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Should Western Ukraine become a NATO protectorate?

ESay

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Like I said, if Ukraine chooses to freeze the war at the current lines, the West washes their hands and says "mission accomplished".

The end. There is nothing after that. Putin wins. Ukraine would be seen as a liability, no point confronting Russia if Ukraine's heart isn't in it.

If that's what the Ukrainian people want, that's what they should do. Zelensky won't get any pushback from the west. Ukraine can cut her deal with Putin, no need for our further involvement.

We didn't step up until Ukrainians showed they were serious about fighting for their country. If you decide the fight is no longer worth the cost, well- it's not worth it to us either.
If that is why you support Ukraine, then yes it would be better if you demand from your representatives to halt support for Ukraine. Ukraine fights for its independence from Russian autocratic regimes that won't cease to exist after Putin is gone. It isn't doing so to please some American public that view this war as some kind of cool blockbuster.

Who could have thought back in February or March that Ukraine would last through October and would be able to do major counter-offensives? You know many of such people? But Ukraine has its own limits, whether you want to admit that or not.

I am too tired to repeat that this war isn't about Ukraine. It is about security architecture of all of Europe. Why do you think the Poles and Balts are so eager in supporting Ukraine? If it is a liability for you, then give it up.
 

para bellum

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I am too tired to repeat that this war isn't about Ukraine. It is about security architecture of all of Europe. Why do you think the Poles and Balts are so eager in supporting Ukraine? If it is a liability for you, then give it up
Pretty snotty response to someone who has continuously advocated for more help for your country from the start. Thanks for the lecture.

NATO will defend Poland and the Balts. They are not at risk. Your idea of a regional military alliance to counter Russia might sound attractive to you, but it is not something NATO would get behind. Western European leaders would see it as being in conflict with a unified NATO.
 

AZrailwhale

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Not if Mexicans were the victims of a criminal coup placing Kremlin puppets in power in Mexico City just as the US sponsored and condoned the 2014 far-right plot in Kiev implemented primarily by neo-Nazi shock troops like Right Sector and Svoboda Party.

That installation of a puppet regime on Russian borders has led directly to the ongoing civil war in eastern Ukraine, responsible for claiming the lives of tens of thousands and displacing millions of Ukrainians not to mention increasing the net worth of American$ who profit from U$ terrori$m.
ZB1.jpg

The Grand Chessboard - Wikipedia

Do you believe in American Primacy?
If so, how many more innocent human beings are you willing to maim, murder, and displace to achieve it?
The problem for you is there was no coup in Ukraine. The president tried to essentially surrender Ukrainian sovreignity to Russia, and when the legislature decided to vote “no confidence” the first step in removing him and having new elections, he and his supporters fled to Russia before the vote could be taken. He abandoned his office, so new elections were held and the new, freely elected, government was pro western and anti-Russian. That’s when Putin started making first sub-Rosa, then real war against Ukraine.
 

ESay

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Pretty snotty response to someone who has continuously advocated for more help for your country from the start. Thanks for the lecture.

NATO will defend Poland and the Balts. They are not at risk. Your idea of a regional military alliance to counter Russia might sound attractive to you, but it is not something NATO would get behind. Western European leaders would see it as being in conflict with a unified NATO.
My idea of a regional military alliance is not attractive for me. What is attractive is a full membership in the EU and NATO. But I understand that it is quite a long shot.
 

georgephillip

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Again, you make the mistake of thinking Russia is a superpower on a par with the US; it is not. Russia is just a central Asian petrostate with nukes and no one in Mexico or elsewhere, not even criminals, would tolerate the Russian boot on their throats.
Why aren't you equally concerned with the American boot on Ukrainian necks? The only reason this war is happening stems from US support for an illegal coup in 2014 that was led by neo-Nazis and other far-right goose-steppers.

Starting with the framing of the Monroe Doctrine in 1823, the US has asserted security claims over virtually the entire Western hemisphere. Any foreign power that places military forces near US territory know it is crossing a red line.

The exact same red line the US crossed in Ukraine that is now getting thousands of Ukrainians killed and millions displaced in pursuit of regime change in Moscow.
 
OP
Richard-H

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Jesus you want to kill us all. What is the matter with you. Your belief about the reason for the war is different to the information I have been given. You want to destroy Russia. Russia has the most nuclear weapons in the world but from what we have seen has not been looking after its conventional ones, presumably not expecting to go to war. You want to escalate by bringing in American Troops. You are fighting against a people who are determined you will not win. You bring in the US army and we are all gone.

