why the metric itself doesn't stand an actual factual examination.

As to your, " our doctors are foreigners who come here so they have to be the best in the world" How does that work in your head? A simply qualified doctor won't be as attracted to high pay so we only get the best? Do you guys reject qualified doctors? As it is the US doesn't have more doctors per capita than most countries, considerably less than a lot.

So again if you want to establish causality it would be helpful if you would support it.

That's what the best people in their field of work do. They gain employment where they will be best compensated. I didn't say anything about work ethic, what I stated is that Americans work more hours than many other countries. In fact, we rank 17th out of 106 countries. Because of all the hours we do work, many people only go to doctors when something is seriously wrong. Americans who do work try to use their time off for more recreational purposes as our vacation time is limited; average per worker in our country is 14 days of vacation. In our country, few businesses offer sick time anymore.

Mortality rates: I didn't ever say our mortality rates were because of diabetes and heart problems. I gave a much more expanded list such as recreational narcotics usage, murder rates, particularly where drug sales and gangs are involved, mid-life births as compared to early life birth that gives a baby a much better chance at survival, obesity and proper nutrition, baby deaths because of women who have addiction problems, and yes, auto deaths which are about 36,500 in 2018.

Many people on this list are younger folks. So that decreases our mortality rate as a whole, if you are using the term mortality rate as in life expectancy.

That's what everybody in any field does, not just the best. If you claim that the US attracts a lot of foreigners because of higher wages doesn't it stand to reason that it would attract everybody in the field, not just the best? As far as I know, to be allowed to practice medicine in the US or any country for that matter one has to establish competence NOT extraordinary skill.

What you keep on going back to is trying to explain why you guys have a lower life expectancy. I gave you a link where they gave statistics on what your survival rate was if you actually received treatment on something which is a pretty decent metric to judge overall quality of health care IMO. And I've been asking as to why the US has an overall lower survival rate? That's how I was using mortality rate. Something I can't help to think you would understand if you would have actually looked properly at the link. How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

What your link doesn't state is when people were diagnosed and began treatment (if they got treatment at all) with X. And in several categories, we do better than other countries. Plus if you click the "mortality rate" link at the bottom of that page, it takes you to another one that shows our mortality rate related to healthcare has declined since 2003. It kind of leveled off after Obama Care (more government healthcare) kicked in.

How can that be? Government healthcare is the best, isn't it? So how did our rate stop declining when more people got healthcare insurance through government?

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

That's what the best people in their field of work do. They gain employment where they will be best compensated. I didn't say anything about work ethic, what I stated is that Americans work more hours than many other countries. In fact, we rank 17th out of 106 countries. Because of all the hours we do work, many people only go to doctors when something is seriously wrong. Americans who do work try to use their time off for more recreational purposes as our vacation time is limited; average per worker in our country is 14 days of vacation. In our country, few businesses offer sick time anymore.

Mortality rates: I didn't ever say our mortality rates were because of diabetes and heart problems. I gave a much more expanded list such as recreational narcotics usage, murder rates, particularly where drug sales and gangs are involved, mid-life births as compared to early life birth that gives a baby a much better chance at survival, obesity and proper nutrition, baby deaths because of women who have addiction problems, and yes, auto deaths which are about 36,500 in 2018.

Many people on this list are younger folks. So that decreases our mortality rate as a whole, if you are using the term mortality rate as in life expectancy.

That's what everybody in any field does, not just the best. If you claim that the US attracts a lot of foreigners because of higher wages doesn't it stand to reason that it would attract everybody in the field, not just the best? As far as I know, to be allowed to practice medicine in the US or any country for that matter one has to establish competence NOT extraordinary skill.

What you keep on going back to is trying to explain why you guys have a lower life expectancy. I gave you a link where they gave statistics on what your survival rate was if you actually received treatment on something which is a pretty decent metric to judge overall quality of health care IMO. And I've been asking as to why the US has an overall lower survival rate? That's how I was using mortality rate. Something I can't help to think you would understand if you would have actually looked properly at the link. How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

What your link doesn't state is when people were diagnosed and began treatment (if they got treatment at all) with X. And in several categories, we do better than other countries. Plus if you click the "mortality rate" link at the bottom of that page, it takes you to another one that shows our mortality rate related to healthcare has declined since 2003. It kind of leveled off after Obama Care (more government healthcare) kicked in.

How can that be? Government healthcare is the best, isn't it? So how did our rate stop declining when more people got healthcare insurance through government?

