Separation of Church and State

[g5000]

The British thought it a powerful enough document to go to war over it.

You obviously don't know anything about American history.

"The shot heard round the world" was fired in April 1775.

The DOI was written over a year later. It's a notice to the world the reasons for our leaving the British Empire. It's a list of grievances.

 

[g5000]

I've had that very discussion on here with people on the left and I was given pat explanations as to why it is so difficult for blacks to get IDs: lack of birth certificates; lack of funds to purchase an ID, etc.

Then of course there is the accusation of voter suppression.

Florida GOP Leaders Admit Voter Suppression Was Motive Behind Voter Laws - Kapor Center

The Palm Beach Post revealed this week that former Florida GOP leaders intentionally designed restrictive voter laws to limit votes from Democrats and people of color. Florida voters, as we saw in this year’s election endured long voting lines and other confusion as a result of reduced voting...

www.kaporcenter.org

 

[g5000]

I'm not making this shit up. It has become an issue to the point that a conservative organization (Turning Point, I believe) went out on the streets to ask people of both races if blacks would have a hard time acquiring an ID to vote. Many whites they talked to thought blacks would have some difficulty in this regard but the blacks they talked to were like, "What the fuck? Why would blacks have a hard time getting an ID?"

It was Fox News. They went out on the Manhattan sidewalk right outside their studio and asked passing well-dressed blacks if they had ID.

It was one the most astoundingly stupid things I've ever seen.

 

[g5000]

Jim Crow: Dimwingers
Founded the KKK: Dimwingers
Filibustered Civil Rights Act: Dimwingers
Elected Grand Cyclops of the KKK as Senate Majority Leader: Dimwingers

And every one of them was a right wing Christian terrorist.

.Funny how you tards always fail to point out that fact.

We're Republicans now.

Former KKK leader endorses Trump for president again – and Tucker Carlson for VP​

 

[BS Filter]

You obviously don't know anything about American history.

"The shot heard round the world" was fired in April 1775.

The DOI was written over a year later. It's a notice to the world the reasons for our leaving the British Empire. It's a list of grievances.

And it's a great document that established the USA as a sovereign Nation.

 

[BS Filter]

And every one of them was a right wing Christian terrorist.

.Funny how you tards always fail to point out that fact.

We're Republicans now.

Former KKK leader endorses Trump for president again – and Tucker Carlson for VP​

They were Democrats.

 

[g5000]

And it's a great document that established the USA as a sovereign Nation.

Nope. The war went on for another seven years.

The Treaty of Pairs is what established us as a sovereign nation.

Seriously, dude. You clearly know nothing about American history. This makes you very vulnerable to being manipulated by your propagandists.

 

[BS Filter]

Nope. The war went on for another seven years.

The Treaty of Pairs is what established us as a sovereign nation.

Seriously, dude. You clearly know nothing about American history. This makes you very vulnerable to being manipulated by your propagandists.

Bullshit. DECLARATION....OF...INDEPENDENCE. Read it again and again until you understand what it means. The Treaty of Paris ended the war. Where in hell did you go to school? Tell us why this nation celebrates Independence Day instead of Treaty of Paris Day? Idiot.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

For the same reason any group would.

This is about elderly, not blacks or minorities.

Yeah. They go to their assigned polling place. The poll worker finds their name on the list, has the voter sign it and they are good to go.

Apparently you don't know how voting works either. How does the voter verify that he/she is in fact the person on the list that he/she claims to be?

About the only way someone could just roll up to a random polling place is if

1. They knew the individual they are claiming to be was assigned that polling place.

2. They knew that person would not show up to vote.

3. They are able to sign that person's name convincingly at the polling place.

You can probably guess how often this happens.

You overlook one important distinction: as I asked above, how does the voter verify that he/she is in fact the person on the list?

Yes it is. Why should 150 million people get voter IDs when one person can render them moot with a simple statement?

Screw that.

So, 150 million people should not be required to show ID when they vote?

