Should President Obama Suspend Military Aide to Israel?

[Mustang]

Hamas is the aggressor and terrorist group. Stop funding them.

You don't think the Palestinian civilians are being terrorized by widespread Israeli military assaults on their homes, schools, and markets?

You look completely foolish.

Tell the Palestinians to out Hamas, point out the stashes, the people everything.

That ends your problem.

Hamas is a murderous evil organization.

You don't know much about human psychology, do you?

Virtually anyone (of any nationality) who gave up his or her fellow countrymen (neighbors and protectors essentially) to an outside military force that's engaged in killing innocent women and children would find themselves labeled as traitors to their own people, regardless of their motives.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

The federal government has provided much more money to NYC at various time. Over $20B actually.
U.S. GAO - Disaster Assistance: Information on FEMA's Post 9/11 Public Assistance to the New York City Area

Now, how is that relevant at all? It isn't. Another red herring.

How is disaster assistance that was needed for a disaster relevant?

I know I'd be awfully happy if just the whole state of California could get $3 billion in federal assistance every year.

The state's university system gets that much every year, much less the ret of the state.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/u...back-in-federal-cuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

You're not doing very well here, are you? Maybe you should cut your losses and STFU.

I am sure most people would agree $3 billion is a very significant amount of money for a country of 8 million to get every year.

 

[The Rabbi]

How is disaster assistance that was needed for a disaster relevant?

I know I'd be awfully happy if just the whole state of California could get $3 billion in federal assistance every year.

The state's university system gets that much every year, much less the ret of the state.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/u...back-in-federal-cuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

You're not doing very well here, are you? Maybe you should cut your losses and STFU.

I am sure most people would agree $3 billion is a very significant amount of money for a country of 8 million to get every year.

Deflection noted.
You've gotten your ass nicely spanked here. It doesnt matter what most people would agree. Most people agreed Obama was the best candidate for president. Most people agree Dancing with Stars is more important than foreign policy. It is a fallacy.
Rabbi Rules!

 

[The Rabbi]

You don't think the Palestinian civilians are being terrorized by widespread Israeli military assaults on their homes, schools, and markets?

You look completely foolish.

Tell the Palestinians to out Hamas, point out the stashes, the people everything.

That ends your problem.

Hamas is a murderous evil organization.

You don't know much about human psychology, do you?

Virtually anyone (of any nationality) who gave up his or her fellow countrymen (neighbors and protectors essentially) to an outside military force that's engaged in killing innocent women and children would find themselves labeled as traitors to their own people, regardless of their motives.

You mean like the French Resistance?
Oops.

 

[Mustang]

You look completely foolish.

Tell the Palestinians to out Hamas, point out the stashes, the people everything.

That ends your problem.

Hamas is a murderous evil organization.

You don't know much about human psychology, do you?

Virtually anyone (of any nationality) who gave up his or her fellow countrymen (neighbors and protectors essentially) to an outside military force that's engaged in killing innocent women and children would find themselves labeled as traitors to their own people, regardless of their motives.

You mean like the French Resistance?
Oops.

I mean like Vichy France.

Edit to add: Oops on you!

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

The state's university system gets that much every year, much less the ret of the state.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/u...back-in-federal-cuts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

You're not doing very well here, are you? Maybe you should cut your losses and STFU.

I am sure most people would agree $3 billion is a very significant amount of money for a country of 8 million to get every year.

Deflection noted.
You've gotten your ass nicely spanked here. It doesnt matter what most people would agree. Most people agreed Obama was the best candidate for president. Most people agree Dancing with Stars is more important than foreign policy. It is a fallacy.
Rabbi Rules!

You have ignored the question of why Israel with a booming economy needs to get all that money. Why?

Israel's booming economy puts billions in US aid under spotlight - World News

 

[georgephillip]

PR fiasco? Are you kidding? Here's the reality of what Israel faces, Mustang. They are completely surrounded by enemies who have repeatedly attacked them since the 1940's...enemies who have made it quite clear that their intention is to wipe out both the Jewish State and the Jews who live in it if they succeed!

With the current conflict you've got Hamas...a group that is deemed to be a terrorist organization by the US government firing THOUSANDS of rockets from Gaza into Israel and digging dozens of tunnels beneath the wall that Israel constructed to keep out terrorists so that they can attack and kill any and all Israelis...be they military or civilians...men, women or children! What justification could you POSSIBLY have for those tunnels? They have one purpose and one purpose only...to get inside Israel so that they can kill Israelis! What's pathetic is that US tax dollars are supporting the Palestinians while they allow this to take place.

