Should Israel have been created?

[irosie91]

So all of above including Israel are liars. How about the 138 countries that recently voted to recognize the already existing Palestine. Palestine is more qualified to be a state than Israel.

I guess Tinnie, with roots in the area, would say a thing like that. After all, he doesn't recognize that Israel actually exists.

The real question is who has the right to have a state inside Palestine's international borders?

Is it the Palestinians who are native to the terrritory?

Or is it the foreigners from Europe?

The people who lived in the British empire had a right to separate from the British empire and form countries -----the jews of palestine did just that Jews have lived in Palestine
for more then 3500 years-----and have also lived in neighboring lands which were invaded
by the dogs of arabia ---and were there subjected to genocide ----the remnant formed
the country which is, TODAY, Israel Of course that remnant has the right to full
compensation for the oppression and genocide inflicted upon them first by the "holy
roman empire" and later the filth and dogs from arabia. Islamo nazi pigs
like to pretend that MOST of the jews who migrated to paletine when the
OTTOMANS mitigated the filth and stench and oppression of racist
laws which deprived jews of their WORLD RECOGNIZED "holy" HOMELAND---
as being 'from europe' In fact most were not---many were far more "indigenous''
than the spawn of the ROMAN EMPIRE brutal invaders and the later brutal
invaders from arabia ---others were escapees from lands that they inhabited
but which has ALSO been invaded by the brutal oppressive spawn of
the "holy roman empire" ----and the dogs of arabia

 

[P F Tinmore]

I guess Tinnie, with roots in the area, would say a thing like that. After all, he doesn't recognize that Israel actually exists.

The real question is who has the right to have a state inside Palestine's international borders?

Is it the Palestinians who are native to the terrritory?

Or is it the foreigners from Europe?

The people who lived in the British empire had a right to separate from the British empire and form countries -----the jews of palestine did just that Jews have lived in Palestine
for more then 3500 years-----and have also lived in neighboring lands which were invaded
by the dogs of arabia ---and were there subjected to genocide ----the remnant formed
the country which is, TODAY, Israel Of course that remnant has the right to full
compensation for the oppression and genocide inflicted upon them first by the "holy
roman empire" and later the filth and dogs from arabia. Islamo nazi pigs
like to pretend that MOST of the jews who migrated to paletine when the
OTTOMANS mitigated the filth and stench and oppression of racist
laws which deprived jews of their WORLD RECOGNIZED "holy" HOMELAND---
as being 'from europe' In fact most were not---many were far more "indigenous''
than the spawn of the ROMAN EMPIRE brutal invaders and the later brutal
invaders from arabia ---others were escapees from lands that they inhabited
but which has ALSO been invaded by the brutal oppressive spawn of
the "holy roman empire" ----and the dogs of arabia

---the jews of palestine did just that Jews have lived in Palestine
for more then 3500 years--

That is true. There were native Jews living in Palestine. Nobody has said that they have no right to live in Palestine.

 

[Indofred]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWI the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

It was not.
If it had been created in an unoccupied place or been invited somewhere, I see no problem but it started life with terrorism and a driving out of the people that were living there.
That was always going to be a big problem.

Regardless of your opinions regarding Israel, fact remain it started as a terrorist nation, stealing land to establish itself.
That is a matter of recorded history, not an opinion.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, an interesting question.

So all of above including Israel are liars. How about the 138 countries that recently voted to recognize the already existing Palestine. Palestine is more qualified to be a state than Israel.

I guess Tinnie, with roots in the area, would say a thing like that. After all, he doesn't recognize that Israel actually exists.

The real question is who has the right to have a state inside Palestine's international borders?

Is it the Palestinians who are native to the terrritory?

Or is it the foreigners from Europe?

(COMMENT)

Suppose, for a moment, that at the end of WWI, the Ottoman Empire survived, or - at least - did not relinquish the Middle East.

• What then, would be the status of Palestine?
• What then, would prohibit the Ottoman from creating a Jewish National Home and /or State?

Who established the "international borders" of this state called Palestine? When was the state recognized?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, an interesting question.

I guess Tinnie, with roots in the area, would say a thing like that. After all, he doesn't recognize that Israel actually exists.