I think the position was show the proof...that is where Trump's narrative sort of fell apart.

You just supplied the counter argument to your own argument. If a candidate claims the IDs were fraudulent, ask for proof and the narrative falls apart.

Why? What happens if someone comes along later and tries to vote using your name?

A better question would be: what would happen if someone comes along before I get there? Or, what would happen if someone came along pretending to be a registered voter who is dead or moved away?

I am at a loss as to why this simple concept escapes you.

Whether it is suppression or not is subject to debate. Personally I am not so sure, I can see the point from both sides, but I still think it's a waste of time.

I don't think it's voter suppression because picture ID is something most people have anyway. This is why I don't understand the arguments against it.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Some states' Voter ID laws require very specific types of ID.

According to the ACLU, 21 million Americans do not have an ID.


What's more, Voter ID has never stopped the types of voter fraud which occur.

I find it fascinating that people who call themselves conservatives want more government interference in the exercise of our rights.

Especially government interference which achieves NOTHING.

"Government interference"? Elections involve the government directly for cryin' out loud.

It's true that conservatives want less government but they want less government in areas that don't necessarily concern them. This doesn't mean no government.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Florida GOP Leaders Admit Voter Suppression Was Motive Behind Voter Laws - Kapor Center

The Palm Beach Post revealed this week that former Florida GOP leaders intentionally designed restrictive voter laws to limit votes from Democrats and people of color. Florida voters, as we saw in this year’s election endured long voting lines and other confusion as a result of reduced voting...

www.kaporcenter.org

What does this have to do with IDs?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

It was Fox News. They went out on the Manhattan sidewalk right outside their studio and asked passing well-dressed blacks if they had ID.

It was one the most astoundingly stupid things I've ever seen.

That doesn't sound like the video I saw. But anyway, why wouldn't plain dressed blacks have ID?

 

[Nostra]

And every one of them was a right wing Christian terrorist.

.Funny how you tards always fail to point out that fact.

We're Republicans now.

Former KKK leader endorses Trump for president again – and Tucker Carlson for VP​

Sorry, Racist.

You are a member of the racist Dimtard Party. Learn how to deal with it.

 

[Catsnmeters]

This is about elderly, not blacks or minorities.

Some people interviewed were black.

Apparently you don't know how voting works either. How does the voter verify that he/she is in fact the person on the list that he/she claims to be?

They sign their name on the polls.

What happens when someone else arrives and tries to use the same name?

You overlook one important distinction: as I asked above, how does the voter verify that he/she is in fact the person on the list?

By signing the poll sheet.

So, 150 million people should not be required to show ID when they vote?

No. Not in my opinion..

You just supplied the counter argument to your own argument. If a candidate claims the IDs were fraudulent, ask for proof and the narrative falls apart.

Proof of election fraud was already asked for and not provided yet the right still insists it happened.

Proof doesn't matter to the right, only narrative.

A better question would be: what would happen if someone comes along before I get there? Or, what would happen if someone came along pretending to be a registered voter who is dead or moved away?

Then when you did get there and you went to sign your name it would already be signed and you would be like, "what the fuck". You would then verify you are you and the other person would face heavy penalties...which seems like a dumb chance to take for a single vote.

I am at a loss as to why this simple concept escapes you.

Sorry you don't understand.

I don't think it's voter suppression because picture ID is something most people have anyway. This is why I don't understand the arguments against it.

Because some people have difficulty getting IDs.
These people are disproportionately poor and/or minorities.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Some people interviewed were black.

And some were white. And?

They sign their name on the polls.

What happens when someone else arrives and tries to use the same name?

They ask for his ID just as they did with everyone else.

By signing the poll sheet.

You are only asked to sign the poll sheet once they've verified who you are by your ID. That's how they've always done it where I live.

When I arrive, I give my name, present my ID and only then do they have me sign the sheet. Then I'm ready to vote.

No. Not in my opinion..

So why are they asking for my ID when I vote?

Proof of election fraud was already asked for and not provided yet the right still insists it happened.

