Should Western Ukraine become a NATO protectorate?

[gipper]

The Korea scenario is an answer, silly boy.

And when Russia ignores your no-fly zone, are you prepared for WWIII?

 

[alexa]

A protectorate is a bad idea. It would bring NATO straight into the war, plus it would split up Ukraine.

Why be afraid of the Belorussian Army? At least half of them would be on the side of Ukraine.

very true. The reason he gave for not coming in at the beginning, which seemed to be what was intended was that he was scared what his people would do, they were so against it.

 

[ESay]

And when Russia ignores your no-fly zone, are you prepared for WWIII?

Russian military planes don't fly over Ukraine, the only exception is the front line where the Russians use mainly Su-25s and helicopters.

The no-fly zone will mean defence against Russian missiles.

 

[alexa]

Russian military planes don't fly over Ukraine, the only exception is the front line where the Russians use mainly Su-25s and helicopters.

The no-fly zone will mean defence against Russian missiles.

Russia has 300 aircraft in the vicinity. The reason why they have not yet been used is known by Russia.

Ukraine war: why Nato is refusing to enforce a no-fly zone

Nato fears that an attempt to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine would inevitably escalate into war with Russia.

theconversation.com

 

[ESay]

Russia has 300 aircraft in the vicinity. The reason why they have not yet been used is known by Russia.

Ukraine war: why Nato is refusing to enforce a no-fly zone

Nato fears that an attempt to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine would inevitably escalate into war with Russia.

theconversation.com

The article from March 3? Are you serious?

 

[para bellum]

Russia has 300 aircraft in the vicinity. The reason why they have not yet been used is known by Russia.

About 1/4 of those have been shot down.

One main reason they can't use them is they are not able to deconflict. They can't tell the difference between their own planes and the Ukrainian planes. Meaning there is a good chance they will shoot down their own planes, which they have done on several occasions.

A no-fly zone wasn't called for back in March, but things change. Russia is getting large numbers of Iranian drones and ballistic missiles to to target the civilian population.

 

[para bellum]

The Korea scenario is an answer, silly boy.

There are better ones ESay.

 

[xyz]

Russian military planes don't fly over Ukraine, the only exception is the front line where the Russians use mainly Su-25s and helicopters.

The no-fly zone will mean defence against Russian missiles.

I read in some article that they are ready to use some MIG-29s instead.

The reason could be they are afraid to lose more Sukhoys, but it also could be that the SU-25s have some problems.

F-35s also seem to have some problems, perhaps because of the complexity of more modern aircraft. Not saying that they're not capable aircraft.

 

[ESay]

There are better ones ESay.

Maybe. The time will show.

 

[ESay]

I read in some article that they are ready to use some MIG-29s instead.

The reason could be they are afraid to lose more Sukhoys, but it also could be that the SU-25s have some problems.

F-35s also seem to have some problems, perhaps because of the complexity of more modern aircraft. Not saying that they're not capable aircraft.

Su-25 is an analogue of American A-10s in the terms of an operational use. I doubt MIG-29 can replace them as a tactical jet for supporting ground forces on the battlefield.

Though, in 2014 Ukrainian army used MIGs in this role. The assault of Donetsk airport is an example.

 

[gipper]

Russian military planes don't fly over Ukraine, the only exception is the front line where the Russians use mainly Su-25s and helicopters.

The no-fly zone will mean defence against Russian missiles.

You really want to prolong this war until all Ukrainians are dead and their nation destroyed, but you can’t think that far ahead.

 

[ESay]

You really want to prolong this war until all Ukrainians are dead and their nation destroyed, but you can’t think that far ahead.

Idiot. I have been saying since May that after retaking Kharkiv oblast and the west bank of Kherson oblast Ukraine should stop and follow defence strategy.

 

[georgephillip]

Since Russia is sending a new army into Belarus to threaten Western Ukraine from the North, I think that NATO should declare all of Ukraine west of the Dnieper river to be a NATO protectorate

Scott Ritter has spoken about a similar strategy.

In his version thousands of Polish troops don Ukrainian uniforms and enter the conflict. Once a stalemate ensues, the Poles change back into their true colors and occupy western Ukraine.

How would you expect Putin to react in such a situation?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/05/russia-nuclear-weapons-military-arsenal/

 

[alexa]

About 1/4 of those have been shot down.