Apparently. everything you been told is wrong. You get your information from the Russian government only. I get my information from independent news sources.

Nobody wants to destroy Russia - or even wants a war with Russia. All we want from Russia is for their government to act like a responsible government - stop attacking other countries, stop murdering political opponents, stop murdering news reporters. Act like a civilized country. Putin is a thug.

It's Russia that started this war by invading another country. Putin wants to reconquer every country that was in the Warsaw pact - but NONE of those countries want Russia back.

It's Putin that has threatened to use nuclear weapons. We will not be intimidated.

If the Russians were not expecting to go to war, then why did they start the war? Bringing American troops into Ukraine is absolutely justified if the Ukrainians ask them.

It's the Ukrainians that are determined that YOU will not win - and they've been proving it since last February.
 
OP
Richard-H

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By what authority would a political and military alliance redraw the borders of a sovereign state?

With the consent of the Ukrainian government. Besides making Ukraine a protectorate is not redrawing it's borders. The borders of Ukraine would remain as they were before 2014.
 
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Richard-H

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The 101st isn’t an Airborne unit and hadn’t been since Vietnam. It a Airmobile Division. No one in the division is actively jump qualified. It’s a helicopter Bourne division.
So?
 

toomuchtime_

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Why aren't you equally concerned with the American boot on Ukrainian necks? The only reason this war is happening stems from US support for an illegal coup in 2014 that was led by neo-Nazis and other far-right goose-steppers.

Starting with the framing of the Monroe Doctrine in 1823, the US has asserted security claims over virtually the entire Western hemisphere. Any foreign power that places military forces near US territory know it is crossing a red line.

The exact same red line the US crossed in Ukraine that is now getting thousands of Ukrainians killed and millions displaced in pursuit of regime change in Moscow.
This false narrative of how Yanukovych was removed from office by the Ukrainian parliament is just as stupid every time you repeat it.
 
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OP
Richard-H

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This false narrative of how Poroshenko was removed from office by the Ukrainian parliament is just as stupid every time you repeat it.

The Ukrainian people removed Yanukovych.

If Yanukovych had any substantial support there would have been a counter-coup.

There has been no country-wide attempt by Russian Ukrainians to reinstate Yanukovych, or to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

Only a couple of regions on the Russian border that were infiltrated by Russian mercenaries have fought against the Ukrainian government. The rest of the Russian Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

Putin should have been happy that no one was seriously challenging his annexation of Crimea. Now, before this is over, Crimea will return to Ukraine.

When will the Russian people realize that Putin is an idiot and a thug?
 
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toomuchtime_

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The Ukrainian people removed Yanukovych.

If Yanukovych had any substantial support there would have been a counter-coup.

There has been no country-wide attempt by Russian Ukrainians to reinstate Yanukovych, or to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

Only a couple of regions on the Russian border that were infiltrated by Russian mercenaries have fought against the Ukrainian government. The rest of the Russian Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

Putin should have been happy that no one was seriously challenging his annexation of Crimea. Now, before this is over, Crimea will return to Ukraine.

When will the Russian people realize that Putin is an idiot and a thug?
My bad, thanks.
 

georgephillip

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The problem for you is there was no coup in Ukraine. The president tried to essentially surrender Ukrainian sovreignity to Russia, and when the legislature decided to vote “no confidence” the first step in removing him and having new elections, he and his supporters fled to Russia before the vote could be taken. He abandoned his office, so new elections were held and the new, freely elected, government was pro western and anti-Russian. That’s when Putin started making first sub-Rosa, then real war against Ukraine.
The coup represented the temporary culmination of long-standing efforts (1949) by US capitalists to install a puppet regime on Russian borders. Yanukovych fled a violent mob which murdered police officers BEFORE the bought-and-paid for legislature issued its no confidence vote. That illegal coup prompted the outbreak of an ongoing civil war in Ukraine which is designed to bleed Russia enough to force regime change. Biden and his puppet Zelensky will be gone long before that happens.
 

