Socialized Healthcare. Italy May Not Treat The Elderly--COVID 19.

[Issa]

The socialists here will deny it, but we all know that this is exactly what happens with socialist medicine.

I'm waiting for them to swoop down like a vulture. Correct, and then they will try to make some comparisons of their system to ours to support their stance that socialized healthcare is the greatest.

Italy has one of the healthiest populations on earth and top 2 life expectancy due to their lifestyle and health care.....every time I go there I see healthy looking people dressed nicely I see a trump rally and all I see is hundreds of obese dressed in baggy crappy clothes looking sick as ****.

Oh, so when you go to Italy, all you see are healthy well dressed people? Then that settles it. Their healthcare must be better than ours.

Yes it is . Huge diffe42nce between the US and italy. We have a rampant obesity and lower life expectancy compared to them. Thry have access to free health care. We have millions that are not insured.
What's your argument Mr never left his trailer park ?

 

[Issa]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

Sweet heart when it comes to health care, compassion and solidarity italy can teach you many lessons. I have family and friends that live in italy and the stories are coming out of there should be taught in American schools to teach real human values.

Having said that millions of america are not insured, millions go bankrupt after s procedure.

I just did a procedure that costs nothing to italians , my inssurance paid 110k for it.

Stop your bullshit.

I'd suggest you do the same.

Most of the bankruptcies associated with medical is not because of medical bills. When people become ill, they often take a lot of time off of work. You can't collect unemployment if you are out of work for illness, and very few people buy long term disability insurance.

So the bills you've always paid in the past keep coming in, but you have no income to pay them. So people file bankruptcy with hopes of working in the future to straighten out their credit records.

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

Sweet heart when it comes to health care, compassion and solidarity italy can teach you many lessons. I have family and friends that live in italy and the stories are coming out of there should be taught in American schools to teach real human values.

Having said that millions of america are not insured, millions go bankrupt after s procedure.

I just did a procedure that costs nothing to italians , my inssurance paid 110k for it.

Stop your bullshit.

I'd suggest you do the same.

Most of the bankruptcies associated with medical is not because of medical bills. When people become ill, they often take a lot of time off of work. You can't collect unemployment if you are out of work for illness, and very few people buy long term disability insurance.

So the bills you've always paid in the past keep coming in, but you have no income to pay them. So people file bankruptcy with hopes of working in the future to straighten out their credit records.

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

Oh, and as to your problems, you are right every system of medical care has problems that doesn't mean you can't determine what system has the least right? If one system has 5 problems and another system has 20 one can state that the first is better don't you think? In this conversation, we have done a kind of research IMO. You have brought up arguments for your for-profit system. I have made counter-arguments to what you said and vice versa. So far as I can determine you haven't been able to come up with a single argument that I consider convincing or even supported by anything. On the other hand my arguments for my healthcare system you have hardly countered.

This can be a function of me being a really good debater. I think though that it's more likely that the facts simply support my opinion better than yours.

It's up to each country to solve their own problems. But going from one troubled system to another is not a solution either. We love our medical care system just like you love yours. You can find flaws in our system just as we can find flaws in yours. But when people talk about more government, I can only heed the wise words of President Ronald Reagan when he said, government is not the solution to our problems--government is the problem.

 

[Fang]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

Sarah Palin was right when she said Obamacare would lead to death panels.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I'm sure that's partially true for some folks, but most don't want to miss work because of a doctors appointment. Like I said, we don't get time off of work like people in Europe. Plus we are a money hungry country. Even if your reason for not showing up the next day is legitimate, some employers still frown on it.

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

Do you think the US is the only place that rents out medical equipment? I think you have absolutely not a clue how many the US shortly will likely need.

As to your statement that the US wouldn't do triage that way, I can only state that you are mistaken. If 2 people need a ventilator and only 1 is available and the choices are a 25 year old female and an 80 year old male that ventilator goes to the younger one.Crisis Standards of Care In this point 1,3,4 are applicable and they all say the same thing. You prioritize those that have the least amount of extra risk factors, in which age is a factor. You prioritize those that are at least risk for complications, especially when there's a recourse shortage. You prioritize those who are most likely to recover, again favors younger people.

That is where the theory is flawed. Younger healthier people are likely to recover than the elderly and sickly. Those are the people that need the most assistance. If it would ever come down to that (and I never seen that happen in my life) then it would have to go to first come--first serve. We are not a nation that decides who lives and who dies when in need of help. That's what God does.

 

[Mac-7]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

An idiotic thread by every measure. How ******* stupid and nauseating.. This measure is caused by the fact that Italy's hetalhcare infrastructure is overwhelmed. Any country with a shortage of facilities and supplies will have to make the same decision.