One main reason they can't use them is they are not able to deconflict. They can't tell the difference between their own planes and the Ukrainian planes. Meaning there is a good chance they will shoot down their own planes, which they have done on several occasions.

A no-fly zone wasn't called for back in March, but things change. Russia is getting large numbers of Iranian drones and ballistic missiles to to target the civilian population.

Oh it was again and again and again but it was not found to be acceptable as it would involve NATO people..

 

[georgephillip]

Diplomatic processes were fully engaged until Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine.

Putin's idea if diplomacy is that he makes his demands and expects immediate full compliance. That's not diplomacy.

Why did Ukraine fail to implement the Minsk agreements? Poroshenko has been quoted as saying they were never intended to accomplish anything except buy time for Ukraine and NATO to retake control of Donbass and Crimea; thereby, furthering the US goal of regime change in Moscow.

 

[para bellum]

Oh it was again and again and again but it was not found to be acceptable as it would involve NATO people..

By "not called for" I mean not appropriate at the time. Yes, I know Ukraine was asking for one, and there were people in the west that supported it back then.

It was not appropriate in March because no one in NATO expected Ukraine to beat back the Russian army. They thought the war would be over before NATO could even agree on what a no-fly zone would look like. The Russian war crimes in places like Hostomel and Bucha were unknown.

In the 8 months since, the scale of Russia's attacks on the civilian population is so far off the charts, a no-fly zone to protect the civilian population is something that should be seriously debated at NATO.

 

[skye]

No way!

Enough of protectorates and colonies and shit! this is not the 18th century anymore!

Should Western Ukraine become a NATO protectorate?​

 

[gipper]

I

Idiot. I have been saying since May that after retaking Kharkiv oblast and the west bank of Kherson oblast Ukraine should stop and follow defence strategy.

Idiot! That means nothing. You still want them to fight and refuse peace negotiations.

 

[para bellum]

Idiot. I have been saying since May that after retaking Kharkiv oblast and the west bank of Kherson oblast Ukraine should stop and follow defence strategy.

It would be a win for Putin to freeze the war on those lines.

It leaves Ukraine a rump state, virtually landlocked and dependent on Russia's largesse. Your industrial heartland would be lost and you are left with one seaport for your imports and exports that is always under threat.

The West will quickly tire of supporting a Ukraine that does not have a viable chance to support itself, and NATO will not be very interested in a Ukraine that does not have a Black Sea presence.

Ukraine has received a lot of support because Ukrainians have demonstrated an unbreakable will to fight and die for their country. You can freeze the war in place, Putin will take that deal in a heartbeat. The West will view it as "problem solved", and Ukraine will be forgotten.

 

[ESay]

It would be a win for Putin to freeze the war on those lines.

It leaves Ukraine a rump state, virtually landlocked and dependent on Russia's largesse. Your industrial heartland would be lost and you are left with one seaport for your imports and exports that is always under threat.

The West will quickly tire of supporting a Ukraine that does not have a viable chance to support itself, and NATO will not be very interested in a Ukraine that does not have a Black Sea presence.

Ukraine has received a lot of support because Ukrainians have demonstrated an unbreakable will to fight and die for their country. You can freeze the war in place, Putin will take that deal in a heartbeat. The West will view it as "problem solved", and Ukraine will be forgotten.

Yes, I have heard that reasoning. I have my own arguments.

About the industrial heartland. If by this you mean the Donbas region with its steel plants and coal mines, then yes it will be lost. But the industry there was mainly built in the 1920-30s, and for the last 30 years was owned by a group of oligarchs who were getting their fortune offering almost nothing in return in the terms of modernisation of the industry. Except of that, a significant part of Donetsk oblast was already excluded from Ukrainian economic life and Ukraine managed to cope with that. Overall, I think that Ukraine should follow Poland's example where a major shift happened from a Soviet era industrial giants to modern production.

About sea ports. Not one sea port. Odesa oblast has three main seaports that are the biggest in Ukraine in the terms of capacity - the ports of Odesa, Chernomorsk and Yuzhniy. Maybe after some time the port of Mykolaiv will be reopened. Some practical strategy should be set to defend these ports and routes from Russian attacks and provocations.

About tiredness of supporting Ukraine. I am afraid this tiredness is already growing even with Ukrainian successes on the frontline. What will be if Ukraine suffers a major defeat? This war affects not only Ukraine. Global energy supplies, military stockpiles, global food security. We should allow the system to balance itself.