Socialism and the purpose of government

[dblack]

There ya go...Might makes right...The mindset of the mobocrat in full bloom.

what the hell did what I say have to do with "might makes right"? are you drunk?

Might makes right is the operative principle behind the "we the people" excuse.

We hold elections every 2 years to choose those to represent us...we get what we deserve.

We get what we deserve because we've allowed government to claim far, far too much power over society.

 

[Oddball]

Anytime someone takes your money, and spends it against your will, they're interfering with your freedom, and imposing restrictions on your. Would you consider it interfering with freedom if income tax was 100%?

nobody is taking your money. Nobody forces you to pay taxes, nobody forces you to stay in a society that you do not wish to be a part of. We have a wide open border and you are free to leave anytime you wish.

Very 'libertarian' of you.

I smoked his fraud ass out months ago....He's less of a conspicuous gadfly of a fraud than g5000, but a fraud nonetheless.

 

[Oddball]

On this point, I agree. Which is why I believe that establishing anarchy is impossible. Releasing anarchy on a society is like releasing a highly reactive gas, like chlorine, into the atmosphere. Within seconds, the gas becomes something else. Within hours anarchy will devolve into some form of government or state.

You don't establish anarchy....You just STFU, MYOB, live-and-let-live, carry your own weight, peacably trade with your neighbors, and it just happens.

As bripat already pointed out, voluntary associations and social pressure are very effective, and don't involve any centralized coercive state.

 

[Hum Dinger]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The Purpose of our Federal Government:

"in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

Limited socialism can be justified as a method of establishing economic Justice, and promoting the general welfare. It can also be justified as securing Liberty, since capitalism leads to defacto slavery.

Any other dumb questions?

Do you think that both the economy and society should be run democratically?

When there is gross economic or social injustice it's the government's responsibility protect the American people - to provide for the common defense.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Anytime someone takes your money, and spends it against your will, they're interfering with your freedom, and imposing restrictions on your. Would you consider it interfering with freedom if income tax was 100%?

nobody is taking your money. Nobody forces you to pay taxes, nobody forces you to stay in a society that you do not wish to be a part of. We have a wide open border and you are free to leave anytime you wish.

Very 'libertarian' of you.

Why yes it

 

[Oddball]

When there is gross economic or social injustice it's the government's responsibility protect the American people - to provide for the common defense.

Gubmint is the primary perpetrator of economic and social injustice, Karl.

 

[Oddball]

We get what we deserve because we've allowed government to claim far, far too much power over society.

Who deserves being shaken down to support a violent protection racket?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Except...there's nowhere to go...so they STILL have a monopoly on power.

That is a problem in today's world. Though from what I understand there is no formal government in Somalia, so maybe that is the place to start.

Yes, but those were natural relationships. They were familial. The commies want to force a familial relationship between strangers. It will NEVER work.

That is the case with every society above the size of a tribe. The larger the society the weaker the ties are between the individuals. It cannot be changed short of not having large societies.

It has worked for all of recorded history (which is why we have recorded history)

On this point, I agree. Which is why I believe that establishing anarchy is impossible. Releasing anarchy on a society is like releasing a highly reactive gas, like chlorine, into the atmosphere. Within seconds, the gas becomes something else. Within hours anarchy will devolve into some form of government or state.

I agree.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Well, yes you do pay them voluntarily every time you pay your taxes. you do not have to live here, you do not have to pay your taxes. You voluntarily choose to live in this country, nobody is making you. When you choose to be a part of a society and reap the benefits of being a member you voluntarily choose all that goes with that, even the parts you may not like.

Gator, sometimes you are on, and sometimes you are out in left field. This is left field.

"Voluntary" implies that refusal will result in no force. Don't pay your taxes and see what happens.

We don't have to live here. Where do we go? We have no choice. This is a false premise.

When did we ever get a choice to be a part of society? We were born into it without our consent.

But, you did touch on one important point. THE BENEFITS of society. What are they really?

