Should Black Degrees be Equally Valued?

[☭proletarian☭]

Every scientific study ever done shows differences in average IQ and brain size between the major races.

Brain size has nothing to do with intelligence and IQ is subjective.

fail

Modern studies using MRI imaging have shown that brain size correlates with IQ by a factor of approximately .40 among adults (McDaniel, 2005). The correlation between brain size and IQ seems to hold for comparisons between and within families (Gignac et al. 2003; Jensen 1994; Jensen & Johnson 1994). However, one study found no familial correlation (Schoenemann et al. 2000). A study on twins (Thompson et al., 2001) showed that frontal gray matter volume was correlated with g and highly heritable. A related study has reported that the correlation between brain size (reported to have a heritability of 0.85) and g is 0.4, and that correlation is mediated entirely by genetic factors (Posthuma et al 2002).

 

[Ravi]

Nope. You fail.

The study demonstrated that general human intelligence appears to be correlated with the volume and location of gray matter tissue in the brain. Although the regional distribution of gray matter in humans may have a genetic basis, structural changes can also occur in response to environmental stimulation. The study also demonstrated that, of the brain's gray matter, only about 6 percent appeared to be related to IQ

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[IanC]

its funny that most of the posters here dismiss the extremely large correlations and yet if you asked them if smoking causes lung cancer they would say "of course"

 

[Samson]

IQ is proportional to competence. links have previously been provided

Really?

How do you measure "competence?"


Oh, BTW sorry, for assulting you with questions for which you haven't any answer.

 

[IanC]

IQ is proportional to competence. links have previously been provided

Really?

How do you measure "competence?"


Oh, BTW sorry, for assulting you with questions for which you haven't any answer.

you didn't read the link that talked about the military's study on simple tasks? no chance for racism because you could either do the task or not. and the AFQT mental test strongly predicted the soldiers performance. and black IQ was equally predictive to white IQ. got that? no racial bias, IQ important in everyday tasks.


it was part of, or included with the study I posted showing that black earning gaps were a function of being less prepared (euphanism for less educated and less intelligent) than other young adults.


go back and read it in the 'untapped black talent pool' thread.

 

[Samson]

IQ is proportional to competence. links have previously been provided

Really?

How do you measure "competence?"


Oh, BTW sorry, for assulting you with questions for which you haven't any answer.

you didn't read the link that talked about the military's study on simple tasks? no chance for racism because you could either do the task or not. and the AFQT mental test strongly predicted the soldiers performance. and black IQ was equally predictive to white IQ. got that? no racial bias, IQ important in everyday tasks.


it was part of, or included with the study I posted showing that black earning gaps were a function of being less prepared (euphanism for less educated and less intelligent) than other young adults.


go back and read it in the 'untapped black talent pool' thread.

So, competence = the ability to do simple tasks?

 

[Toronado3800]

and I also know about guys like you at kid's games. yes, you've made lots of scenes all right. will your wife even sit with you any more? do the other parents avoid you like the plague? how many enemies do you have. I bet you know better than those stupid coaches too, am I right? there is a saying,"no good deed goes unpunished". guys like you are the punishment for people involved in kid's sports.

I'm not much for yelling at coaches. The over-involved parents are worse than me! Really they're not my kids either, my sister has a few and a couple times a season I'll go and watch em.

My wife rolls her eyes at me a few times, my sister loves it. You gotta understand, I'm a big fella with a deep voice so I don't have to jump up and down and be all loud. I'm more the cynical type where I come up with a Dr House type thing to say..... a guy makes one too many black jokes. I walk up and make a Irish or Italian joke or the like depending on what I think his back ground is. Folks barely get the reference and no one laughs. I blush and say "yeah, I guess all that racist BS seems ignorant now, like it should have went out in the 1860's."

Enemies, probably a few. Most racists are pretty timid ppl though face to face. They're the type of folks who are the first to move out of a neighborhood when a black family moves in. Them cowards.

I believe you when you confess to being a jerk. I am also pretty sure that you are a psycho. first you had the fantasy of leaving a helpless white couple in a black neighbourhood after you 'volunteered' to help them. I know what it is like to help out strangers, and you do it for the sake of the act. purposely deserting the people in need would be contrary to the nature of a person willing to help in the first place. (and there aren't many men who need help changing a flat, and if necessary the auto club or a tow truck is safer than some wacko like you)

Oh yeah. To me it's like volunteering to feed Germany between the wars then withdrawing my aid after the Nazi's took over. All bets are off after I find out you're a jerk.