I'm not talking about the 2020 election and Trump's allegations of fraud, I'm talking about election fraud in general. On that score, below is an article regarding the 2016 election where nineteen illegal aliens were charged with illegal voting:

19 aliens charged with voter fraud in North Carolina following ICE investigation

Proof doesn't matter to the right, only narrative.

The left is just as guilty of pushing false narratives as the right. If you don't see that then you are hopelessly delusional and biased.

Then when you did get there and you went to sign your name it would already be signed and you would be like, "what the fuck". You would then verify you are you and the other person would face heavy penalties...which seems like a dumb chance to take for a single vote.

How are they going to impose heavy penalties on the fraudster if they have no idea who he is? They just found out he's not me but that doesn't tell them who he is.

Because some people have difficulty getting IDs.

Why?

These people are disproportionately poor and/or minorities.

Just how much do you think it costs to get an ID? Where do you get this idea that one has to be rich or well off to afford ten, fifteen dollars for an ID?

 

[Catsnmeters]

And some were white. And?

Not sure. I answered the question about why blacks may have a hard time getting ID. At least one example was included in the article.

What's the problem?

They ask for his ID just as they did with everyone else.


You are only asked to sign the poll sheet once they've verified who you are by your ID. That's how they've always done it where I live.

Not every state or district does it the same as there you live. Some polling stations don't require ID. Whether they ID or not, they will notices duplicate voters.

When I arrive, I give my name, present my ID and only then do they have me sign the sheet. Then I'm ready to vote.

Cool.

So why are they asking for my ID when I vote?

Because that is how they chose to hold their elections.

I'm not talking about the 2020 election and Trump's allegations of fraud, I'm talking about election fraud in general. On that score, below is an article regarding the 2016 election where nineteen illegal aliens were charged with illegal voting:

19 aliens charged with voter fraud in North Carolina following ICE investigation

Cool, they got caught. That is .000005 of the population who won't make that mistake again.

Did they have IDs?

The left is just as guilty of pushing false narratives as the right. If you don't see that then you are hopelessly delusional and biased.

I can't think of any more damaging then claiming the election was rigged subsequently undermining our democratic process for potentially decades.

Can you?

How are they going to impose heavy penalties on the fraudster if they have no idea who he is? They just found out he's not me but that doesn't tell them who he is.

Cameras? Not sure though. The most important thing is their vote didn't count.

Why?


Just how much do you think it costs to get an ID? Where do you get this idea that one has to be rich or well off to afford ten, fifteen dollars for an ID?

Not sure what it costs but I am sure it pretty cheap. That doesn't change the fact that many would have a hard time getting an ID.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Not sure. I answered the question about why blacks may have a hard time getting ID. At least one example was included in the article.

What's the problem?

The problem is the article was not about blacks, it was about the elderly. But the liberal narrative is that requiring ID is voter suppression of minorities, which covers an entire half to two thirds of our population.

Not every state or district does it the same as there you live. Some polling stations don't require ID. Whether they ID or not, they will notices duplicate voters.

Then again, they might not. Signatures can be forged.

Because that is how they chose to hold their elections.

Right, to further maintain election integrity.

Cool, they got caught. That is .000005 of the population who won't make that mistake again.

How many did not get caught?

Did they have IDs?

I don't know. The point is that election fraud is real. And just because some get caught does not mean they all are.

I can't think of any more damaging then claiming the election was rigged subsequently undermining our democratic process for potentially decades.

Can you?

I can't think of anything more damaging than hounding a duly elected president for four years and trying to impeach him twice.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the allegations of election fraud by Trump and his supporters came about precisely because of the way Democrats dogged him for four years. The concept of election fraud germinated among Trump supporters and Republicans long before the election even took place. The reason for this was that these people became convinced that Democrats would do anything and everything to get Trump out of office. That was made clear by their actions.

If the integrity of the election process is in doubt, it started there with Democrats and their treatment of Trump. They revealed over the course of four years that the integrity of elections and even the integrity and rights of voters themselves was secondary to their personal dislike of the man and the party agenda.