I argue (without repudiation from anyone here or elsewhere) that the ONLY benefits of society is peaceful existence and free trade. Humans figured out long ago that they all benefited when they agreed to stop trying to kill each other for food, territory, and breeding rights, and that to do so, they needed to live under a set of rules. Such an existence requires everyone to pull their own weight. When some stop pulling their weight, and demand the fruits of the labor of others, the benefit of society is lost. It's time to start killing each other again.

That's where we are right now. It's time for the truce to end.

.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

There ya go...Might makes right...The mindset of the mobocrat in full bloom.

what the hell did what I say have to do with "might makes right"? are you drunk?

Might makes right is the operative principle behind the "we the people" excuse.

We hold elections every 2 years to choose those to represent us...we get what we deserve.

We get what we deserve because we've allowed government to claim far, far too much power over society.

on this we agree.

 

[bripat9643]

The only thing it insures is that a lot of farmers can line their pockets huge amounts of swag take from the taxpayers. Somehow we never starved before the government created these programs.

We were never a country of 300 million people then. The country survived without electricity and roads and railroads yet I would not want to go back to those days.

Your theory that government and modern technology are inextricably linked has no factual basis.

Well, yes you do pay them voluntarily every time you pay your taxes. you do not have to live here, you do not have to pay your taxes. You voluntarily choose to live in this country, nobody is making you. When you choose to be a part of a society and reap the benefits of being a member you voluntarily choose all that goes with that, even the parts you may not like.

It's no surprise that you don't know the meaning of the word "voluntary." According to your definition, I give my wallet to a mugger "voluntarily" if he says "hand it over or take a bullet in the stomach." In typical statist fashion, you exhibit the ethics of an extortion racket. Guido the leg breaker says you don't have to pay his "protection" money. You can setup your business somewhere else if you don't like his "services."

It's amusing to observe how statists use exactly the same arguments as criminals use to justify their actions.

Furthermore, the government is not the same thing as society. How does benefiting from society entitle the government to take a slice of what I produce?

I am against initiation of force against innocent people, I just do not think you and I agree on what that looks like or who is innocent.

You are most definitely not against the initiation of force. You display the ethics of a thug, and you use the same arguments. Under your definition of the term, every criminal can make the same claim.

How am I not "innocent" when the government comes to collect swag to pay the farmer his crop subsidies? Please post the definition of "innocent" that allows that kind of behavior?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

When there is gross economic or social injustice it's the government's responsibility protect the American people - to provide for the common defense.

Gubmint is the primary perpetrator of economic and social injustice, Karl.

There is no real government in Somalia, have you ever thought about moving there?

 

[Oddball]

Well, yes you do pay them voluntarily every time you pay your taxes. you do not have to live here, you do not have to pay your taxes. You voluntarily choose to live in this country, nobody is making you. When you choose to be a part of a society and reap the benefits of being a member you voluntarily choose all that goes with that, even the parts you may not like.

Gator, sometimes you are on, and sometimes you are out in left field. This is left field.

"Voluntary" implies that refusal will result in no force. Don't pay your taxes and see what happens.

We don't have to live here. Where do we go? We have no choice. This is a false premise.

When did we ever get a choice to be a part of society? We were born into it without our consent.

But, you did touch on one important point. THE BENEFITS of society. What are they really?

I argue (without repudiation from anyone here or elsewhere) that the ONLY benefits of society is peaceful existence and free trade. Humans figured out long ago that they all benefited when they agreed to stop trying to kill each other for food, territory, and breeding rights, and that to do so, they needed to live under a set of rules. Such an existence requires everyone to pull their own weight. When some stop pulling their weight, and demand the fruits of the labor of others, the benefit of society is lost. It's time to start killing each other again.

That's where we are right now. It's time for the truce to end.

.

IOW....

 

[Hum Dinger]

When there is gross economic or social injustice it's the government's responsibility protect the American people - to provide for the common defense.