The real question is who has the right to have a state inside Palestine's international borders?

Is it the Palestinians who are native to the terrritory?

Or is it the foreigners from Europe?

(COMMENT)

Suppose, for a moment, that at the end of WWI, the Ottoman Empire survived, or - at least - did not relinquish the Middle East.

• What then, would be the status of Palestine?
• What then, would prohibit the Ottoman from creating a Jewish National Home and /or State?

Who established the "international borders" of this state called Palestine? When was the state recognized?

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't think that speculation would have any relevance.

Two separate states were created when Palestine and Jordan were separated in 1922. That was the final border to be defined.

A state exists independent from the recognition of other states.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All part of the same Mandate. The British Mandate of Jordan did not end until 1946. Until then, while the Mandatory did grant increasing levels of greater autonomy, it was still part of the Palestine Mandate.

Between 1928 and 1946, a series of Anglo-Transjordanian treaties led to almost full independence for Transjordan. While Britain retained a degree of control over foreign affairs, armed forces, communications and state finances, Emir Abdullah commanded the administrative and military machinery of the regular government. On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan. In exchange for providing military facilities within Transjordan, Britain continued to pay a financial subsidy and supported the Arab Legion. Two months later, on May 25, 1946, the Transjordanian parliament proclaimed Abdullah king, while officially changing the name of the country from the Emirate of Transjordan to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

SOURCE: Jordan - History - The Making of Transjordan

At least, so says the HM, The King of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

I don't think that speculation would have any relevance.

Two separate states were created when Palestine and Jordan were separated in 1922. That was the final border to be defined.

A state exists independent from the recognition of other states.

(COMMENT)

Yes, sometimes thought experiments are too complicated. But then, so is alternative history.

The separation between Jordan and Israel is outlined in the Treaty which refers back to the "Mandate."

1. The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.
2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
3. The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.
4. The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.
5. It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.
6. Immediately upon the exchange of the instruments of ratification of this Treaty, each Party will deploy on its side of the international boundary as defined in Annex I (a).
7. The parties shall, upon the signature of the Treaty, enter into negotiations to conclude, within 9 months, an agreement on the delimitation of their maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba.
8. Taking into account the special circumstances of the Baqura/Naharayim area, which is under Jordanian sovereignty, with Israeli private ownership rights, the Parties agree to apply the provisions set out in Annex I (b).
9. With respect to the Al-Ghamr/Zofar area, the provisions set out in Annex I (c) will apply.​

SOURCE: The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty

Under the Treaty of Sevres, that which was to become known as Palestine --- was specificed by the Treaty "within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers."

SOURCE: SECTION VII. SYRIA, MESOPOTAMIA, PALESTINE ARTICLE 95, Sevres Treaty: Part III​

In 1922, and under Mandate, Trans-Jordan has not yet been created, --- it was not until May 15, 1923, that the UK (as Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Trans-Jordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah (the future King). This effectively cut the issue of Palestine down by 75%. As under the Mandate, gradual levels of autonomy we to be fostered and encouraged.

This is all part of the the same story and the same Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All part of the same Mandate. The British Mandate of Jordan did not end until 1946. Until then, while the Mandatory did grant increasing levels of greater autonomy, it was still part of the Palestine Mandate.

Between 1928 and 1946, a series of Anglo-Transjordanian treaties led to almost full independence for Transjordan. While Britain retained a degree of control over foreign affairs, armed forces, communications and state finances, Emir Abdullah commanded the administrative and military machinery of the regular government. On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan. In exchange for providing military facilities within Transjordan, Britain continued to pay a financial subsidy and supported the Arab Legion. Two months later, on May 25, 1946, the Transjordanian parliament proclaimed Abdullah king, while officially changing the name of the country from the Emirate of Transjordan to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

SOURCE: Jordan - History - The Making of Transjordan

At least, so says the HM, The King of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

I don't think that speculation would have any relevance.

Two separate states were created when Palestine and Jordan were separated in 1922. That was the final border to be defined.

A state exists independent from the recognition of other states.

(COMMENT)

Yes, sometimes thought experiments are too complicated. But then, so is alternative history.

The separation between Jordan and Israel is outlined in the Treaty which refers back to the "Mandate."