You mean italy’s socialized medicine medicare for all healthcare system is overwhelmed

 

[daveman]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

Sarah Palin was right when she said Obamacare would lead to death panels.

Every government-funded and -run healthcare system does. It's inevitable. Resources are finite.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

inb4 THATS NOT REAL SOCIALIZED MEDICINE PRESIDENT BERNIE WILL TAKE CARE OF EVERYBODY

President Bernster will ration Coronavirus so no need to worry...

Also Whites, Blacks and Asians will wait while Bernster voters ( Latinos ) get preferred treatment...

 

[Issa]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

Sweet heart when it comes to health care, compassion and solidarity italy can teach you many lessons. I have family and friends that live in italy and the stories are coming out of there should be taught in American schools to teach real human values.

Having said that millions of america are not insured, millions go bankrupt after s procedure.

I just did a procedure that costs nothing to italians , my inssurance paid 110k for it.

Stop your bullshit.

I'd suggest you do the same.

Most of the bankruptcies associated with medical is not because of medical bills. When people become ill, they often take a lot of time off of work. You can't collect unemployment if you are out of work for illness, and very few people buy long term disability insurance.

So the bills you've always paid in the past keep coming in, but you have no income to pay them. So people file bankruptcy with hopes of working in the future to straighten out their credit records.

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

I have seen hownothrr countries take of their citizens and how Americans are suffering.
I love this country and I worked hard to say I'm an example of a ssuccessetul immigrant...Americans deserve better, but instead they have been taken advantage of by voting against their interest and beleive that their money should be used for useless stuff to them.
It makes me pissed off that you dont know better, but yet you are so stubborn and willing to die for false promises and lies.
I'm fully insured, I just had a rare procedure that costed 110k , in other parts of the world it costs the citizens nothing, I know many that couldn't get it done because they cant afford it in the greatest country on earth.

You dont like change I get it, you haven't seen better, I get it. ....but at least dont repeat lies and assumptions. We that came from other places and have families know better. Of both worlds and what can be beneficial for here, that's what made america what's great, everything is imported, people, ideas, brains, workforce...dont fool yourself that we are self sufficient and can live in a bubble.

America is good, you can be whatever you want but it is also a savage capitalism. That doesnt cater enough to the unfortunate and the poor.

Wake up.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

Sweet heart when it comes to health care, compassion and solidarity italy can teach you many lessons. I have family and friends that live in italy and the stories are coming out of there should be taught in American schools to teach real human values.

Having said that millions of america are not insured, millions go bankrupt after s procedure.

I just did a procedure that costs nothing to italians , my inssurance paid 110k for it.

Stop your bullshit.

I'd suggest you do the same.

Most of the bankruptcies associated with medical is not because of medical bills. When people become ill, they often take a lot of time off of work. You can't collect unemployment if you are out of work for illness, and very few people buy long term disability insurance.

So the bills you've always paid in the past keep coming in, but you have no income to pay them. So people file bankruptcy with hopes of working in the future to straighten out their credit records.

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

I have seen hownothrr countries take of their citizens and how Americans are suffering.
I love this country and I worked hard to say I'm an example of a ssuccessetul immigrant...Americans deserve better, but instead they have been taken advantage of by voting against their interest and beleive that their money should be used for useless stuff to them.
It makes me pissed off that you dont know better, but yet you are so stubborn and willing to die for false promises and lies.
I'm fully insured, I just had a rare procedure that costed 110k , in other parts of the world it costs the citizens nothing, I know many that couldn't get it done because they cant afford it in the greatest country on earth.

You dont like change I get it, you haven't seen better, I get it. ....but at least dont repeat lies and assumptions. We that came from other places and have families know better. Of both worlds and what can be beneficial for here, that's what made america what's great, everything is imported, people, ideas, brains, workforce...dont fool yourself that we are self sufficient and can live in a bubble.

America is good, you can be whatever you want but it is also a savage capitalism. That doesnt cater enough to the unfortunate and the poor.

Wake up.

What makes this country great is that we live by the US Constitution. In that Constitution, is listed what our founders wanted the federal government to be responsible for. If they wanted it to be responsible for everything at our whim, they would have never listed what they are to be in charge of.

You see, if we took all the suggestions of the left, and made this place what it wasn't supposed to be, we would be no different than any other country. But our founders wanted it to be different, and so do real Americans. We want to be different than those other countries which is why you came here in the first place.