The enduring question in the minds of many Republicans was: What the fuck is the point of an election if the other party is just going to spend his entire term trying to get him out and furthermore, make pariahs out of his supporters?

And that's another aspect of this issue: the treatment and vilification of Trump supporters. For four years we heard "Fuck Trump and those who voted for him. This is all your fault.". If it had stopped with Trump himself, that would be one thing. But they took it a step further and made millions of people out to be racist, wretched outcasts.

No, the blame and guilt for undermining our election process rests just as squarely on Democrat shoulders when they relentlessly hounded the president and maligned those who voted for him.

Cameras?

What if there are no cameras?

Not sure though. The most important thing is their vote didn't count.

Because they looked at my ID.

Not sure what it costs but I am sure it pretty cheap. That doesn't change the fact that many would have a hard time getting an ID.

Why? I've asked this twice now and you still haven't given an explanation.

 

[Catsnmeters]

The problem is the article was not about blacks, it was about the elderly. But the liberal narrative is that requiring ID is voter suppression of minorities, which covers an entire half to two thirds of our population.

I was tasked with providing a reason why blacks might have a hard time getting voter IDs. The article had at least one black voter who stated why it was difficult for her. I would imagine the difficulties are pretty common among all races but regardless,the article satisfied the request.

Then again, they might not. Signatures can be forged.

So can voter IDs.

Right, to further maintain election integrity.

We are unable to have election integrity because some sore loser will always make up a lie as to some fraud they can't prove.

How many did not get caught?

I don't know. Between 0 and about 8 million probably.

I don't know. The point is that election fraud is real. And just because some get caught does not mean they all are.

Of course election fraud really exists.

Are you actually implying the federal government should implement voter ID laws for crimes they can't prove exist? That seems like government over reach to me.

Back before the pre Trump election lies/ruin democracy tour, Kobach took several of these types of cases to court and was repeatedly embarrassed. The judges always asked the same questions.

1. Prove the fraud exists.

2. Prove voter ID would fix it.

He and others like him never could.

Hell, Trump even assigned Kobach to find all these fraud examples he was lying about. What happened? Crickets while the committee was quietly disbanded a few months later.

Now you are saying we should require ID anyhow?

So if the government said aliens were infiltrating society and the only way to prove people were from earth is to put chips in their heads when they are born, and then Americans asked the government to prove it and they couldn't, would you still be first in line?

Obviously a far fetched scenario but just wanted to make a point.

I can't think of anything more damaging than hounding a duly elected president for four years and trying to impeach him twice.

I know what is more damaging. Lying about election fraud.

Dems didn't try to impeach him, they did actually impeach him. Based on a constitutional process. How is that damaging?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the allegations of election fraud by Trump and his supporters came about precisely because of the way Democrats dogged him for four years. The concept of election fraud germinated among Trump supporters and Republicans long before the election even took place. The reason for this was that these people became convinced that Democrats would do anything and everything to get Trump out of office. That was made clear by their actions.

So your saying Trump lied about election fraud as revenge for being "dogged"? That is one of the most ludicrous and anti American things I have ever heard.

Trump went through 2 impeachment trials for legitimate reasons. Big deal. What Repubs have done to Obama and especially Hillary makes Trump's issues but a spec on the sun. Good grief.

If the integrity of the election process is in doubt, it started there with Democrats and their treatment of Trump. They revealed over the course of four years that the integrity of elections and even the integrity and rights of voters themselves was secondary to their personal dislike of the man and the party agenda.

Democrats didn't do this, Republicans did.

The enduring question in the minds of many Republicans was: What the fuck is the point of an election if the other party is just going to spend his entire term trying to get him out and furthermore, make pariahs out of his supporters?

Following legitimate constitutional processes is a poor excuse to sabotage our democracy.