AZrailwhale

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The coup represented the temporary culmination of long-standing efforts (1949) by US capitalists to install a puppet regime on Russian borders. Yanukovych fled a violent mob which murdered police officers BEFORE the bought-and-paid for legislature issued its no confidence vote. That illegal coup prompted the outbreak of an ongoing civil war in Ukraine which is designed to bleed Russia enough to force regime change. Biden and his puppet Zelensky will be gone long before that happens.
You're certifiably nuts.
 

georgephillip

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You're certifiably nuts.
The power struggle in Ukraine and America’s strategy for global supremacy

"In 1997, former US security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski published a book entitled The Grand Chessboard that attracted considerable attention and treated America’s strategy for global supremacy.

"By chessboard, Brzezinski meant Eurasia, the enormous land mass comprising two continents and containing the majority of the world’s population.

"According to the core thesis of the book, 'America’s capacity to exercise global primacy” depends on whether America can prevent 'the emergence of a dominant and antagonistic Eurasian power.'

"Brzezinski then concluded: 'Eurasia is thus the chessboard on which the struggle for global primacy continues to be played.'"

Explain why you believe America is entitled to maim, murder, and displace millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the planet in order to exercise global primacy.
 

georgephillip

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With the consent of the Ukrainian government. Besides making Ukraine a protectorate is not redrawing it's borders. The borders of Ukraine would remain as they were before 2014.
Previously you said: "...if NATO declared Western Ukraine as its protectorate there's nothing Russia could do about it".
Ukraine-Map.jpg

Now you claim "the borders of Ukraine would remain as they were before 2014"

Russia has already changed those borders with more changes still to come.
 

alexa

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Apparently. everything you been told is wrong. You get your information from the Russian government only. I get my information from independent news sources.


Lies. I am not responsible because you are someone who knows nothing but propaganda. If you believe that the only people writing about what happened are Russian, then clearly you know absolutely nothing except what you hear daily which requires no need to check up.

I suggest you read and learn and also go to some classes to learn the simplest politeness.

I didn't even tell you what I thought. I am not going to waste my time repeating it again for you so please read the below link and never again make comments on what I think when you do not even know what I think,
Nobody wants to destroy Russia - or even wants a war with Russia. All we want from Russia is for their government to act like a responsible government - stop attacking other countries, stop murdering political opponents, stop murdering news reporters. Act like a civilized country. Putin is a thug.

You want to have NATO Surrounding Russia in contravention to the agreements when the Warsaw Pact was ending and Russia gave its agreement for Germany to unify.

What countries has Russia been attacking. You have been attacking Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Central American countries, and have military in most countries in the world, As Carter said you are the most warlike country this world has ever known. Exactly who are you to speak about anyone else. In the Middle East alone your actions caused the deaths of around 4 million people. You are an amoral country.

Now you're trying to tell me that your country does not haver thugs in high places. Should the US be destroyed by the world if they do not like one of its leaders.


Richard H
It's Russia that started this war by invading another country.

No, you started this is the 90's and carried on and on as I say in the link below


Richard H
Putin wants to reconquer every country that was in the Warsaw pact - but NONE of those countries want Russia back.

Now I know you only pick up the cheapest propaganda.

Richard H
It's Putin that has threatened to use nuclear weapons.

That is disputed. Of course Russia does have more nuclear weapons than any other country in the world and could choose to use them. Many people for instance Jeffry Sachs believe that the US is playing with fire and we are nearer now to seeing nuclear weapons being used than we were with Cuba. Pushing a country into this position shows an inability for Diplomacy which the US has had since the turn of the century.

Richard H
We will not be intimidated.

Now I am beginning to feel a bit sorry for you realising how one dimensional your rhetoric is. This certainly is what your tabloids say. This is what scares the hell out of most of the world. Russia appears to say they will use nukes and the US responds, nah nah nah nah nah we don't care. You no longer have respect for nuclear bombs and because of that you have taken us to two seconds to midnight on them being used.


If the Russians were not expecting to go to war, then why did they start the war?

Well first you need to read this

or read Geroge Phillips posts

Russia didn't in their opinion start a 'war' then'. They are now preparing for a big war understanding you will not stop till you have that.
Bringing American troops into Ukraine is absolutely justified if the Ukrainians ask them.
Justified by whom. Bringing American troops in means you are in active not proxy war with Russia. Now you are starting the count down on the nuclear clock. You are determined that Russia surrender to you. Russia will not surrender. You are both nuclear powers. Your stupidity and lack of respect for nuclear bombs and desire to be the only 'big man' in the world ruling everyone has led you to stop respecting nuclear war and if you do not change your step soon that is where you are taking us.
It's the Ukrainians that are determined that YOU will not win - and they've been proving it since last February.
I am not going to waste my time replying to you again. Just Pathetic.
 