What you don't understand about freedom is that you are not only free to succeed, but free to fail as well. The federal government is not supposed to be the decider between the two. Our founders wanted the federal government to stay our of our lives, not be a major part in it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger, on that article of the Constitution that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

 

[forkup]

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

Oh, and as to your problems, you are right every system of medical care has problems that doesn't mean you can't determine what system has the least right? If one system has 5 problems and another system has 20 one can state that the first is better don't you think? In this conversation, we have done a kind of research IMO. You have brought up arguments for your for-profit system. I have made counter-arguments to what you said and vice versa. So far as I can determine you haven't been able to come up with a single argument that I consider convincing or even supported by anything. On the other hand my arguments for my healthcare system you have hardly countered.

This can be a function of me being a really good debater. I think though that it's more likely that the facts simply support my opinion better than yours.

It's up to each country to solve their own problems. But going from one troubled system to another is not a solution either. We love our medical care system just like you love yours. You can find flaws in our system just as we can find flaws in yours. But when people talk about more government, I can only heed the wise words of President Ronald Reagan when he said, government is not the solution to our problems--government is the problem.

You have been trying to point to flaws in mine throughout this thread. You haven't gotten beyond bold statements and flawed causality. That's a simple fact.

As to your Reagan quote. Isn't that the same guy who proposed the theory of "trickle-down economics?" Look at your income disparity and explain how that worked out? If the government is the cause of problems how come my government-run system is capable of delivering higher average quality, lower price and higher inclusiveness compared to your for-profit system? It seems that those criteria are the main ones a person uses to asses healthcare.

I understand that you are just stating your belief and that like all beliefs yours are mostly immune to facts but the facts are pretty undeniable to those who possess intellectual honesty.

 

[forkup]

Do you know why we get paid time off work? Because we are a social Democracy. The same thing you are trying to disparage by trying to tie triage to a failure of socialized medicine in general. In any effect as so often what you are doing is making excuses for the failures of unbridled Capitalism in general and your healthcare system in particular.

As I said my wife is American and I do understand it. It's a conditioning thing. The first time I explained we had Socialized medicine here she looked at me and almost yelled Commie at me. This lasted until she broke her foot on my landing and experienced a hospital were she got x-rayed, had emergency surgery the same day, was out by evening, and had a follow up scheduled 2 weeks later, without anybody asking her for her credit card information. This too is anecdotal but it does illustrate something I think.

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

Do you think the US is the only place that rents out medical equipment? I think you have absolutely not a clue how many the US shortly will likely need.

As to your statement that the US wouldn't do triage that way, I can only state that you are mistaken. If 2 people need a ventilator and only 1 is available and the choices are a 25 year old female and an 80 year old male that ventilator goes to the younger one.Crisis Standards of Care In this point 1,3,4 are applicable and they all say the same thing. You prioritize those that have the least amount of extra risk factors, in which age is a factor. You prioritize those that are at least risk for complications, especially when there's a recourse shortage. You prioritize those who are most likely to recover, again favors younger people.

That is where the theory is flawed. Younger healthier people are likely to recover than the elderly and sickly. Those are the people that need the most assistance. If it would ever come down to that (and I never seen that happen in my life) then it would have to go to first come--first serve. We are not a nation that decides who lives and who dies when in need of help. That's what God does.

It's the procedure doctors use. And no younger healthier people with a low blood oxygen level are in just as much danger as an older person in the same condition. Air doesn't care how old you are. And without it, everybody dies.

You act like these rules are nation-specific. They are medical procedures taught in Universities and carried out as far as I can tell universally.

 

[forkup]

Italy is facing serious challenges, with demand for critical care far outstripping supply. Health officials there are having to make very difficult decisions about who to treat – in the knowledge that deciding not to treat will very likely lead to death.

On Thursday the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care, issued guidelines advising doctors how to deploy scarce resources when the need for them is outstripped by the demand of critically ill patients. The guidelines state that priority should be given to those who have, first, “greater likelihood of survival and, second, who have more potential years of life”.

As a result, patients with underlying conditions and elderly patients, who are deemed to stand less chance of surviving the virus, may not be treated in favour of healthier and/or younger people who have more chance of recovery.

In the coming months we may face a similar situation in the UK where we do not have the resources necessary to treat all people who will catch Covid-19. So how do healthcare professionals decide who to treat?

Coronavirus may force UK doctors to decide who they’ll save | Jonathan Ives

Very frightening indeed. If you have chronic illnesses or are elderly, what would be going through your mind if you were diagnosed with COVID 19 in Italy, and possibly the entire UK down the road? As a person with both problems, I can tell you I would be scared Shtless.

But I don't have to worry about that, because I'm in the United States, and in the United States, we don't have socialized medical care. If I would unfortunately get the virus, I know I'll be well cared for. If my 88 year old father would get the virus, I know he will be well cared for. Same for my 86 year old mother.

Sweet heart when it comes to health care, compassion and solidarity italy can teach you many lessons. I have family and friends that live in italy and the stories are coming out of there should be taught in American schools to teach real human values.

