So It Is Shaping Up To All Muslim Troops In Lebanon

[Annie]

Surprise, our State Department went along with following the French, now the Europeans are pulling out, leaving Indonesia and others to supply troops to disarm Hizbollah.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/21/world/middleeast/21mideast.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

PARIS, Aug. 20 — The shaky, United Nations-brokered cease-fire in Lebanon suffered another blow on Sunday when the European countries that had been called upon to provide the backbone of a peacekeeping force delayed a decision on committing troops until the mission is more clearly defined.

Tyler Hicks for The New York Times

A Lebanese civilian reacted to the ruins in Beirut Sunday. Prime Minister Fouad Siniora called the bombing “a crime against humanity.”

Their reservations postponed any action on the force at least until Wednesday, when the European Union will take up the issue.

Haunted by their experiences in Bosnia in the 1990’s, when their forces were unable to stop widespread ethnic killing, European governments are insisting upon clarifying the chain of command and rules of engagement before plunging into the even greater complexities of the Middle East.

“In the past, when peacekeeping missions were not properly defined, we’ve seen major failures,’’ a spokeswoman for the French Foreign Ministry, Agnès Romatet-Espagne, said Sunday. “There are the bad memories of Bosnia. This time we want the answers beforehand, so we don’t come to the problems when they have happened.’’

In addition,

a senior French official said, “Italy, Spain and Finland have raised the same questions as France has.”​

Following the usual diplomatic practice, the official asked not to be identified. A spokesman for the Spanish Foreign Ministry said Spain was willing to send troops, “but the rules have to be clarified and agreed on.”

Some countries, like Australia, which has placed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, have refused to commit troops. “We have no intention of making any significant contribution,” said a senior Australian government official, who was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter. “We don’t have any confidence in it. It is not going to have the mandate to disarm Hezbollah.”...

 

[Adam's Apple]

Will we ever learn the lesson that we can't trust the French, and they are not our ally?

 

[ekrem]

Turkey will send. (not yet clear how much)
Italy will send Troops. (about 3.000)
Spain will send (500-800)
France sent already 200 soldiers.

And some others.
But only of those countries who have diplomatic relations with Israel.
And i prefer France not takeing to much engagement there.

 

[Adam's Apple]

France sent already 200 soldiers.

I think they've upped that to a whole 400 now! That's really generous of them and certainly testifies to their desire to do their share to keep international peace. Maybe they think if only a tiny number of French soldiers are sent the unassimilated Muslims in France won't notice, and they won't have to spend time and resources putting out fires all over the country again.

 

[ekrem]

I think they've upped that to a whole 400 now! That's really generous of them and certainly testifies to their desire to do their share to keep international peace. Maybe they think if only a tiny number of French soldiers are sent the unassimilated Muslims in France won't notice, and they won't have to spend time and resources putting out fires all over the country again.

France's soldiers aren't wholly muslim. It does not matter.
Israel objects contributing countries which do not recognize Israel and have no diplomativ relations to them.
So Indonesia, like Kathianne stated in the first post, won't be added to UNIFIL.
Also Malaysia.

So, there are not many Muslim countries left to participate in this troops.

 

[trobinett]

France's soldiers aren't wholly muslim. It does not matter.
Israel objects contributing countries which do not recognize Israel and have no diplomativ relations to them.
So Indonesia, like Kathianne stated in the first post, won't be added to UNIFIL.
Also Malaysia.

So, there are not many Muslim countries left to participate in this troops.

canavar, France doesn't matter? Well, common ground.

This is but ANOTHER in a long line of classic f@ck up's by the United Nations, and the leadership is just amazing..............

 

[onedomino]

Some countries, like Australia, which has placed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, have refused to commit troops. “We have no intention of making any significant contribution,” said a senior Australian government official, who was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter. “We don’t have any confidence in it. It is not going to have the mandate to disarm Hezbollah.”...

After the toothless UNSC resolution pushed by the French and Bush Admin, the Australian position is the only reasonable response. It is just a matter of time before the war starts again because the UNSC is not responsible enough to actually disarm Hizbollah. Iran has won this round due to the French and US collaspe in the UNSC. When the war starts again, Israeli military action will go after Hizbollah with much greater intensity than it has thus far demonstrated. Future combat will test the loyality of Syria and Iran to their proxy Hizbollah. We already know that the MSM (especially foreign media) will vehemently attack Israel, no matter what attrocities are committed by Hizbollah.

 

[ekrem]

I did not say that France doesn't matter. But I ment that it does not matter whether there are Muslims, Christs or Buddhists in France's army.
No country will disarm Hizbullah. It is a inner Lebanese thing and it is better that Hizbullah integrates in Lebanese Armed Forces. Like I would wish for Hamas to integrate in Palestinian Security Forces.