And that's another aspect of this issue: the treatment and vilification of Trump supporters. For four years we heard "Fuck Trump and those who voted for him. This is all your fault.". If it had stopped with Trump himself, that would be one thing. But they took it a step further and made millions of people out to be racist, wretched outcasts.

Kind of like how all Dems are transgender, child grooming, pedophiles who don't know which bathroom is which?

Please with the victim routine.

No, the blame and guilt for undermining our election process rests just as squarely on Democrat shoulders when they relentlessly hounded the president and maligned those who voted for him.

I disagree. It rests on Trump and his enablers.

What if there are no cameras?


Because they looked at my ID.

What if your id is fake? Kids in highschool could make voter IDs for 10 bucks.

Like I said, if Trump supporters are going to believe in Italian servers and Jewish space lasers changing votes...pallets of fake voter IDs from china would be one of the more reasonable lies about voter fraud.

Why? I've asked this twice now and you still haven't given an explanation.

Then the voter who had to risk years in jail on...

1. Know the name of a voter at a particular poll.

2. Know the real person wouldn't show up.

3. Know the signature, relatively closely.

Does it make sense that many people would take this chance and be jailed and fined for 1000s of dollars?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I was tasked with providing a reason why blacks might have a hard time getting voter IDs. The article had at least one black voter who stated why it was difficult for her. I would imagine the difficulties are pretty common among all races but regardless,the article satisfied the request.

If her reasons were pretty much the same as everyone else's then it's irrelevant.

So can voter IDs.

Exactly. This is why where I live there are at least three layers of security to ensure election integrity: 1.) Present voter registration card to verify I am allowed to vote in that district or at that particular polling station. 2.) Present picture ID in the form of a driver's license or some such to verify that the person standing before them is in fact Ghost of a Rider. 3.) Sign the register so my signature is on file to compare to past signatures.

We are unable to have election integrity because some sore loser will always make up a lie as to some fraud they can't prove.

Wrong. Election integrity is not degraded just because someone questions it.

Like you said, ask for proof and the narrative falls apart. The integrity of the election never changed.

Of course election fraud really exists.

Are you actually implying the federal government should implement voter ID laws for crimes they can't prove exist? That seems like government over reach to me.

1.) How is it government overreach to try to deter fraud in government elections?

2.) I gave you a link showing that it has been proven to exist.

3.) You just said yourself there is election fraud for Christ's sake.

Back before the pre Trump election lies/ruin democracy tour, Kobach took several of these types of cases to court and was repeatedly embarrassed. The judges always asked the same questions.

1. Prove the fraud exists.

2. Prove voter ID would fix it.

He and others like him never could.

That's because voter ID isn't going to "fix" anything. They were idiots to ask for proof and they were idiots to try.

It is, however, one more layer of security that would make it that much harder to commit fraud.

No one is touting voter ID as the end all, be all of eliminating voter fraud and if you think that's what they're saying then you have conflated the narrative beyond anything remotely what was actually said about it.

Hell, Trump even assigned Kobach to find all these fraud examples he was lying about. What happened? Crickets while the committee was quietly disbanded a few months later.

Now you are saying we should require ID anyhow?

So if the government said aliens were infiltrating society and the only way to prove people were from earth is to put chips in their heads when they are born, and then Americans asked the government to prove it and they couldn't, would you still be first in line?

You're conflating again. When I say "voter ID", I don't mean an ID specifically for voting. A driver's license or a passport should suffice. Most people have some form of identification on them at any time anyway. It's a simple matter of asking to see the ID they have on them anyway.

For fuck's sake, we already have to provide ID to buy liquor, cigarettes, automobiles, firearms, apply for food stamps, take a flight, get married and who knows what else. Why is this a problem for you?

I know what is more damaging. Lying about election fraud.

He didn't lie, he actually believed it. He may or may not have been wrong, but he didn't lie.

Dems didn't try to impeach him, they did actually impeach him. Based on a constitutional process. How is that damaging?

Because the impeachment was total bullshit. Both times. And both times they failed to make their case.