Having said that millions of america are not insured, millions go bankrupt after s procedure.

I just did a procedure that costs nothing to italians , my inssurance paid 110k for it.

Stop your bullshit.

I'd suggest you do the same.

Most of the bankruptcies associated with medical is not because of medical bills. When people become ill, they often take a lot of time off of work. You can't collect unemployment if you are out of work for illness, and very few people buy long term disability insurance.

So the bills you've always paid in the past keep coming in, but you have no income to pay them. So people file bankruptcy with hopes of working in the future to straighten out their credit records.

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

I also want to know. What freedom do you think you have that I don't?

 

[Issa]

Sweet heart when it comes to health care, compassion and solidarity italy can teach you many lessons. I have family and friends that live in italy and the stories are coming out of there should be taught in American schools to teach real human values.

Having said that millions of america are not insured, millions go bankrupt after s procedure.

I just did a procedure that costs nothing to italians , my inssurance paid 110k for it.

Stop your bullshit.

I'd suggest you do the same.

Most of the bankruptcies associated with medical is not because of medical bills. When people become ill, they often take a lot of time off of work. You can't collect unemployment if you are out of work for illness, and very few people buy long term disability insurance.

So the bills you've always paid in the past keep coming in, but you have no income to pay them. So people file bankruptcy with hopes of working in the future to straighten out their credit records.

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

I have seen hownothrr countries take of their citizens and how Americans are suffering.
I love this country and I worked hard to say I'm an example of a ssuccessetul immigrant...Americans deserve better, but instead they have been taken advantage of by voting against their interest and beleive that their money should be used for useless stuff to them.
It makes me pissed off that you dont know better, but yet you are so stubborn and willing to die for false promises and lies.
I'm fully insured, I just had a rare procedure that costed 110k , in other parts of the world it costs the citizens nothing, I know many that couldn't get it done because they cant afford it in the greatest country on earth.

You dont like change I get it, you haven't seen better, I get it. ....but at least dont repeat lies and assumptions. We that came from other places and have families know better. Of both worlds and what can be beneficial for here, that's what made america what's great, everything is imported, people, ideas, brains, workforce...dont fool yourself that we are self sufficient and can live in a bubble.

America is good, you can be whatever you want but it is also a savage capitalism. That doesnt cater enough to the unfortunate and the poor.

Wake up.

What makes this country great is that we live by the US Constitution. In that Constitution, is listed what our founders wanted the federal government to be responsible for. If they wanted it to be responsible for everything at our whim, they would have never listed what they are to be in charge of.

You see, if we took all the suggestions of the left, and made this place what it wasn't supposed to be, we would be no different than any other country. But our founders wanted it to be different, and so do real Americans. We want to be different than those other countries which is why you came here in the first place.

What you don't understand about freedom is that you are not only free to succeed, but free to fail as well. The federal government is not supposed to be the decider between the two. Our founders wanted the federal government to stay our of our lives, not be a major part in it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger, on that article of the Constitution that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The constitution is not gospel...and the founders weren't Angel's sent from god. It needs to be modified and laws need to change.
I'm sorry but I cant go on in this subject with you...you are super brainwashed and thick. Enjoy seeing americans suffering just because you beleive lies. In fact you dont give a **** just like those that brainwashed you and endocrine you through media and education. Watch your money bail corporations, military contractors, politicians, and screwm socialism when it comes to health and education.

Dont answer me please, it irritates the shit out of me how stupid you guys are.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I never said the reason Italy has problems is because of socialized medical care, simply stating they are not doing as well of a job at handling something like this.

Leftists here have been preaching to us for years how our government should takeover the entire system; often pointing out countries that have socialized medical care. Yeah, it sounds great for problems like your wife had, but when the shit really hits the fan, it's not all what it's cracked up to be.

And for the umpteenth time why do you always revert to stating a premise and than never really even flesh out causality? Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the for-profit US. It has more ventilators per capita than the for-profit US. So how do you get from there, to calling being overwhelmed by a virus a failure of Socialized healthcare? Because they're being overwhelmed now? What again makes you believe that the US won't go the same way when they reach the same point in the infection cycle? Your beds are bigger? You can all of a sudden produce tens of thousands of ventilators? Ray, you aren't even capable of producing tests in sufficient quantities.

I understand this is a political forum, I understand that this crisis will be used by both sides to try to prove the validity of their own ideology. What I don't get is why someone would persist in pursuing a line of logic that is completely unsustainable if questioned? I appreciate your willingness to talk to me. At some point, though you should be able to recognize that what you are saying is intellectually unsustainable right? You don't challenge the facts when they are laid out before you, yet you seemingly always plow on like it hasn't been said at all.