This Australian statement is nothing worth. As if they would have deployed troops to fight Hizbullah. Every Autralian would have been sent in coffins back to down under. What Israel with its whole Military complex and short logistic ways didn't achieved, nobody else will.

Nobody will disarm Hezbullah. That's the truth. Israeli action against Lebanon helped to profile Hizbullah as saviors in view of Lebanese peoples.
Don't forget, that there are Hamas ministers in Lebanon. So they are part of the government. And would there be today elections, Hezbullah would raise their positions as the outcome of the elections.

What matters is, that there is an effective security mechanism on the boarder of Lebanon-Israel in both ways, that there are no assaults vice versa and no rockets or bombs or F-16 launched. What the Hizbullah and Lebanese people then make is their own business. And till now all Lebanese statements go into that direction, that Hezbullah will not be disarmed.

Israel must understand, that to stabilize the regions, that they have to talk to its neighbours. Especially to Syria, Syria is critical for Iranian influence.
Syria wanted direct talks with Israel for years. But all efforts, be it direct by Syria or via 3rd states have been blocked by Israel and USA.
The reason is, that in such talks the question of removal of Israel from the Golan will araise.

You have also to question, why Syria is so related with Iran.
Hezbullah is only a player of the actor Iran. Syria has its interests on its lands (Golan). And when there is no solution on the negotiation-table, then it goes over conflict.
The Syrian financial accounting as well as Syrian territory is open for Iran to help Lebanon (say Hezbullah).

Syria by itself is non-stop faced with the Israeli Defence Forces. This is in no way tolerateable for Syria. The capital Damascus is just a step from the Israelian military-"bases" on Golan.
This is the position of Syrian Army and Syrian presidents all over the last years.
So you cannot weaken Hezbullah solong Syria cooperates with Iran and lets Iran uses itsterritory and its financial accoutings in Syria to redirect it to Hezbullah.

France in the beginning seemed to take over the command of this newly deployed troops to Lebanon. Now Italy wants to take the command of these troops.
But Italian trooops will be stationed on the boarder of Lebanon-Syria.

Turkish position of troop deployment is still not yet clear. We are willing to contribute. But before we take the final decision, we first must talk to all players which can make unpredictable surprises there for Turkish troops.
In This context we met allready Israel, Lebanon, UK, Saudi-Arabia and Iran.
Tomorrow are the final talks with Syria's Assad.

We clear the positions before with all actors so there is no surprise.
And Hibullah will not attack Turkish troops, as Hizbullah is played by Iran and Syria.
So when Hizbullah would attack Turkey it is the same as Iran and Syria would attack Turkey. And this is not in their interest.

Turkish media mentions something like "blue zone" the last days, which is a geographical name for Lebanon-Israel boarder till inwards to a river in Lebanese territory.
Our Foreign Minister was in Israel the last days and it seems, that Turkish troops will be deployed to this critical zone. This is Hezbullah interest sphere.
Israel said from the first day on, that they want Turkish troops in this mission, but we have not yet decided allthough everything seems that we will contribute.

After tomorrow talks with Syria the position will be cleared. Then we will see with how much troops Turkey will participate.
This is a UN-Mission, but i think not that Turkish troops will be mixed with Italian troops or somebody else's troops.
There will be a firm working zone for Turkish troops as it will be for Italian troops. I read today, that Israel wants Italian troops stationed on Lebanon-Syria boarder.

And Turkish troops will not disarm Hizbullah. Turkish troops will make buildup mission like in Afghanistan and secue the boarder Israel-Lebnon.
And Hizbullah will not attack Turkish troops as this would lead to a massive military hardware and soldier deployment from Turkey to this region to clear Hizbullah from this "Turkish region" with coordinance by Israeli Army. And of course sour Turkish relations to Iran in a time where Iran wants deeper ccoperation with Turkey.
But this will not happen. Turkish troops even walk with none bullet-proof vests in Kabul nothing happen to them.
You win the citizens you win security.

 

[red states rule]

Will we ever learn the lesson that we can't trust the French, and they are not our ally?

The French are coming to save the day!

 

[onedomino]

I did not say that France doesn't matter. But I ment that it does not matter whether there are Muslims, Christs or Buddhists in France's army.
No country will disarm Hizbullah. It is a inner Lebanese thing and it is better that Hizbullah integrates in Lebanese Armed Forces. Like I would wish for Hamas to integrate in Palestinian Security Forces.