Sounds like it might be a good time for Israel to lift its illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza before the world decides to stop doing business with Jews who want all the land between the River and the sea for themselves?

Actually, it's time to drop the politically correct bullshit and send them all to heaven. Any child above the age of 2 has already been brainwashed.

As you prove with every post.
You're alleging Jews aren't sufficiently adept at killing children, are you?

 

[The Rabbi]

I am sure most people would agree $3 billion is a very significant amount of money for a country of 8 million to get every year.

Deflection noted.
You've gotten your ass nicely spanked here. It doesnt matter what most people would agree. Most people agreed Obama was the best candidate for president. Most people agree Dancing with Stars is more important than foreign policy. It is a fallacy.
Rabbi Rules!

You have ignored the question of why Israel with a booming economy needs to get all that money. Why?

Israel's booming economy puts billions in US aid under spotlight - World News

You never asked that question.
Spank number, what is it now?

So first you tried to say it was making Israel rich. I pointed out Israel's GDP far dwarfed the $3B given.
Then you tried to ask whether that wouldnt be a lot for NYC, which has a similar population. I pointed out the Feds spent more on NYC than they do on Israel
Then you tried to claim that it would be nice if CA received that much. I pointed out that CA's university system alone receives more than that, much less the rest of the state.
Then you tried to appeal to popularity to say wouldnt most people agree that was lot of money. I pointed out the fallacy of popular appeals
Now you are trying to say I avoided a question you never asked.
So that's 5 points you have tried to make and failed miserably on every single one.


The answer to your current question is Israel has large security needs given their situation as the only democracy in the Middle East and a trusted US ally. The US has a historic relationship with Israel and the benefits flow both ways. US military contractors get big Israeli contracts, paid for by US taxpayers, thus helping make the US rich, or at least the contractors. Many of whom are located in California. Thus your argument totally backfires on you: California might be one of the biggest beneficiaries of US aid to Israel. And that is probably why the number is so big.

No go and hang yourself somewhere.

 

[Slyhunter]

I am sure most people would agree $3 billion is a very significant amount of money for a country of 8 million to get every year.

Deflection noted.
You've gotten your ass nicely spanked here. It doesnt matter what most people would agree. Most people agreed Obama was the best candidate for president. Most people agree Dancing with Stars is more important than foreign policy. It is a fallacy.
Rabbi Rules!

You have ignored the question of why Israel with a booming economy needs to get all that money. Why?

Israel's booming economy puts billions in US aid under spotlight - World News

We need to stop paying people to like us. All people, including the Jews.

 

[georgephillip]

PR fiasco? Are you kidding? Here's the reality of what Israel faces, Mustang. They are completely surrounded by enemies who have repeatedly attacked them since the 1940's...enemies who have made it quite clear that their intention is to wipe out both the Jewish State and the Jews who live in it if they succeed!

With the current conflict you've got Hamas...a group that is deemed to be a terrorist organization by the US government firing THOUSANDS of rockets from Gaza into Israel and digging dozens of tunnels beneath the wall that Israel constructed to keep out terrorists so that they can attack and kill any and all Israelis...be they military or civilians...men, women or children! What justification could you POSSIBLY have for those tunnels? They have one purpose and one purpose only...to get inside Israel so that they can kill Israelis! What's pathetic is that US tax dollars are supporting the Palestinians while they allow this to take place.

Sounds like it might be a good time for Israel to lift its illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza before the world decides to stop doing business with Jews who want all the land between the River and the sea for themselves?

Actually it's a good time to break out the napalm. Leave no man standing.

Don't forget the little men (and women)

"If the strike on this school was the result of Israeli artillery fire it would constitute an indiscriminate attack and a likely war crime. Artillery should never be used against targets in crowded civilian areas and its use in such a manner would never be considered a ‘surgical’ strike"

Israel/Gaza: Attack on UN school in Gaza a potential war crime that must be investigated | Amnesty International

 

[The Rabbi]

Deflection noted.
You've gotten your ass nicely spanked here. It doesnt matter what most people would agree. Most people agreed Obama was the best candidate for president. Most people agree Dancing with Stars is more important than foreign policy. It is a fallacy.
Rabbi Rules!