************
I can't dispute the black man in america has economic problems. I'll blame it on culture and racism, sometimes human nature

For example. It's easier to stay in bed of slack off when their is something working against you. If its "too cold" to go clean the gutters. If its too far to go pick up this or that. Or if the boss IS a little racist its a little easier to skip work or stay home.

********************
I'd be curious if anyone has some links on "income compared to IQ level" or "IQ level changes throughout one's life". Seems like some of the "bright" kids in high school never had to learn the study skills which translate into good work ethics.

 

[IanC]

Biased?An obvious objection to our interpretation of table 1 is that the AFQTis a racially biased test in the sense that its scores underpredict pro-ductivity or job performance for blacks compared to whites. For manytests, it would be impossible to judge the validity of such an assertionbecause we typically have no way of directly measuring job perfor-mance and relating it to the test scores received. However, in 1991the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) completed an exhaustivestudy with the Department of Defense of the validity of the AFQTwith special emphasis on the racial fairness of the test. The uniqueaspect of the NAS study is that job performance was measured with-out using either supervisor evaluations or written tests, two methodsthat could be seen as introducing racial bias. Instead, for several mili-tary occupational specialties, direct measures of performance on thetasks constituting the job were undertaken. As an example, the jobof infantry rifleman in the Marine Corps was broken into 15 tasksand each task further divided into subtasks. Subtasks were smallenough that performance could be evaluated by a (1, 0) yes-no scor-ing system, which ensured a high degree of consistency across evalua-tors. Military job experts designed a weighting system that translatesthe subtask scores into a composite job performance measure.5 Thenthese "hands-on" measures of job performance were regressed onthe AFQT score of the individual at the time he or she enlisted inthe military.How well does AFQT predict military job performance? For the23 military occupations studied, the correlations between AFQTscores and job performance ranged from .13 to .49, with a mediancorrelation of .38.16 The more important question, however, concernsracial bias, a key issue for the NAS panel. It concluded that AFQTdoes not systematically underpredict black job performance relativeto white performance: "for practical purposes the same regressionlines predicted performance about as well for both groups" (Wigdor15 Examples of tasks tested are land navigation, squad automatic weapons, first aid,night vision device, rifle, live fire, etc. (see Wigdor and Green 1991, vol. 1).16 These correlations are likely to understate the correlation between AFQT and ageneral skill or capacity to learn a specific task because selection into military occupa-tional specialties is accomplished in part with test scores. Hence the range of test scoresfor any particular job is truncated. Since AFQT is also used to select individuals intothe military, any observations about racial differences in the power of AFQT to predictmilitary job performance apply only to the individuals joining the military.
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BLACK-WHITE WAGE DIFFERENCES879and Green 1991, p. 179). 17 If anything, test scores slightly overpredictjob performance by blacks. We view the NAS findings as strong inde-pendent verification that the AFQT can be considered a racially unbi-ased predictor of success in acquiring new skills in the military, andwe have no reason to believe that the AFQT would be a racially biasedpredictor of success in acquiring civilian job skills.Do Blacks Underinvest in Skill Because theReturn Is Lower?Models of discrimination developed by Arrow (1973) and Lundbergand Startz (1983) yield discriminatory equilibria from black-white dif-ferences in the return to acquiring skill. In both models, blacks withmore skill have more difficulty distinguishing themselves to employ-ers than high-skill whites, and therefore the payoff to acquiring skillis lower for blacks. Our results in table 1 indicate that blacks andwhites earn different wages in large part because they typically begintheir careers with different levels of human capital. These models ofdiscrimination highlight the possibility that black youths enter thelabor market with relatively few skills simply because they anticipatethat the returns from acquiring skills will be low.We investigate this possibility in tables 2 and 3. While we have nodirect evidence about the expectations of these youths, we can lookfor differences among blacks, whites, and Hispanics in the realizedeffects of AFQT scores on civilian wages. The regression equationsreported in column 1 of both tables 2 and 3 include an interactionbetween black and AFQT. For men, there is some indication thatblack men fare relatively better at the high end of the AFQT distribu-tion. For women, the opposite is true. However, for both sexes, theestimated coefficients on the interaction terms are jointly insignifi-cant.'8 The remaining results in tables 2 and 3 show the marginaleffect of AFQT on log wages for each racial group. There are small,statistically insignificant black-white differences for men in table 2,and columns 2 and 3 of table 3 show that AFQT exerts an almostidentical effect on the wages of black and white women. For bothblack and white men and women, the law of one price roughly holdsfor skill as measured by AFQT. Nonetheless, since the Cutright(1973) study found that the return to skill investment was lower for17 At the mean level of black test scores, the average overprediction of black perfor-mance, in standardized units, is .15 when the job includes at least 75 blacks tested(Wigdor and Green 1991, p. 178). Overprediction also occurs on average for jobs withsmaller samples of blacks.18 Under the null hypothesis that the coefficients on both interaction terms are zero,the F-statistics for the male and female regressions are 2.20 and 2.17, respectively.
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[IanC]