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

 

[forkup]

That's what everybody in any field does, not just the best. If you claim that the US attracts a lot of foreigners because of higher wages doesn't it stand to reason that it would attract everybody in the field, not just the best? As far as I know, to be allowed to practice medicine in the US or any country for that matter one has to establish competence NOT extraordinary skill.

What you keep on going back to is trying to explain why you guys have a lower life expectancy. I gave you a link where they gave statistics on what your survival rate was if you actually received treatment on something which is a pretty decent metric to judge overall quality of health care IMO. And I've been asking as to why the US has an overall lower survival rate? That's how I was using mortality rate. Something I can't help to think you would understand if you would have actually looked properly at the link. How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

What your link doesn't state is when people were diagnosed and began treatment (if they got treatment at all) with X. And in several categories, we do better than other countries. Plus if you click the "mortality rate" link at the bottom of that page, it takes you to another one that shows our mortality rate related to healthcare has declined since 2003. It kind of leveled off after Obama Care (more government healthcare) kicked in.

How can that be? Government healthcare is the best, isn't it? So how did our rate stop declining when more people got healthcare insurance through government?

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

 

[daveman]

Reminder than the virus started, got out of control, and spread to the rest of the world in and from China, a country with government-run healthcare.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What your link doesn't state is when people were diagnosed and began treatment (if they got treatment at all) with X. And in several categories, we do better than other countries. Plus if you click the "mortality rate" link at the bottom of that page, it takes you to another one that shows our mortality rate related to healthcare has declined since 2003. It kind of leveled off after Obama Care (more government healthcare) kicked in.

How can that be? Government healthcare is the best, isn't it? So how did our rate stop declining when more people got healthcare insurance through government?

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

 

[forkup]

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

You just literally did.

Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

Not for nothing, how bad a disconnect is there when you say you aren't doing something that you than proceed in doing again in the next sentence?

 

[forkup]

In most categories, you have a higher mortality rate. In exactly 1, not several 1 that's not the case. And if you are implying that the reason you guys score worse is that you are diagnosed later in the US that says something about overall quality too doesn't it?

As to your question. I don't know, neither do you. You try to link it to more government healthcare. What if it's simply that there have been fewer medical advances in that time period? Or some other reason. Without establishing decent causality, something that I've asked you repeatedly to do we do not know.

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger so it holds more than 1 person? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And that is the point. I go through the same thing when people bring up statistics on blacks getting arrested, prison sentence differences between them and whites, all while they only give me the final results. The implication is that blacks are still treated unfairly in our country, without presenting all the variables that are more likely to be the cause of it.

I had a wonderful neighbor several years ago. We got along great. She never liked to go anywhere. She passed away from lung cancer. It's not that our healthcare system left a lot to be desired, it's because she didn't seek attention until she couldn't take it anymore. It was way too late for her.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. However I'm 60 years old and have lived here all of my life. I know how Americans dread and avoid seeking medical care unless absolutely necessary. I know because I've done it myself.

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

 

[daveman]

Leftists want everyone subject to VA-quality medical care with DMV-style efficiency.

 

[forkup]

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

Do you think the US is the only place that rents out medical equipment? I think you have absolutely not a clue how many the US shortly will likely need.

As to your statement that the US wouldn't do triage that way, I can only state that you are mistaken. If 2 people need a ventilator and only 1 is available and the choices are a 25 year old female and an 80 year old male that ventilator goes to the younger one.Crisis Standards of Care In this point 1,3,4 are applicable and they all say the same thing. You prioritize those that have the least amount of extra risk factors, in which age is a factor. You prioritize those that are at least risk for complications, especially when there's a recourse shortage. You prioritize those who are most likely to recover, again favors younger people.

 

[forkup]

So even if and I don't really accept your explanation for the higher mortality rates. It still reflects on your healthcare system. You cite dread as the reason for not seeking medical attention. I know and if your honest you do too, that that dread quite often is tied to the cost of that treatment. Wich in itself affects the overall quality of your system.

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

Oh, and as to your problems, you are right every system of medical care has problems that doesn't mean you can't determine what system has the least right? If one system has 5 problems and another system has 20 one can state that the first is better don't you think? In this conversation, we have done a kind of research IMO. You have brought up arguments for your for-profit system. I have made counter-arguments to what you said and vice versa. So far as I can determine you haven't been able to come up with a single argument that I consider convincing or even supported by anything. On the other hand my arguments for my healthcare system you have hardly countered.

This can be a function of me being a really good debater. I think though that it's more likely that the facts simply support my opinion better than yours.