This Australian statement is nothing worth. As if they would have deployed troops to fight Hizbullah. Every Autralian would have been sent in coffins back to down under. What Israel with its whole Military complex and short logistic ways didn't achieved, nobody else will.

Brilliant! What a delightfull suggestion: integrate terrorist organizations (Hamas and Hizbollah) with Lebanon Armed Forces and Palestinian Security Forces. That should help set the entire region on fire. Canavar, you have no idea how capable the Australian military is. Your nasty threat of sending Australians home in coffins should be taken seriously only in as much as it reflects common attitudes in Turkey. We take threats against Australians as threats against America. Remember that.

 

[jillian]

Brilliant! What a delightfull suggestion: integrate terrorist organizations (Hamas and Hizbollah) with Lebanon Armed Forces and Palestinian Security Forces. That should help set the entire region on fire. Canavar, you have no idea how capable the Australian military is. Your nasty threat of sending Australians home in coffins should be taken seriously only in as much as it reflects common attitudes in Turkey. We take threats against Australians as threats against America. Remember that.

Gotta love it. Mix terrorists in with the regular forces so you can't tell the good guys from the bad. Good on!!! As if it isn't hard enough to tell the good guys from the bad guys as it is.

Why on earth should Israel's safety be in the hands of people who don't want to assure or believe in her continued existence? I love how the Israel-haters always try couching things in terms of this "I don't understand the big deal" type of thing...when what they're talking about is clearly designed to endanger Israel and leave her to her enemies.

And I think the ANZACS might differ as to the assessment of the Aussie skills. They've been known to put up quite a fight when need be.

 

[ekrem]

Brilliant! What a delightfull suggestion: integrate terrorist organizations (Hamas and Hizbollah) with Lebanon Armed Forces and Palestinian Security Forces. That should help set the entire region on fire. Canavar, you have no idea how capable the Australian military is. Your nasty threat of sending Australians home in coffins should be taken seriously only in as much as it reflects common attitudes in Turkey. We take threats against Australians as threats against America. Remember that.

To whom Hezbullah is terrorists?
For Lebanon not. They are there seen as saviours. EU also does not see Hizbullah as Terrorists, Hizbullah is not on EU terrorist organizations list.
This is exactly the situation America plays for years with "Your terrorist not my terrorist".

And fine for you when you will defend Australians.
I made no threats against Australians. But i take the australian statement as an dumb statement and comment it so.
Whether Australians are brave or not, Australian soldier disarming Hizbullah will be sent back in a coffin:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/basbug/YENIORTADOGU.jpg

Where is by saying so a threat to Australians?
So face it, nobody wil disarm Hizbullah. Israel with more military power and shorter logistic ways even didn't achieved it in a very very small territory.

 

[ekrem]

Gotta love it. Mix terrorists in with the regular forces so you can't tell the good guys from the bad. Good on!!! As if it isn't hard enough to tell the good guys from the bad guys as it is.

Why on earth should Israel's safety be in the hands of people who don't want to assure or believe in her continued existence? I love how the Israel-haters always try couching things in terms of this "I don't understand the big deal" type of thing...when what they're talking about is clearly designed to endanger Israel and leave her to her enemies.

And I think the ANZACS might differ as to the assessment of the Aussie skills. They've been known to put up quite a fight when need be.

Not mixing, but integrateing. It is a difference.
10 military forces in a coutry = 10 diffenerent interests.

Look Iraq or warlords in Afghanistan.
You integrate it all in the Government army, interests will be made by consensus and it widens Government military's influence to everywhere capable of controlling things from the capital. And the capital gives the order. Look, Hizbullah has 2-3 ministers out of much?

In a governemtn Hizbullahs influence is small. When they have their own security forces, their influence is big.

 

[Said1]

To whom Hezbullah is terrorists?
For Lebanon not. They are there seen as saviours. EU also does not see Hizbullah as Terrorists, Hizbullah is not on EU terrorist organizations list.
This is exactly the situation America plays for years with "Your terrorist not my terrorist".

And fine for you when you will defend Australians.
I made no threats against Australians. But i take the australian statement as an dumb statement and comment it so.
Whether Australians are brave or not, Australian soldier disarming Hizbullah will be sent back in a coffin:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/basbug/YENIORTADOGU.jpg

Where is by saying so a threat to Australians?
So face it, nobody wil disarm Hizbullah. Israel with more military power and shorter logistic ways even didn't achieved it in a very very small territory.

They are considered a militia by the UN. Resolution 1559, calls for the removal of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias, including but not limited to Hezbolah and Syrian militias. This resolution and all it contains is also supported by the EU.