My point is simply this: My post was to prove to the left that socialized medical care is not the savior for our society. We have problems, and socialized medical care has problems. Any medical care system you point to, I can do research and find out the problems with it.

If it's not lack of funding, it's cutting down on quality. If it's not long waiting times, it's using medication that is less than the most effective. Our border countries with socialized medical care has problems too.

We would never handle a huge outbreak like Italy is, which is to write-off people because of their age or illnesses. In fact, we would do the exact opposite. We would be giving more care to those people. Assuming you didn't read some of my other posts, we have medical equipment rental companies all over the country. I worked in the industry for a decade. We rented oxygen concentrators, oxygen tanks and gauges, liquid oxygen devices, yes, ventilators, and plenty of hospital beds. If a facility is short on their own equipment, they call rental companies for assistance. We'll be fine with our system.

Our ability to do testing is advancing as we speak. Where I live in the Cleveland area, hospitals are having drive-thru testing sites. You don't have to worry about catching anything by entering a hospital or clinic. You drive up, they take your blood, and you roll your window back up and go home.

So we are doing just fine with our medical care system, and even better than many other places.

Do you think the US is the only place that rents out medical equipment? I think you have absolutely not a clue how many the US shortly will likely need.

As to your statement that the US wouldn't do triage that way, I can only state that you are mistaken. If 2 people need a ventilator and only 1 is available and the choices are a 25 year old female and an 80 year old male that ventilator goes to the younger one.Crisis Standards of Care In this point 1,3,4 are applicable and they all say the same thing. You prioritize those that have the least amount of extra risk factors, in which age is a factor. You prioritize those that are at least risk for complications, especially when there's a recourse shortage. You prioritize those who are most likely to recover, again favors younger people.

That is where the theory is flawed. Younger healthier people are likely to recover than the elderly and sickly. Those are the people that need the most assistance. If it would ever come down to that (and I never seen that happen in my life) then it would have to go to first come--first serve. We are not a nation that decides who lives and who dies when in need of help. That's what God does.

It's the procedure doctors use. And no younger healthier people with a low blood oxygen level are in just as much danger as an older person in the same condition. Air doesn't care how old you are. And without it, everybody dies.

You act like these rules are nation-specific. They are medical procedures taught in Universities and carried out as far as I can tell universally.

Perhaps in your country, but not here. Doctors can't make decisions like that. If push came to shove, it would be first come first serve. Remember our system may be different than yours where ours has a liability factor. In other words, if somebody's brother or sister died because they were placed at the back of the line due to their preexisting medical conditions, you can bet your last dollar they will be hauled to court and sued just as the hospital would, especially if different races were involved.

We have plenty of oxygen devices here, including oxygen concentrators that make oxygen...... well, they don't really make oxygen itself, they take out the other properties of air leaving you with mostly oxygen, so it works the same. Just plug it into a wall and away you go.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I'd suggest you do the same.

Most of the bankruptcies associated with medical is not because of medical bills. When people become ill, they often take a lot of time off of work. You can't collect unemployment if you are out of work for illness, and very few people buy long term disability insurance.

So the bills you've always paid in the past keep coming in, but you have no income to pay them. So people file bankruptcy with hopes of working in the future to straighten out their credit records.

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

I have seen hownothrr countries take of their citizens and how Americans are suffering.
I love this country and I worked hard to say I'm an example of a ssuccessetul immigrant...Americans deserve better, but instead they have been taken advantage of by voting against their interest and beleive that their money should be used for useless stuff to them.
It makes me pissed off that you dont know better, but yet you are so stubborn and willing to die for false promises and lies.
I'm fully insured, I just had a rare procedure that costed 110k , in other parts of the world it costs the citizens nothing, I know many that couldn't get it done because they cant afford it in the greatest country on earth.

You dont like change I get it, you haven't seen better, I get it. ....but at least dont repeat lies and assumptions. We that came from other places and have families know better. Of both worlds and what can be beneficial for here, that's what made america what's great, everything is imported, people, ideas, brains, workforce...dont fool yourself that we are self sufficient and can live in a bubble.

America is good, you can be whatever you want but it is also a savage capitalism. That doesnt cater enough to the unfortunate and the poor.

Wake up.

What makes this country great is that we live by the US Constitution. In that Constitution, is listed what our founders wanted the federal government to be responsible for. If they wanted it to be responsible for everything at our whim, they would have never listed what they are to be in charge of.

You see, if we took all the suggestions of the left, and made this place what it wasn't supposed to be, we would be no different than any other country. But our founders wanted it to be different, and so do real Americans. We want to be different than those other countries which is why you came here in the first place.

