Should Israel have been created?

[Isaac Brock]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWI the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?

 

[freeandfun1]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWII the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?

The choice was either put them there, or allow them to immigrate to the USA. So yes, it was the right thing to do. I would rather them be fighting for their lives over there than here. If they had come here, the Muslims would be chasing them here. There is no doubt about that and terrorist attacks would have started HERE way before 9-11. Plus, historically, it was/is their homeland and that IS NOT debatable.

 

[Isaac Brock]

The choice was either put them there, or allow them to immigrate to the USA. So yes, it was the right thing to do. I would rather them be fighting for their lives over there than here. If they had come here, the Muslims would be chasing them here. There is no doubt about that and terrorist attacks would have started HERE way before 9-11. Plus, historically, it was/is their homeland and that IS NOT debatable.

It was certainly their homeland, but it was also other cultures homeland. Under Ottoman rule, Jews and Muslim had a relatively high degree of tolerance compared to Europe. I don't agree that the same animosty between Muslims and Jews would have existed without the presence of the state of Israel.

Of course the best solution would be that they could all exist peacefully like so many other cultures in the world, but pipe dreams are just that.

 

[freeandfun1]

It was certainly their homeland, but it was also other cultures homeland. Under Ottoman rule, Jews and Muslim had a relatively high degree of tolerance compared to Europe. I don't agree that the same animosty between Muslims and Jews would have existed without the presence of the state of Israel.

Of course the best solution would be that they could all exist peacefully like so many other cultures in the world, but pipe dreams are just that.

ahhh, but the Jews were peacefully settled in the area of Israel when they were pushed from their homeland by Mohammed and his gang of thugs under HIS new religion. So THEY started the entire thing.

 

[Isaac Brock]

ahhh, but the Jews were peacefully settled in the area of Israel when they were pushed from their homeland by Mohammed and his gang of thugs under HIS new religion. So THEY started the entire thing.

Agreed, but the Franks pushed out the pagan Celts. Should we return France to Ireland or Scotland (haha okay bad example, i know what you'll say on that one? Or return US and Canada to its native people. Or most of Russia back to the Turkmen?

The reality is that history has a nasty problem with displacing conquered people. So as gregarious, enlightened folk of the 20th and 21st century how do we mitigate history with the rightful homes of various people?

I'm afraid I don't have a very good answer to that. Ideas?

 

[ajwps]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWII the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?

I've got a big surprise for you. The Jewish people did not get Israel by the good graces of the UN or the allied nations.

Israel established itself as a sovereign nation ALL BY ITSELF.

The UN simply voted by a majority to approve of Israel's already established sovereign state. The very next day, 5 Arab armies attacked Israel armed with mostly a few Israeli's who had been in Israel for generations and mostly the survivors of the Nazi concentration camps.

Lo and behold, Israel had nothing but a few guns and one piper plane and yet they beat off the armies attacking them.

When a country wins against 5 armies attacking them in order to kill all of its citizens, then that country that won the war waged against them finally and irrevocably owns the land by right of WINNING.

Sorry but all your wishes and desires to the opposite are to no avail and all the civilizations who have tried it for 3 thousand years have failed and will continue to fail.

Have a good day..

 

[freeandfun1]

Agreed, but the Franks pushed out the pagan Celts. Should we return France to Ireland or Scotland (haha okay bad example, i know what you'll say on that one? Or return US and Canada to its native people. Or most of Russia back to the Turkmen?

The reality is that history has a nasty problem with displacing conquered people. So as gregarious, enlightened folk of the 20th and 21st century how do we mitigate history with the rightful homes of various people?

I'm afraid I don't have a very good answer to that. Ideas?

I understand what you are saying, but my point is that they have been fighting over the same land for centuries. They (the Jews) have stayed in the area. I think your examples are bad ones as the Jews did not leave the land. There just never was a "state" as they, like native Americans, didn't believe in states. None in that region did. We (the west) formed SA, Jordan, Syria, etc., so why not give the Jews a state? We gave all the Muslims states, so fair is fair in my book.