 

[jillian]

Not mixing, but integrateing. It is a difference.
10 military forces in a coutry = 10 diffenerent interests.

Look Iraq or warlords in Afghanistan.
You integrate it all in the Government army, interests will be made by consensus and it widens Government military's influence to everywhere capable of controlling things from the capital.

What's the difference between mixing and integrating. Sounds like you're parsing words. Either way, the result is the same. There IS no controlling Hezballah by the weak Lebanese government. But having seen your post about the hero Hezbollites, I figure that isn't a problem for you.

Israel isn't stupid enough to stand by and let it's interests be in Hezballah's hands.

 

[Annie]

Brilliant! What a delightfull suggestion: integrate terrorist organizations (Hamas and Hizbollah) with Lebanon Armed Forces and Palestinian Security Forces. That should help set the entire region on fire. Canavar, you have no idea how capable the Australian military is. Your nasty threat of sending Australians home in coffins should be taken seriously only in as much as it reflects common attitudes in Turkey. We take threats against Australians as threats against America. Remember that.

I think Canavar represents the region well, with both his biases and perspectives, not a bad thing to read. We too have our biases and perspectives, it's natural and interesting to see the chasm, to say the least.

 

[ekrem]

What's the difference between mixing and integrating. Sounds like you're parsing words. Either way, the result is the same. There IS no controlling Hezballah by the weak Lebanese government. But having seen your post about the hero Hezbollites, I figure that isn't a problem for you.

Israel isn't stupid enough to stand by and let it's interests be in Hezballah's hands.

The difference between mixing and integrateng is that when you integrate Hizubullah into Official Lebanese army, there will be no private Army by Nasrallah or somebody else beside the government. It is one army.

In a state, power-mechanism is shared by different state-organizations.
So when Hizbullah wants then the army act against Israel it needs the majority in the democracy. To make its demands convert into practice.
Otherwise it is the minority demanding things.

The actual situation is, that a minority is shapeing Lebanon's fate by a private force.
So which way to go?

And to Kathianne:
It is not my regional view or sympathy with anyone or something else.
It is all about Lebanon, so we have to respect the views of the Lbanese people.
And Lebanese officials told to Turkish foreign minister when he was touring the region, that Hizbullah will not be disarmed and that Hizbullah is part of Lebanon.

Also the citizens of Lebann have sympathies with Hezbullah.
So the best is, to ensure, that Lebanon government gets full controll of Hizbullah. So that there isn't 2 different forces in one country and Hizbullah is not being directed by an Iran-puppet Nasrallah, but by Lebanon government, wich represents all Lebanese people. From Shiite to Christ. And decisions are made out of majority consensus in the parliament which has controll over the army.

 

[Annie]

The difference between mixing and integrateng is that when you integrate Hizubullah into Official Lebanese army, there will be no private Army by Nasrallah or somebody else beside the government. It is one army.

In a state, power-mechanism is shared by different state-organizations.
So when Hizbullah wants then the army act against Israel it needs the majority in the democracy. To make its demands convert into practice.
Otherwise it is the minority demanding things.

The actual situation is, that a minority is shapeing Lebanon's fate by a private force.
So which way to go?

And to Kathianne:
It is not my regional view or sympathy with anyone or something else.
It is all about Lebanon, so we have to respect the views of the Lbanese people.
And Lebanese officials told to Turkish foreign minister when he was touring the region, that Hizbullah will not be disarmed and that Hizbullah is part of Lebanon.

Also the citizens of Lebann have sympathies with Hezbullah.
So the best is, to ensure, that Lebanon government gets full controll of Hizbullah. So that there isn't 2 different forces in one country.

No Canavar, it is not all of Lebanese. Read beyond the propaganda.

 

[onedomino]

I think Canavar represents the region well, with both his biases and perspectives, not a bad thing to read. We too have our, (not ARE), biases and perspectives, it's natural and interesting to see the chasm, to say the least.

I would not describe Canavar's opinion about integrating terrorists into security organizations and threats against Australians as "interesting." Rather, I take them as bellicose and pathological, no matter how representative of Turkey they may be. I think that Canavar's opinions represent the region "well" only in as much as they reflect the common Islamic hatred for Israel. They are, in fact, hideous and frightening opinions.

 

[Annie]

I would not describe Canavar's opinion about integrating terrorists into security organizations and threats against Australians as "interesting." Rather, I take them as bellicose and pathological, no matter how representative of Turkey they may be. I think that Canavar's opinions represent the region "well" only in as much as they reflect the common Islamic hatred for Israel. They are, in fact, hideous and frightening opinions.

I agree with all the above, which is why I wrote what I wrote.