So your saying Trump lied about election fraud as revenge for being "dogged"? That is one of the most ludicrous and anti American things I have ever heard.

It's ludicrous to you because it's not what I said you idiot. Pay attention.

No, it was not revenge and I didn't say or imply any such thing. I said that Trump and his supporters became convinced that Democrats - based on their actions up to that point - would do anything to get Trump out of office. So when he lost the election he assumed Democrats committed some sort of fraud. And the way the election transpired didn't help matters.

This is not to say he was right, but Democrats gave him plenty of reasons to think they would.

Trump went through 2 impeachment trials for legitimate reasons. Big deal.

Bullshit. They were not legitimate at all and were only based on their personal feelings. The fact that both efforts failed should tell you that, at the very least, they didn't have a case.

What Repubs have done to Obama and especially Hillary makes Trump's issues but a spec on the sun. Good grief.

What did Republicans do to Obama and Hilary?

Democrats didn't do this, Republicans did.

Oh yes, Democrats are just as guilty.

The undermining of the confidence in our election process took two forms. On the one hand we have rampant allegations of election fraud from Republicans and on the other hand we have Democrats who, though they never claimed election fraud on a wide scale; what they did do was proceed to disrespect the sanctity of the individual American's right to vote however they wish by vilifying an entire voting bloc and basically blaming them for electing what they saw as a racist tyrant. As a result, an entire political party is now viewed as racist.

On top of all this, we have a president who campaigned on the promise of uniting the country and then when elected, proceeded to do the exact opposite. Biden has done nothing but criticize the other party since he got into office and his attitude towards them can be summed up thus: Republican politicians and republican voters are in the way.

Following legitimate constitutional processes is a poor excuse to sabotage our democracy.

Personal feelings are a poor excuse for sabotaging a presidency.

Kind of like how all Dems are transgender, child grooming, pedophiles who don't know which bathroom is which?

Please with the victim routine.

I wouldn't know as this is not my mantra and I've never said anything along these lines.

So don't give me bullshit about my victim routine with your own victim routine based on shit I never said

I disagree. It rests on Trump and his enablers.

No doubt you think so. But Democrats behaved horribly while Trump was in office and their hypocrisy was through the roof.

What if your id is fake? Kids in highschool could make voter IDs for 10 bucks.

So, what, liquor store clerks should no longer ask for ID from suspected minors because it might be fake anyway? What kind of fucked up logic is that?

Like I said, if Trump supporters are going to believe in Italian servers and Jewish space lasers changing votes...pallets of fake voter IDs from china would be one of the more reasonable lies about voter fraud.

What does requiring voter ID have to do with Trump supporters?

Then the voter who had to risk years in jail on...

1. Know the name of a voter at a particular poll.

2. Know the real person wouldn't show up.

3. Know the signature, relatively closely.

Does it make sense that many people would take this chance and be jailed and fined for 1000s of dollars?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe you should ask the nineteen illegal aliens that got caught.

 

[Catsnmeters]

If her reasons were pretty much the same as everyone else's then it's irrelevant.

I disagree. Had a shown an article with only black people sharing their reasons would you be naive enough to believe their situation is racially unique?

Exactly. This is why where I live there are at least three layers of security to ensure election integrity: 1.) Present voter registration card to verify I am allowed to vote in that district or at that particular polling station. 2.) Present picture ID in the form of a driver's license or some such to verify that the person standing before them is in fact Ghost of a Rider. 3.) Sign the register so my signature is on file to compare to past signatures.

I understand how it works where you live. That isn't in contention. My point is I don't believe showing an ID makes any appreciable difference.

Wrong. Election integrity is not degraded just because someone questions it.

How can you claim that? Trump has been on his "I was cheated" rampage for months. An attempted insurrection occurred at the capital based primarily on the fact that Trump and his cadre of psychophants have lied about the election. 30 percent of Americans think the election was stolen. It is literally killing our democratic process and you claim their is no harm? Unreal.