 

[ajwps]

I understand what you are saying, but my point is that they have been fighting over the same land for centuries. They (the Jews) have stayed in the area. I think your examples are bad ones as the Jews did not leave the land. There just never was a "state" as they, like native Americans, didn't believe in states. None in that region did. We (the west) formed SA, Jordan, Syria, etc., so why not give the Jews a state? We gave all the Muslims states, so fair is fair in my book.

Who are the 'THEY' that have been fighting over Israel for centuries?

When the Hebrews came into the land of Israel they fought and eliminated all the Canannites, Hittites, Philistines and all other idol worshiping and children sacrificing people who lived in Cannan.

Like you say, since that time, surrounding countries have waged wars against Israel, taken large portions of the Jewish people captive and tried to destroy the land.

The answer lies in the fact that England belongs to the English, France belong the French, America belongs to the Americans and Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

Anyone who wants to take over England, France, Germany, Israel or America for themselves will have to win the land in a war wagaed against these peoples.

No other country or land can give away another people's land to those who don't want anything but death of the inhabitants of that country.

Bush is slowly learning this fact and Sharon will learn it the hard way.

 

[Isaac Brock]

I've got a big surprise for you. The Jewish people did not get Israel by the good graces of the UN or the allied nations.

Israel established itself as a sovereign nation ALL BY ITSELF.

The UN simply voted by a majority to approve of Israel's already established sovereign state. The very next day, 5 Arab armies attacked Israel armed with mostly a few Israeli's who had been in Israel for generations and mostly the survivors of the Nazi concentration camps.

Lo and behold, Israel had nothing but a few guns and one piper plane and yet they beat off the armies attacking them.

When a country wins against 5 armies attacking them in order to kill all of its citizens, then that country that won owns the land by right of WINNING.

Sorry but all your wishes and desires to the opposite are to no avail and all the civilizations who have tried it for 3 thousand years have failed and will continue to fail.

Have a good day..

I was under the impression that Creation of Israel was apart of the Franco-British Sykes Picot/Balfour agreement? As i understand, after the defeat of the Ottomans in WWII the British suggested Jews immigrate back to their homeland as thanks for their aid in over-running the Ottomans. Under an agreement, the Jews settle 25% of the British Mandated Palestine and gave the other 75%, Trans-Jordan to ther current "Palestinian" occupants.

I understood that a UN resolution in 1947 allowed the partition of British mandated Palestine which wasn't supported by Arab nations and that Israel declared independence according to the passed UN resolution.

Sometime I just wonder for the Jewish people whether or not they would have been better off and more secure living in various countries post-WWII. Of course, I am not Jewish and cannot answer that.

 

[NATO AIR]

Issac, AJ is like the Jewish William Joyce, he's way out there and quick to condemn you without making much sense. Free&fun is actually coherent, fair and pretty knowledgeable with sources and decent opinions. trying to debate with AJ is near impossible. he'll just label you an anti-semite and run around like his heads cut off about israel, sharon being evil, america hating israel, etc etc.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Issac, AJ is like the Jewish William Joyce, he's way out there and quick to condemn you without making much sense. Free&fun is actually coherent, fair and pretty knowledgeable with sources and decent opinions. trying to debate with AJ is near impossible. he'll just label you an anti-semite and run around like his heads cut off about israel, sharon being evil, america hating israel, etc etc.

Absolutely no worries. I'm completely open to ideas on both sides of the issue. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure myself what I think on this issue and was actually hoping to hear arguments on both sides. I know the question doesn't change anything in the present, but I thought it was an interesting thought experiment at the very least.

FF's was a good one for sure. AJ has a perfect right to express his views, though, like you said, I wish he did without believing i'm out there to exterminate the Jewish race.

What's your thoughts?

 

[NATO AIR]

Absolutely no worries. I'm completely open to ideas on both sides of the issue. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure myself what I think on this issue and was actually hoping to hear arguments on both sides. I know the question doesn't change anything in the present, but I thought it was an interesting thought experiment at the very least.