What you don't understand about freedom is that you are not only free to succeed, but free to fail as well. The federal government is not supposed to be the decider between the two. Our founders wanted the federal government to stay our of our lives, not be a major part in it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger, on that article of the Constitution that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The constitution is not gospel...and the founders weren't Angel's sent from god. It needs to be modified and laws need to change.
I'm sorry but I cant go on in this subject with you...you are super brainwashed and thick. Enjoy seeing americans suffering just because you beleive lies. In fact you dont give a **** just like those that brainwashed you and endocrine you through media and education. Watch your money bail corporations, military contractors, politicians, and screwm socialism when it comes to health and education.

Dont answer me please, it irritates the shit out of me how stupid you guys are.

They may not have been angels, but they were brilliant enough to form the foundation of our country. Yes, they knew things would likely change, and they created an amendment process for that, but it takes most of the people to do the actual change, and not a simple majority.

Because of those founders, and the Constitution, we became the greatest and strongest country in just a few hundred years, especially when compared to other civilizations that have been around thousands. It's like the old saying goes, if it's not broke--don't fix it.

 

[Issa]

Dude you either delusional or in denial...americans are suffering when it comes to health care costs, forget about work or no work. In europe is your right here is a ******* Privilege and they brainwashed you that you shouldn't get it...but they can use your money for wars, bailouts and gold trips for the cheeto. Keep on marching sheep.

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

I have seen hownothrr countries take of their citizens and how Americans are suffering.
I love this country and I worked hard to say I'm an example of a ssuccessetul immigrant...Americans deserve better, but instead they have been taken advantage of by voting against their interest and beleive that their money should be used for useless stuff to them.
It makes me pissed off that you dont know better, but yet you are so stubborn and willing to die for false promises and lies.
I'm fully insured, I just had a rare procedure that costed 110k , in other parts of the world it costs the citizens nothing, I know many that couldn't get it done because they cant afford it in the greatest country on earth.

You dont like change I get it, you haven't seen better, I get it. ....but at least dont repeat lies and assumptions. We that came from other places and have families know better. Of both worlds and what can be beneficial for here, that's what made america what's great, everything is imported, people, ideas, brains, workforce...dont fool yourself that we are self sufficient and can live in a bubble.

America is good, you can be whatever you want but it is also a savage capitalism. That doesnt cater enough to the unfortunate and the poor.

Wake up.

What makes this country great is that we live by the US Constitution. In that Constitution, is listed what our founders wanted the federal government to be responsible for. If they wanted it to be responsible for everything at our whim, they would have never listed what they are to be in charge of.

You see, if we took all the suggestions of the left, and made this place what it wasn't supposed to be, we would be no different than any other country. But our founders wanted it to be different, and so do real Americans. We want to be different than those other countries which is why you came here in the first place.

What you don't understand about freedom is that you are not only free to succeed, but free to fail as well. The federal government is not supposed to be the decider between the two. Our founders wanted the federal government to stay our of our lives, not be a major part in it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger, on that article of the Constitution that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The constitution is not gospel...and the founders weren't Angel's sent from god. It needs to be modified and laws need to change.
I'm sorry but I cant go on in this subject with you...you are super brainwashed and thick. Enjoy seeing americans suffering just because you beleive lies. In fact you dont give a **** just like those that brainwashed you and endocrine you through media and education. Watch your money bail corporations, military contractors, politicians, and screwm socialism when it comes to health and education.

Dont answer me please, it irritates the shit out of me how stupid you guys are.

They may not have been angels, but they were brilliant enough to form the foundation of our country. Yes, they knew things would likely change, and they created an amendment process for that, but it takes most of the people to do the actual change, and not a simple majority.

Because of those founders, and the Constitution, we became the greatest and strongest country in just a few hundred years, especially when compared to other civilizations that have been around thousands. It's like the old saying goes, if it's not broke--don't fix it.

It is broke....
Where we rank in education? Health? Life expectancy ? Safety net? Crimes ? Obesity ?
Is not about the military and the big toys....I constantly travel the world and the US is not the greatest country....the only measure to decide if country is great or not is how people are treated and live.
You cheering for a savage capitalism that I'm sure hurts your personally on daily basis like millions of middle class and low class americans..but they brainwashed to beleive that you are living of lives. And no one compares.
I cant help you, you must old and your brain is not open an update.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Sorry, I don't trust the government, especially the Democrats. They have been trying to gain more and more control over the people. They've been pretty successful thus far. The only thing stopping them from total control is energy and healthcare. Once the government has total control over those two things, they will have total control over all of us.

If you are so against freedom and personal choices, you should have never moved here in the first place. We don't want to be like Europe. We don't want to be like Cuba or North Korea. Freedom is the most valued right we have, and we want to keep it that way. The less government control, the more freedom we have.