1. The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.
2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
3. The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.
4. The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.
5. It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.
6. Immediately upon the exchange of the instruments of ratification of this Treaty, each Party will deploy on its side of the international boundary as defined in Annex I (a).
7. The parties shall, upon the signature of the Treaty, enter into negotiations to conclude, within 9 months, an agreement on the delimitation of their maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba.
8. Taking into account the special circumstances of the Baqura/Naharayim area, which is under Jordanian sovereignty, with Israeli private ownership rights, the Parties agree to apply the provisions set out in Annex I (b).
9. With respect to the Al-Ghamr/Zofar area, the provisions set out in Annex I (c) will apply.​

SOURCE: The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty

Under the Treaty of Sevres, that which was to become known as Palestine --- was specificed by the Treaty "within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers."

SOURCE: SECTION VII. SYRIA, MESOPOTAMIA, PALESTINE ARTICLE 95, Sevres Treaty: Part III​

In 1922, and under Mandate, Trans-Jordan has not yet been created, --- it was not until May 15, 1923, that the UK (as Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Trans-Jordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah (the future King). This effectively cut the issue of Palestine down by 75%. As under the Mandate, gradual levels of autonomy we to be fostered and encouraged.

This is all part of the the same story and the same Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

And the mandate left Palestine in the same legal position it had before it was before Britain was assigned to Palestine.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All part of the same Mandate. The British Mandate of Jordan did not end until 1946. Until then, while the Mandatory did grant increasing levels of greater autonomy, it was still part of the Palestine Mandate.

Between 1928 and 1946, a series of Anglo-Transjordanian treaties led to almost full independence for Transjordan. While Britain retained a degree of control over foreign affairs, armed forces, communications and state finances, Emir Abdullah commanded the administrative and military machinery of the regular government. On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan. In exchange for providing military facilities within Transjordan, Britain continued to pay a financial subsidy and supported the Arab Legion. Two months later, on May 25, 1946, the Transjordanian parliament proclaimed Abdullah king, while officially changing the name of the country from the Emirate of Transjordan to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

SOURCE: Jordan - History - The Making of Transjordan

At least, so says the HM, The King of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.



(COMMENT)

Yes, sometimes thought experiments are too complicated. But then, so is alternative history.

The separation between Jordan and Israel is outlined in the Treaty which refers back to the "Mandate."

1. The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.
2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
3. The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.
4. The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.
5. It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.
6. Immediately upon the exchange of the instruments of ratification of this Treaty, each Party will deploy on its side of the international boundary as defined in Annex I (a).
7. The parties shall, upon the signature of the Treaty, enter into negotiations to conclude, within 9 months, an agreement on the delimitation of their maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba.
8. Taking into account the special circumstances of the Baqura/Naharayim area, which is under Jordanian sovereignty, with Israeli private ownership rights, the Parties agree to apply the provisions set out in Annex I (b).
9. With respect to the Al-Ghamr/Zofar area, the provisions set out in Annex I (c) will apply.​

SOURCE: The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty

Under the Treaty of Sevres, that which was to become known as Palestine --- was specificed by the Treaty "within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers."

SOURCE: SECTION VII. SYRIA, MESOPOTAMIA, PALESTINE ARTICLE 95, Sevres Treaty: Part III​

In 1922, and under Mandate, Trans-Jordan has not yet been created, --- it was not until May 15, 1923, that the UK (as Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Trans-Jordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah (the future King). This effectively cut the issue of Palestine down by 75%. As under the Mandate, gradual levels of autonomy we to be fostered and encouraged.

This is all part of the the same story and the same Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

And the mandate left Palestine in the same legal position it had before it was before Britain was assigned to Palestine.

One question, Barrister. Is that mandate still in effect and valid?

 

[irosie91]

Calm down folks-----Tinnie has decided that there is a country
named "palestine"----which was created in 1922---and nothing
can happen to change that fact because tinnie decided.
The good news for the muslims of the world is that once
the British Empire broke up ---the LEGAL STATUS OF THE
INDIAN SUBCONTINENT as a MOGHUL CALIPHATE---
was restored----it the Indian subcontinent reverted to its
FORMER LEGAL STATUS

Even better----the IBERIAN PENNINSULA
---actually reverted to its former LEGAL
STATUS as an ISLAMIC CALIPHATE----
with the battle of ANDALUSIA

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

All part of the same Mandate. The British Mandate of Jordan did not end until 1946. Until then, while the Mandatory did grant increasing levels of greater autonomy, it was still part of the Palestine Mandate.