FF's was a good one for sure. AJ has a perfect right to express his views, though, like you said, I wish he did without believing i'm out there to exterminate the Jewish race.

What's your thoughts?

Israel's creation created Pandora's box in the already backwards Middle East. In addition, if Israel gets a state, why not the Kurds? the Tibetans? countless other oppressed and margainalized minorities?

I take all the Bible/Koran/Torah stuff with a huge grain of salt so I'm not into "that's their chosen land" or any of the stuff like that, so I guess that's why my view is quite different from that of others.

For me, no, the state of Israel did not deserve to be created. As it is now though, I do believe in and support the state of Israel. I just wish the settler elements would shut up and move out.

 

[freeandfun1]

Israel's creation created Pandora's box in the already backwards Middle East. In addition, if Israel gets a state, why not the Kurds? the Tibetans? countless other oppressed and margainalized minorities?

I take all the Bible/Koran/Torah stuff with a huge grain of salt so I'm not into "that's their chosen land" or any of the stuff like that, so I guess that's why my view is quite different from that of others.

For me, no, the state of Israel did not deserve to be created. As it is now though, I do believe in and support the state of Israel. I just wish the settler elements would shut up and move out.

I fully understand your position, but then what about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc.? Did they have a right to be formed? Were we right to sit by as they either exterminated or deported the jews that lived in those lands? Without the formation of Israel, I would say the formation of those predominately Islamic states was wrong too.

 

[NATO AIR]

I fully understand your position, but then what about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc.? Did they have a right to be formed? Were we right to sit by as they either exterminated or deported the jews that lived in those lands? Without the formation of Israel, I would say the formation of those predominately Islamic states was wrong too.

true.

i see it like this, europe FUCKED us with the way they divied up nations in the 20th century. there are so many countries that shouldn't be countries right now it isn't funny (nigeria, the congo, etc etc). now we're stuck with the mistakes a bunch of inbred idiots made.

 

[freeandfun1]

true.

i see it like this, europe FUCKED us with the way they divied up nations in the 20th century. there are so many countries that shouldn't be countries right now it isn't funny (nigeria, the congo, etc etc). now we're stuck with the mistakes a bunch of inbred idiots made.

On that point, we are in total agreement!

 

[Isaac Brock]

I understand what you are saying, but my point is that they have been fighting over the same land for centuries. They (the Jews) have stayed in the area. I think your examples are bad ones as the Jews did not leave the land. There just never was a "state" as they, like native Americans, didn't believe in states. None in that region did. We (the west) formed SA, Jordan, Syria, etc., so why not give the Jews a state? We gave all the Muslims states, so fair is fair in my book.

You do make a good point. Though Jews did leave the land othen in that period either on their own accord (though more often that not due to persecution) or were forceable coerced which I don't think make them a unique entity in the grand historical context.

I agree that if Europe quit playing Nation-maker around the world in the 19th and 20th century, much of the problems could be avoided. Interestingly, the Arab nations proposed a unified Palestine with dual Arab and Jewish parliaments. I wonder if it was that "this is your land Arabs and this is your land Jews" idea that caused the source for much of the problems.

Your point on creation of Muslim states, so why not Israel is well taken.

 

[DaTroof]

I always thought that the Ottoman Empire ended during WW1 ... "In 1922, Ottoman rule officially came to an end when Turkey was declared a republic"
( http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/OTTOMAN/EUROPE.HTM ).

As for the Jews coming to Israel after WW2, that was just the latest wave. There have always been Jews in Israel ... lots of them. In fact, the population until the 20th century was so sparce that the Jews actually made up the majority of several large cities like Acho. They where Ottoman Jews and the neighbors where Ottoman Arabs. It was all hunky dory except that the Jews enjoyed minimal legal protection (insert jewish lawyer joke here), but the Arabs where OK with it because they where all Ottoman Arabs and the Jews didn't actually rule.