sorry about the length and spacing but it is difficult to get info from a PDF. the first page is the most notable

 

[IanC]

These correlations are likely to understate the correlation between AFQT and ageneral skill or capacity to learn a specific task because selection into military occupa-tional specialties is accomplished in part with test scores. Hence the range of test scoresfor any particular job is truncated. Since AFQT is also used to select individuals intothe military, any observations about racial differences in the power of AFQT to predictmilitary job performance apply only to the individuals joining the military.

I hope you caught this restriction of range problem. the military takes the vast majority of its inductees from the range of IQ 90+ which means that most blacks cannot join the armed forces. and the blacks who are able to join fall mostly in the category IIIb which is roughly IQ 90- 100.

 

[Ravi]

I can do walls of text, too!

Ironically, the authors delete from their composite AFQT score a timed test of numerical operations because it is not highly correlated with the other tests. Yet it is well known that in the data they use, this subtest is the single best predictor of earnings of all the AFQT test components. The fact that many of the subtests are only weakly correlated with each other, and that the best predictor of earnings is only weakly correlated with their "g-loaded" score, only heightens doubts that a single-ability model is a satisfactory description of human intelligence. It also drives home the point that the "g-loading" so strongly emphasized by Murray and Herrnstein measures only agreement among tests—not predictive power for socioeconomic outcomes. By the same token, one could also argue that the authors have biased their empirical analysis against the conclusions they obtain by disregarding the test with the greatest predictive power.

 

[IanC]

I can do walls of text, too!

Ironically, the authors delete from their composite AFQT score a timed test of numerical operations because it is not highly correlated with the other tests. Yet it is well known that in the data they use, this subtest is the single best predictor of earnings of all the AFQT test components. The fact that many of the subtests are only weakly correlated with each other, and that the best predictor of earnings is only weakly correlated with their "g-loaded" score, only heightens doubts that a single-ability model is a satisfactory description of human intelligence. It also drives home the point that the "g-loading" so strongly emphasized by Murray and Herrnstein measures only agreement among tests—not predictive power for socioeconomic outcomes. By the same token, one could also argue that the authors have biased their empirical analysis against the conclusions they obtain by disregarding the test with the greatest predictive power.

link please, for context.

the correlation between income and IQ drops off after certain thresholds are met. eg lots of smart professors earning less money but more prestige. lots of sub IQ80 people who earn minimum wage if they work at all

 

[beowolfe]

especially in elite universities, and other school that practise AA, blacks are admitted with markedly lower qualifications, receive lower grades and pass independent qualification exams at a lower rate than other groups. is it reasonable to give them the same credit for a diploma when the chances are that they will underperform? would you chose a black doctor or lawyer knowing that they were close to the bottom of their class?

WOW!! I've never seen a 'black degree'. Have you?

 

[beowolfe]

It amazes me how some white people want to take the results of almost 400 years of opression and convert that result into a cause.

 

[Samson]

It amazes me how some white people want to take the results of almost 400 years of opression and convert that result into a cause.

Whites were oppressed for 400 years?



Now I support Reparations!!!

Where is my Current Value of a Mule and 180 acres???!!!!

 

[☭proletarian☭]

your forty acres are in Liberia

here's your mule

 

[Samson]

your forty acres are in Liberia

here's your mule

What a rip-off! I was promised a MULE.

I got a Donkey?

WHAT'S A WHITE BROTHA Suppos' to do wid a fucking donkey?

(Don't Answer That).