If you don't like the way we do things here, there are plenty of other places to live that suit your desires. There are even places in this country that do the same; places where only government has the money, only government has guns, nobody else is rich or poor, you are all the same. Free government healthcare, government decides what you're going to eat, a place where working is an option. We call them prisons.

I have seen hownothrr countries take of their citizens and how Americans are suffering.
I love this country and I worked hard to say I'm an example of a ssuccessetul immigrant...Americans deserve better, but instead they have been taken advantage of by voting against their interest and beleive that their money should be used for useless stuff to them.
It makes me pissed off that you dont know better, but yet you are so stubborn and willing to die for false promises and lies.
I'm fully insured, I just had a rare procedure that costed 110k , in other parts of the world it costs the citizens nothing, I know many that couldn't get it done because they cant afford it in the greatest country on earth.

You dont like change I get it, you haven't seen better, I get it. ....but at least dont repeat lies and assumptions. We that came from other places and have families know better. Of both worlds and what can be beneficial for here, that's what made america what's great, everything is imported, people, ideas, brains, workforce...dont fool yourself that we are self sufficient and can live in a bubble.

America is good, you can be whatever you want but it is also a savage capitalism. That doesnt cater enough to the unfortunate and the poor.

Wake up.

What makes this country great is that we live by the US Constitution. In that Constitution, is listed what our founders wanted the federal government to be responsible for. If they wanted it to be responsible for everything at our whim, they would have never listed what they are to be in charge of.

You see, if we took all the suggestions of the left, and made this place what it wasn't supposed to be, we would be no different than any other country. But our founders wanted it to be different, and so do real Americans. We want to be different than those other countries which is why you came here in the first place.

What you don't understand about freedom is that you are not only free to succeed, but free to fail as well. The federal government is not supposed to be the decider between the two. Our founders wanted the federal government to stay our of our lives, not be a major part in it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger, on that article of the Constitution that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The constitution is not gospel...and the founders weren't Angel's sent from god. It needs to be modified and laws need to change.
I'm sorry but I cant go on in this subject with you...you are super brainwashed and thick. Enjoy seeing americans suffering just because you beleive lies. In fact you dont give a **** just like those that brainwashed you and endocrine you through media and education. Watch your money bail corporations, military contractors, politicians, and screwm socialism when it comes to health and education.

Dont answer me please, it irritates the shit out of me how stupid you guys are.

They may not have been angels, but they were brilliant enough to form the foundation of our country. Yes, they knew things would likely change, and they created an amendment process for that, but it takes most of the people to do the actual change, and not a simple majority.

Because of those founders, and the Constitution, we became the greatest and strongest country in just a few hundred years, especially when compared to other civilizations that have been around thousands. It's like the old saying goes, if it's not broke--don't fix it.

It is broke....
Where we rank in education? Health? Life expectancy ? Safety net? Crimes ? Obesity ?
Is not about the military and the big toys....I constantly travel the world and the US is not the greatest country....the only measure to decide if country is great or not is how people are treated and live.
You cheering for a savage capitalism that I'm sure hurts your personally on daily basis like millions of middle class and low class americans..but they brainwashed to beleive that you are living of lives. And no one compares.
I cant help you, you must old and your brain is not open an update.

I'm not old, but older. Before you even knew this country existed (or maybe even born) I was living in it. You see, looking at your list above, you are stating we are not the greatest because government didn't totally address those issues. But guess what? They did! Government is involved in our education, our health, our life expectancy, multiple safety nets, and obesity is the one personal decision, however Hussein's wife tried to address that in total failure. DumBama forced restaurants to list calorie count because only government (in the mind of a liberal) is smart enough to tell you that a Big Mac combo is fattening!

If the US is not the greatest country, WTF are you doing living here? Why are millions trying to penetrate our borders to come here? Why do the legal immigrants spend thousands of dollars wait for many years, just be be accepted and be a citizen of this country? Why did thousands die trying to get here illegally?

Since you're an immigrant yourself, tell me what other country is better, and why you don't move there instead? And don't say it's because of the money, because that would highlight one of the greatest assets of our country which is capitalism. It is capitalism why people want to come here; to be rewarded for extra hard work they were never rewarded with in their former country. It's capitalism that made us one of the most wealthiest, if not the wealthiest countries in the world.

 

[Issa]

I have seen hownothrr countries take of their citizens and how Americans are suffering.
I love this country and I worked hard to say I'm an example of a ssuccessetul immigrant...Americans deserve better, but instead they have been taken advantage of by voting against their interest and beleive that their money should be used for useless stuff to them.
It makes me pissed off that you dont know better, but yet you are so stubborn and willing to die for false promises and lies.
I'm fully insured, I just had a rare procedure that costed 110k , in other parts of the world it costs the citizens nothing, I know many that couldn't get it done because they cant afford it in the greatest country on earth.