With the continued persecution of Jews across Europe from West to East many Jews began emigrating to Israel until the late 19th Century when the pogroms in Russia and Poland got so bad that the Jews had almost no choice but to go to Israel or the US. At that point Israel was still full of swamps and generally inhospitable. Many of these Jews (chalutsim = pioneers) died from malaria drying these swamps with Eucaliptus trees (they drink a lot of water). It is during this time that Hertzel and the World Zionist Organization began to opperate. So it's not like the Arabs really payed much attention to the land before they noticed a lot of Jews continuing to emigrate.

By the end of WW1 the British had promissed everything to everyone (the French aren't off the hook on this charge either). It was general mayhem in the territory. The Arabs refused to conceed any land despite the de facto Jewish state. All the Jews wanted was the British out because they felt that they where impeding the creation of this state. When the Arabs cried about the boatloads of Jews coming in after WW2, and the British blocked them entry, it was the last straw. The Jews started blowing crap up too .. like the King David Hotel (they called the hotel before the blast and told them there is a bomb in the building). The British wanted out, drew some squigly lines on the map, split the land, and where in London by tea.

So the land was never without Jews. And that biblical crap that you are talking about isn't 100% true, but it's not 100% off either. I'm a Cohen. Unless some guys got together and played a huge prank, i can trace my lineage, father to son, all the way to Aron, Moses' brother. And even if you don't believe that, understand this ... At every Jewish wedding we break a glass to remember the destruction of the temple and the desire to return. The very last prayer of the holiest day, Yom Kippur (which the Arab cowards desecrated with a sneak attack) ends with this prayer .. "Bashana ha'ba'ah biyerushalayim" ... Next year in Jerusalem. This may be so much crap to you, but that is because you have never been in my shoes.

I believe that the Kurds should have their own country. as should the Tibetens etc. If you are a people with your own culture and language, preferabely, than you should be abl;e to call your motherland your state. How lucky for you that you already have your own country. I will not be denide mine, and I don't give a rat's ass about the UN and their insane condemnations. I didn't need that league of nations then, and I think the US and Israel should both ceceed now.

Any thought on cecetion from the UN ?! We could use the real estate.

 

[manu1959]

http://www.palestinehistory.com/time1900.htm

i like this site....as it is the most even handed one i have found for time line facts

 

[drac]

"Should israel have been created?"... I find this question very .... "strange".
Should usa, france, germany.... have been created? Who are 'you' (general you here, not specific at brock) to ask it or decide?

The best chance any group of people united by the same culture, language, customs... have is to live in the independent country of their own. Especially if those people are prosecuted, their rights are denied by others and they are treated as second class citizen. Very very "strange" question.

(and do not reply with retoric about palestians, because i believe that palestians, kurds... should have their own country)

 

[Isaac Brock]

"Should israel have been created?"... I find this question very .... "strange".
Should usa, france, germany.... have been created? Who are 'you' (general you here, not specific at brock) to ask it or decide?

The best chance any group of people united by the same culture, language, customs... have is to live in the independent country of their own. Especially if those people are prosecuted, their rights are denied by others and they are treated as second class citizen. Very very "strange" question.

(and do not reply with retoric about palestians, because i believe that palestians, kurds... should have their own country)

I want to make it clear that the question was not meant to offend or disparage the Jewish or Arab people. I just never found the situation to be clear cut. While the point was given that other nationalities have homelands, the point is that not all nationalities have homelands. The Irani (not to be confused with Iranian), Basque, Kurds, Sami, Native American/Inuit, Cossack, Turkmen are all very distinct nationalities, most who have been,unfortunately, oppressed sometime in history.

It's not question of whether they deserve a homeland, it's a question if the Jews would have been better off remaining a cultural entity as they existed before. Of course, I ask this with the benefit of hindsight.

Consider if we had created Kurdistan at the same time as Israel. The Arabs of Iraq, Turks and Sunnis from Iran from the region would have most likely gone to war to press their claims on that territory as well. It's always a tricky situation to cede land where other populations are present to create new countries.