You have ignored the question of why Israel with a booming economy needs to get all that money. Why?

Israel's booming economy puts billions in US aid under spotlight - World News

We need to stop paying people to like us. All people, including the Jews.

OK, thats a reasonable position. I think it's wrong, but not unreasonable.
We dont pay people to like us. We pay people to gain influence over them. We also pay them to help achieve US interests, like defeating terrorism, or the USSR, or containing China. All worthy goals.

 

[Peach]

I am sure most people would agree $3 billion is a very significant amount of money for a country of 8 million to get every year.

Deflection noted.
You've gotten your ass nicely spanked here. It doesnt matter what most people would agree. Most people agreed Obama was the best candidate for president. Most people agree Dancing with Stars is more important than foreign policy. It is a fallacy.
Rabbi Rules!

You have ignored the question of why Israel with a booming economy needs to get all that money. Why?

Israel's booming economy puts billions in US aid under spotlight - World News

There is a part of "government" known as "foreign policy". The country you live in has a "foreign policy", it includes having other countries we call "allies". We spend money to get information, and stake out our ground. Now, about that 2 trillion fisaco that began in 2003, the US deserves refunds, but those we wasted money on are foreign DEFENSE CONTRACTORS. They made $$$$$$$$, off of US & Iraq, plus allies/former allies' blood.

 

[georgephillip]

PR fiasco? Are you kidding? Here's the reality of what Israel faces, Mustang. They are completely surrounded by enemies who have repeatedly attacked them since the 1940's...enemies who have made it quite clear that their intention is to wipe out both the Jewish State and the Jews who live in it if they succeed!

With the current conflict you've got Hamas...a group that is deemed to be a terrorist organization by the US government firing THOUSANDS of rockets from Gaza into Israel and digging dozens of tunnels beneath the wall that Israel constructed to keep out terrorists so that they can attack and kill any and all Israelis...be they military or civilians...men, women or children! What justification could you POSSIBLY have for those tunnels? They have one purpose and one purpose only...to get inside Israel so that they can kill Israelis! What's pathetic is that US tax dollars are supporting the Palestinians while they allow this to take place.

Sounds like it might be a good time for Israel to lift its illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza before the world decides to stop doing business with Jews who want all the land between the River and the sea for themselves?

The only reason that Israel is even in those territories is that they were taken in wars that took place when their Arab neighbors attacked them. Generally speaking when you attack someone and subsequently lose the war that YOU started it's considered bad form to piss and moan about lands you lost during the conflict. Israel COULD be living peacefully behind the pre 1967 borders if it's Arab neighbors hadn't decided to attack them.

Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 when it launched an unprovoked airstrike on Egypt. The UN immediately called for Israel to leave the occupied territories in accordance with international law. Today there are half-a-million kosher squatters on the West Bank, and Jews remain in effective control of Gaza. Israel wants all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for Jews ONLY and that's the only problem.

 

[The Rabbi]

Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 when it launched an unprovoked airstrike on Egypt. The UN immediately called for Israel to leave the occupied territories in accordance with international law. Today there are half-a-million kosher squatters on the West Bank, and Jews remain in effective control of Gaza. Israel wants all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for Jews ONLY and that's the only problem.

It was hardly unprovoked. Egypt was preparing to strike.
What difference does it make how many Israeli citizens live in Israel or any part of it?
If Israel wanted Gaza, it could have just stayed. They actually withdrew from Gaza, a fact you fail to grasp.

 

[georgephillip]

Here's a few stats in case anyone cares.

51 people responded to the poll. Out of those numbers, 12 people self-identified as liberal, 15 self-identified as moderate, and 22 self-identified as conservative.

58.3% of liberals voted yes.
41.7% voted no.

20% of moderates voted yes.
80% voted no.

27.3% of conservatives voted yes.
72.7% voted no.

2 people chose Don't know/unsure

Edit to add: Since there's about 50 respondents, the easiest way to figure the overall percentage of votes is to just add the numbers and double them to reach a percentage.

About 1/3 voted yes
About 2/3 voted no

One might wonder how the liberal numbers would change if a Republican occupied the White House?

 

[The Rabbi]

Here's a few stats in case anyone cares.

51 people responded to the poll. Out of those numbers, 12 people self-identified as liberal, 15 self-identified as moderate, and 22 self-identified as conservative.

58.3% of liberals voted yes.
41.7% voted no.