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gipper

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Lies. I am not responsible because you are someone who knows nothing but propaganda. If you believe that the only people writing about what happened are Russian, then clearly you know absolutely nothing except what you hear daily which requires no need to check up.

I suggest you read and learn and also go to some classes to learn the simplest politeness.

I didn't even tell you what I thought. I am not going to waste my time repeating it again for you so please read the below link and never again make comments on what I think when you do not even know what I think,


You want to have NATO Surrounding Russia in contravention to the agreements when the Warsaw Pact was ending and Russia gave its agreement for Germany to unify.

What countries has Russia been attacking. You have been attacking Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Central American countries, and have military in most countries in the world, As Carter said you are the most warlike country this world has ever known. Exactly who are you to speak about anyone else. In the Middle East alone your actions caused the deaths of around 4 million people. You are an amoral country.

Now you're trying to tell me that your country does not haver thugs in high places. Should the US be destroyed by the world if they do not like one of its leaders.


Richard H


No, you started this is the 90's and carried on and on as I say in the link below


Richard H


Now I know you only pick up the cheapest propaganda.

Richard H


That is disputed. Of course Russia does have more nuclear weapons than any other country in the world and could choose to use them. Many people for instance Jeffry Sachs believe that the US is playing with fire and we are nearer now to seeing nuclear weapons being used than we were with Cuba. Pushing a country into this position shows an inability for Diplomacy which the US has had since the turn of the century.

Richard H


Now I am beginning to feel a bit sorry for you realising how one dimensional your rhetoric is. This certainly is what your tabloids say. This is what scares the hell out of most of the world. Russia appears to say they will use nukes and the US responds, nah nah nah nah nah we don't care. You no longer have respect for nuclear bombs and because of that you have taken us to two seconds to midnight on them being used.




Well first you need to read this

or read Geroge Phillips posts

Russia didn't in their opinion start a 'war' then'. They are now preparing for a big war understanding you will not stop till you have that.

Justified by whom. Bringing American troops in means you are in active not proxy war with Russia. Now you are starting the count down on the nuclear clock. You are determined that Russia surrender to you. Russia will not surrender. You are both nuclear powers. Your stupidity and lack of respect for nuclear bombs and desire to be the only 'big man' in the world ruling everyone has led you to stop respecting nuclear war and if you do not change your step soon that is where you are taking us.

I am not going to waste my time replying to you again. Just Pathetic.
Outstanding post. Thank you.

Close thread.
 

gipper

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The power struggle in Ukraine and America’s strategy for global supremacy

"In 1997, former US security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski published a book entitled The Grand Chessboard that attracted considerable attention and treated America’s strategy for global supremacy.

"By chessboard, Brzezinski meant Eurasia, the enormous land mass comprising two continents and containing the majority of the world’s population.

"According to the core thesis of the book, 'America’s capacity to exercise global primacy” depends on whether America can prevent 'the emergence of a dominant and antagonistic Eurasian power.'

"Brzezinski then concluded: 'Eurasia is thus the chessboard on which the struggle for global primacy continues to be played.'"

Explain why you believe America is entitled to maim, murder, and displace millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the planet in order to exercise global primacy.
The problem is he doesn’t know the USG has maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of innocent civilians. He’s stuck in third grade government school, believing the USG never does anything wrong.

Unfortunately, there are way too many dumb Americans just like him.

He wants Putin executed for war crimes, but also thinks W and O did nothing wrong. How can we ever find common ground with such unadulterated IGNORANCE?
 

gipper

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The Ukrainian people removed Yanukovych.

If Yanukovych had any substantial support there would have been a counter-coup.

There has been no country-wide attempt by Russian Ukrainians to reinstate Yanukovych, or to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

Only a couple of regions on the Russian border that were infiltrated by Russian mercenaries have fought against the Ukrainian government. The rest of the Russian Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

Putin should have been happy that no one was seriously challenging his annexation of Crimea. Now, before this is over, Crimea will return to Ukraine.

When will the Russian people realize that Putin is an idiot and a thug?
Crimea was part of Russia for centuries. You hate Soviet Russia but guess what dummy, the Soviets gave Crimea to Ukraine by dictator dictate.

GET INFORMED. DON’T BE DUMB FOR LIFE.
 

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