You dont like change I get it, you haven't seen better, I get it. ....but at least dont repeat lies and assumptions. We that came from other places and have families know better. Of both worlds and what can be beneficial for here, that's what made america what's great, everything is imported, people, ideas, brains, workforce...dont fool yourself that we are self sufficient and can live in a bubble.

America is good, you can be whatever you want but it is also a savage capitalism. That doesnt cater enough to the unfortunate and the poor.

Wake up.

What makes this country great is that we live by the US Constitution. In that Constitution, is listed what our founders wanted the federal government to be responsible for. If they wanted it to be responsible for everything at our whim, they would have never listed what they are to be in charge of.

You see, if we took all the suggestions of the left, and made this place what it wasn't supposed to be, we would be no different than any other country. But our founders wanted it to be different, and so do real Americans. We want to be different than those other countries which is why you came here in the first place.

What you don't understand about freedom is that you are not only free to succeed, but free to fail as well. The federal government is not supposed to be the decider between the two. Our founders wanted the federal government to stay our of our lives, not be a major part in it.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger, on that article of the Constitution that grants Congress the right, of expending on articles of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
James Madison, annals of Congress, 1794

The constitution is not gospel...and the founders weren't Angel's sent from god. It needs to be modified and laws need to change.
I'm sorry but I cant go on in this subject with you...you are super brainwashed and thick. Enjoy seeing americans suffering just because you beleive lies. In fact you dont give a **** just like those that brainwashed you and endocrine you through media and education. Watch your money bail corporations, military contractors, politicians, and screwm socialism when it comes to health and education.

Dont answer me please, it irritates the shit out of me how stupid you guys are.

They may not have been angels, but they were brilliant enough to form the foundation of our country. Yes, they knew things would likely change, and they created an amendment process for that, but it takes most of the people to do the actual change, and not a simple majority.

Because of those founders, and the Constitution, we became the greatest and strongest country in just a few hundred years, especially when compared to other civilizations that have been around thousands. It's like the old saying goes, if it's not broke--don't fix it.

It is broke....
Where we rank in education? Health? Life expectancy ? Safety net? Crimes ? Obesity ?
Is not about the military and the big toys....I constantly travel the world and the US is not the greatest country....the only measure to decide if country is great or not is how people are treated and live.
You cheering for a savage capitalism that I'm sure hurts your personally on daily basis like millions of middle class and low class americans..but they brainwashed to beleive that you are living of lives. And no one compares.
I cant help you, you must old and your brain is not open an update.

I'm not old, but older. Before you even knew this country existed (or maybe even born) I was living in it. You see, looking at your list above, you are stating we are not the greatest because government didn't totally address those issues. But guess what? They did! Government is involved in our education, our health, our life expectancy, multiple safety nets, and obesity is the one personal decision, however Hussein's wife tried to address that in total failure. DumBama forced restaurants to list calorie count because only government (in the mind of a liberal) is smart enough to tell you that a Big Mac combo is fattening!

If the US is not the greatest country, WTF are you doing living here? Why are millions trying to penetrate our borders to come here? Why do the legal immigrants spend thousands of dollars wait for many years, just be be accepted and be a citizen of this country? Why did thousands die trying to get here illegally?

Since you're an immigrant yourself, tell me what other country is better, and why you don't move there instead? And don't say it's because of the money, because that would highlight one of the greatest assets of our country which is capitalism. It is capitalism why people want to come here; to be rewarded for extra hard work they were never rewarded with in their former country. It's capitalism that made us one of the most wealthiest, if not the wealthiest countries in the world.

People have been migrating since day one that voids your argument, why many wants to be here or there. People move where they feel they can do better. Doesnt always mean is the best place or decision.
Many counties have a way better quality of life than the US, hence that's why America is not the best country in the world. They might have the biggest army, but still lost many conflicts...doesnt have the best education, health system, lower crimes, drug abuse and so forth.

Isn't the government supposed to be by the people for the people ? Than let the majority decide how the government spends their money, instead trillions for useless wars, let's take care of the sick, the poor and mainly the dumbest uneducated millions in this great land. As an immigrant whose English is the 4th language I was shocked to find myself surrounded by natives who struggled with their own language, comes the finals i was even more shocked at how clueless they were in so many subjects and yet education is paid for by loans that they will have to pay off for years, while most of the world kids dont have to pay a penny to get higher education.

You are doomed, millenials have to wait a bit till your generation hits the door before things get better at all or maybe it will be too late.