At least, so says the HM, The King of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.



(COMMENT)

Yes, sometimes thought experiments are too complicated. But then, so is alternative history.

The separation between Jordan and Israel is outlined in the Treaty which refers back to the "Mandate."



Under the Treaty of Sevres, that which was to become known as Palestine --- was specificed by the Treaty "within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers."

SOURCE: SECTION VII. SYRIA, MESOPOTAMIA, PALESTINE ARTICLE 95, Sevres Treaty: Part III​

In 1922, and under Mandate, Trans-Jordan has not yet been created, --- it was not until May 15, 1923, that the UK (as Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Trans-Jordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah (the future King). This effectively cut the issue of Palestine down by 75%. As under the Mandate, gradual levels of autonomy we to be fostered and encouraged.

This is all part of the the same story and the same Mandate.

Most Respectfully,
R

And the mandate left Palestine in the same legal position it had before it was before Britain was assigned to Palestine.

One question, Barrister. Is that mandate still in effect and valid?

No, it abandoned all its goals and cut and ran.

It left accomplishing nothing except trashing Palestine and creating a never ending war.

Palestine was still there and the natives still had their right to self determination without external interference.

 

[member]

"The real question is who has the right to have a state inside Palestine's international borders? Is it the Palestinians who are native to the terrritory? Or is it the foreigners from Europe?"

“PALESTINE”


I was staring

at the map again.

you can understand how the Palestinians feel. They did live there as well (MBJ). But forming a suicide bombing gang…to gruesome of a way to-get your point across.



Too bad "PALESTINE" is not going to be “one whole place.”

Gaza here, WB there….

Maybe the Palestinians should move out of the gaza strip and move NORTHEAST, near the syria-lebanon border...above the WB, so you can be "one whole place" instead of split up...

they have moving companies in ...the Gaza Strip don't they ?

 

[toastman]

Palestine is the worlds greatest invention

 

[P F Tinmore]

And the mandate left Palestine in the same legal position it had before it was before Britain was assigned to Palestine.

One question, Barrister. Is that mandate still in effect and valid?

No, it abandoned all its goals and cut and ran.

It left accomplishing nothing except trashing Palestine and creating a never ending war.

Palestine was still there and the natives still had their right to self determination without external interference.

The right to self determination without external interference.

Israel supporters generally duck this issue.

It is the natives who have the right to self determination not foreigners.

External (foreign) interference that denies this right to the natives is illegal.

 

[Billo_Really]

Palestine is the worlds greatest invention

That comment should settle who is trying to wipe out who?

 

[Indofred]

Palestine is the worlds greatest invention

Show me a map with Israel on it. It'll either be 2,000 years old be dated after 1946.

 

[toastman]

Palestine is the worlds greatest invention

Show me a map with Israel on it. It'll either be 2,000 years old be dated after 1946.

Where's Palestine ?

 

[Indofred]

Palestine is the worlds greatest invention

Show me a map with Israel on it. It'll either be 2,000 years old be dated after 1946.

Where's Palestine ?

They seem to have missed Israel off all the maps. Should we spank their naughty bums?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestine is the worlds greatest invention

Show me a map with Israel on it. It'll either be 2,000 years old be dated after 1946.

Where's Palestine ?

The British Mandate is short for the British Mandate for Palestine.

The rest of us knew that.

 

[toastman]

Show me a map with Israel on it. It'll either be 2,000 years old be dated after 1946.

Where's Palestine ?

The British Mandate is short for the British Mandate for Palestine.

The rest of us knew that.

Ah, so the British controlled the land, not the Fakestinians. Thanks for clarifying that

 

[toastman]

Show me a map with Israel on it. It'll either be 2,000 years old be dated after 1946.

Where's Palestine ?

They seem to have missed Israel off all the maps. Should we spank their naughty bums?

Wheres Palestine ??