20% of moderates voted yes.
80% voted no.

27.3% of conservatives voted yes.
72.7% voted no.

2 people chose Don't know/unsure

Edit to add: Since there's about 50 respondents, the easiest way to figure the overall percentage of votes is to just add the numbers and double them to reach a percentage.

About 1/3 voted yes
About 2/3 voted no

One might wonder how the liberal numbers would change if a Republican occupied the White House?

Support for Israel was strong under BUsh.
Next.

 

[georgephillip]

Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 when it launched an unprovoked airstrike on Egypt. The UN immediately called for Israel to leave the occupied territories in accordance with international law. Today there are half-a-million kosher squatters on the West Bank, and Jews remain in effective control of Gaza. Israel wants all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for Jews ONLY and that's the only problem.

It was hardly unprovoked. Egypt was preparing to strike.
What difference does it make how many Israeli citizens live in Israel or any part of it?
If Israel wanted Gaza, it could have just stayed. They actually withdrew from Gaza, a fact you fail to grasp.

Egypt was not preparing to strike.
Jews stole the rest of Palestine they were prevented from grabbing in '48.
Israel withdrew its troops and squatters from Gaza and remains in control of all borders, airspace, coastal waters. electromagnetic sphere, and population registry.
Why do they prohibit exports from Gaza if not for collective punishment purposes?

 

[Contumacious]

AmericanFirst, AvgGuyIA, bendog, deltex1, Dreadnaught1968, eagle7_31, longknife, Mojo2, NLT, OKTexas, OriginalShroom, RetiredGySgt, Rozman, The Rabbi

None of these people are fiscal conservatives, if any claim to be so, feel free to call them liars, since this vote makes it clear that they would be lying.

How is fiscal conservatism even relevant here? You undertstand Israeli aid from the US amounts to about $2B a year, right? That's enough to run the government here for about 2 days. It is a rounding error in the budget.

No, I suspect the aid issue is just a cover for deeper feelings of hostility towards Israel. In fact I am almost sure of it.

CONservatives oppose welfarism ONLY when the money goes to an entity other than the Jewish State.

.

 

[Oldstyle]

Sounds like it might be a good time for Israel to lift its illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza before the world decides to stop doing business with Jews who want all the land between the River and the sea for themselves?

The only reason that Israel is even in those territories is that they were taken in wars that took place when their Arab neighbors attacked them. Generally speaking when you attack someone and subsequently lose the war that YOU started it's considered bad form to piss and moan about lands you lost during the conflict. Israel COULD be living peacefully behind the pre 1967 borders if it's Arab neighbors hadn't decided to attack them.

Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 when it launched an unprovoked airstrike on Egypt. The UN immediately called for Israel to leave the occupied territories in accordance with international law. Today there are half-a-million kosher squatters on the West Bank, and Jews remain in effective control of Gaza. Israel wants all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for Jews ONLY and that's the only problem.

Unprovoked? Israel was responding to Egypt's closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and massing of Egyptian, Jordanian and Iraqi troops on it's borders. Egypt had ordered the UN peacekeeping force in the Sinai to leave. Hardly unprovoked...

 

[georgephillip]

The only reason that Israel is even in those territories is that they were taken in wars that took place when their Arab neighbors attacked them. Generally speaking when you attack someone and subsequently lose the war that YOU started it's considered bad form to piss and moan about lands you lost during the conflict. Israel COULD be living peacefully behind the pre 1967 borders if it's Arab neighbors hadn't decided to attack them.

Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 when it launched an unprovoked airstrike on Egypt. The UN immediately called for Israel to leave the occupied territories in accordance with international law. Today there are half-a-million kosher squatters on the West Bank, and Jews remain in effective control of Gaza. Israel wants all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for Jews ONLY and that's the only problem.

Unprovoked? Israel was responding to Egypt's closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and massing of Egyptian, Jordanian and Iraqi troops on it's borders. Egypt had ordered the UN peacekeeping force in the Sinai to leave. Hardly unprovoked...

Israel struck first in a conflict they won in six days.
Those Arab troops were massing to prevent another al-Nakba, and Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran because it remembered Israeli aggression in the Suez during '56. Zionists have never hidden their intention to rule all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river, and some of them want a Greater Israel that reaches from the Nile to the Euphrates. It may sound comical in this country, but there were few Arabs laughing at the prospect 47 years ago.