 

[IanC]

especially in elite universities, and other school that practise AA, blacks are admitted with markedly lower qualifications, receive lower grades and pass independent qualification exams at a lower rate than other groups. is it reasonable to give them the same credit for a diploma when the chances are that they will underperform? would you chose a black doctor or lawyer knowing that they were close to the bottom of their class?

This is crap. I'm currently finishing my BA now and you are telling me that blacks under perform. I'm working my butt off. And I didn't get into college with lower qualification or grades than whites.

Where are you getting this crap from?

Nia-- while I still have not been able to find the links with the exact numbers for U of Michigan, here is part of a press release about the statistics released under the FOIA

Undergraduate Admissions

In the most recent year (2005), the median black admittee’s SAT score was 1160, versus 1260 for Hispanics, 1350 for whites, and 1400 for Asians. High school GPAs were 3.4 for the median black, 3.6 for Hispanics, 3.8 for Asians, and 3.9 for whites.

In the four years analyzed, UM rejected over 8000 Hispanics, Asians, and whites who had higher SAT or ACT scores and GPAs than the median black admittee--including nearly 2700 students in 2005 alone.

The black-to-white odds ratio for 2005 was 70 to 1 among students taking the SAT, and 63 to 1 for students taking the ACT. (To put this in perspective, the odds ratio for nonsmokers versus smokers dying from lung cancer is only 14 to 1.)

In terms of probability of admissions in 2005, black and Hispanic students with a 1240 SAT and a 3.2 high school GPA, for instance, had a 9 out of 10 chance of admissions, while whites and Asians in this group had only a 1 out of 10 chance.

These disparities are reflected in subsequent academic performance at the University of Michigan, where blacks and Hispanics earn lower grades, and are less likely to be in the honors program and more likely to be on academic probation, than whites and Asians.

I am not saying that you got into your school with lower qualifications because you are black. but I am saying that the majority of blacks get into Universities with lower qualifications than whites or asians. why don't you post the admissions data from your school?

 

[IanC]

Really?

How do you measure "competence?"


Oh, BTW sorry, for assulting you with questions for which you haven't any answer.

you didn't read the link that talked about the military's study on simple tasks? no chance for racism because you could either do the task or not. and the AFQT mental test strongly predicted the soldiers performance. and black IQ was equally predictive to white IQ. got that? no racial bias, IQ important in everyday tasks.


it was part of, or included with the study I posted showing that black earning gaps were a function of being less prepared (euphanism for less educated and less intelligent) than other young adults.


go back and read it in the 'untapped black talent pool' thread.

So, competence = the ability to do simple tasks?

I have noticed that you seldom respond to answers to your questions, yet you rant about the ones that aren't answered to your satisfaction.

you mocked competence as being able to do standard tasks, broken down into component actions, which can then be graded and compared to IQ scores. but now that I have brought up evidence as to how and when it was done you are silent

It concluded that AFQTdoes not systematically underpredict black job performance relativeto white performance: "for practical purposes the same regressionlines predicted performance about as well for both groups" (Wigdor15 Examples of tasks tested are land navigation, squad automatic weapons, first aid,night vision device, rifle, live fire, etc. (see Wigdor and Green 1991, vol. 1).16 These correlations are likely to understate the correlation between AFQT and ageneral skill or capacity to learn a specific task because selection into military occupa-tional specialties is accomplished in part with test scores.

It really seems odd to me that so many people here choose to ignore evidence and just continue to insult anyone who has a different perspective than their own.

 

[QUENTIN]

I also oppose affirmative action Ian, it's a bandaid on a gaping wound. Instead, what we need to do is stop paying for schools via local taxes that favor kids whose parents make more money and punishes children with worse schools, books, facilities, teachers, and education because they were born in poorer neighborhoods.

Nationalize education and pay for every school based on the number of students rather than the wealth of the surrounding neighborhood, demand higher standards of achievement (not just standardized test scores) from students and performance from teachers and pay teachers a competitive wage to help ensure that, and we can do away with affirmative action entirely and let everyone get by on their own hard work because everyone will be given the same opportunity for success.

Unfortunately, affirmative action is a necessity (though it should be based on income, not race... wealthy black students do just as well and poor white students just as poorly) so long as we are handicapping children with shitty education based on where they are born, and minority students are far more likely to be born in areas with terrible schools giving them an unfair disadvantage that has to be made up for somehow.