Gubmint is the primary perpetrator of economic and social injustice, Karl.

That has to be one of the stupidest statements ever made on this message board!

The U.S. government has been the single greatest institution in this world for protecting people's rights!

The very concept of people having rights was initiated by the founding fathers of this nation.

You may want to go back to the days of Kings and slaves, but the rest of us prefer modern government.

Sorry if that limits all you 'would be' kings.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

That is a problem in today's world. Though from what I understand there is no formal government in Somalia, so maybe that is the place to start.

Or, it's time for things to change here, peacefully or otherwise. Why should we have to leave. Make us.

That is the case with every society above the size of a tribe. The larger the society the weaker the ties are between the individuals. It cannot be changed short of not having large societies.

So, a big, fat, huge, all-powerful, FedZilla central government is a really bad idea?

I completely agree.

Societies work when most people therein have the same goals. Half our nation give not one single **** about some rights, with the other half give no shit about other rights. It's a war over who can **** us out of which rights.

.

 

[Oddball]

When there is gross economic or social injustice it's the government's responsibility protect the American people - to provide for the common defense.

Gubmint is the primary perpetrator of economic and social injustice, Karl.

That has to be one of the stupidest statements ever made on this message board!

The U.S. government has been the single greatest institution in this world for protecting people's rights!

The very concept of people having rights was initiated by the founding fathers of this nation.

You may want to go back to the days of Kings and slaves, but the rest of us prefer modern government.

Sorry if that limits all you 'would be' kings.

That's twice today...You're pretty good at this fallacy...

 

[bripat9643]

They already had government. All they brought it with them. The Indians lived there for thousands of years with no formal government. They had no means of enforcing laws other than social pressure.

once again your knowledge of history is lacking, to put it nicely.

All of the Indian tribes had a system of governing with leaders and rules.

They had leaders. There was no organized means of compulsion. The rules were entirely informal. You are redefining government to the point of meaninglessness.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Gator, sometimes you are on, and sometimes you are out in left field. This is left field.

"Voluntary" implies that refusal will result in no force. Don't pay your taxes and see what happens.

We don't have to live here. Where do we go? We have no choice. This is a false premise.

When did we ever get a choice to be a part of society? We were born into it without our consent.

I find it interesting that for all the bitching about our country, how much they are robbing us and screwing us and all the rest, pretty much everyone still agrees there is no where better to go.

There are 195 countries out there with varying levels of governing, so there are places to go. But everyone living here knows that they have it good, so they do not leave.

But, you did touch on one important point. THE BENEFITS of society. What are they really?

I argue (without repudiation from anyone here or elsewhere) that the ONLY benefits of society is peaceful existence and free trade. Humans figured out long ago that they all benefited when they agreed to stop trying to kill each other for food, territory, and breeding rights, and that to do so, they needed to live under a set of rules. Such an existence requires everyone to pull their own weight. When some stop pulling their weight, and demand the fruits of the labor of others, the benefit of society is lost. It's time to start killing each other again.

That's where we are right now. It's time for the truce to end.

.

What is your solution?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

They already had government. All they brought it with them. The Indians lived there for thousands of years with no formal government. They had no means of enforcing laws other than social pressure.

once again your knowledge of history is lacking, to put it nicely.

All of the Indian tribes had a system of governing with leaders and rules.

They had leaders. There was no organized means of compulsion. You are redefining government to the point of meaninglessness.

Yes they did, you followed the rules of the leaders or you were killed or banished. Seems a pretty good means of compulsion.

 

[Oddball]

So, a big, fat, huge, all-powerful, FedZilla central government is a really bad idea?

I completely agree.

Societies work when most people therein have the same goals. Half our nation give not one single **** about some rights, with the other half give no shit about other rights. It's a war over who can **** us out of which rights.

.

Disagree with your ratios.

It's roughly 1/4 vs. 1/4, while the other half of us lay low and get shafted nonetheless.