Like you said, ask for proof and the narrative falls apart. The integrity of the election never changed.


1.) How is it government overreach to try to deter fraud in government elections?

Because if you can't prove the fraud exists and can't prove IDs would stop it at any appreciable level, then the government has no right to create laws combatting it. As I pointed out, the fed could make laws based on anything if this were true because they could just make a claim and not to prove it and people like you would trust them and jump on board evidently.

2.) I gave you a link showing that it has been proven to exist.

Yes. It is exists. It has always existed. It will always exist in the future even if everyone gets IDs.

The point is why force 150 million people to get IDs to stop a tiny fraction of the fraud?

And why force people to get IDs when again; the loser will just claim the IDs are fake.

I mean really, have you not been paying attention? Claiming election fraud is not some isolated Republican party talking point, it is now a feature.

3.) You just said yourself there is election fraud for Christ's sake.

Of course their is, just not enough for it to matter on any appreciable level.

That's because voter ID isn't going to "fix" anything. They were idiots to ask for proof and they were idiots to try.

It is, however, one more layer of security that would make it that much harder to commit fraud.

So would planting computer chips in our hands. That would make fraud super hard. You want to do that?

No one is touting voter ID as the end all, be all of eliminating voter fraud and if you think that's what they're saying then you have conflated the narrative beyond anything remotely what was actually said about it.

I would hope not because it certainly wouldn't stop all fraud.

You're conflating again. When I say "voter ID", I don't mean an ID specifically for voting. A driver's license or a passport should suffice. Most people have some form of identification on them at any time anyway. It's a simple matter of asking to see the ID they have on them anyway.

Again, many people don't have IDs.

For fuck's sake, we already have to provide ID to buy liquor, cigarettes, automobiles, firearms, apply for food stamps, take a flight, get married and who knows what else. Why is this a problem for you?

False equivalences.

He didn't lie, he actually believed it. He may or may not have been wrong, but he didn't lie.

He has lied. It was proven he knew things were being made up. That is why he told Barr (loosely quoting) to just claim the election was fraudulent and let my supporters in Congress handle the rest.

He knew it was bullshit.

Because the impeachment was total bullshit. Both times. And both times they failed to make their case.

I disagree. Asking a foreign president to "just announce" you are investigating Biden is a disgrace. You can pretend he was just wanting justice but a small bit of logic in the back of your head has to know he was trying to damage Biden's election bid.

Certainly fermenting an insurection is an impeachable offense right? He lied about the election fraud, had his people gathered in DC, new some were armed and sent them to the Capital. He is essentially a traitor to his own office.

It's ludicrous to you because it's not what I said you idiot. Pay attention.

No, it was not revenge and I didn't say or imply any such thing. I said that Trump and his supporters became convinced that Democrats - based on their actions up to that point - would do anything to get Trump out of office. So when he lost the election he assumed Democrats committed some sort of fraud. And the way the election transpired didn't help matters.

"Assuming" voter fraud is anti American.

This is not to say he was right, but Democrats gave him plenty of reasons to think they would.

Impeachments are not a reason to assume and perpetuate false fraud.

Bullshit. They were not legitimate at all and were only based on their personal feelings. The fact that both efforts failed should tell you that, at the very least, they didn't have a case.

Yes they were.

What did Republicans do to Obama and Hilary?

Email investigations, Benghazi investigations x8, fast and furious investigation, IRS investigation, "our biggest priority is to make Obama a one term president", more email investigations, birth certificates, Muslim claims, Clinton foundation, tan suits, Dijon mustard, jade helm, murder count list, pizza basements, pedos, groomers, etc etc...a constant campaign of investigations, personal attacks and conspiracy theories.

Oh yes, Democrats are just as guilty.

The undermining of the confidence in our election process took two forms. On the one hand we have rampant allegations of election fraud from Republicans and on the other hand we have Democrats who, though they never claimed election fraud on a wide scale; what they did do was proceed to disrespect the sanctity of the individual American's right to vote however they wish by vilifying an entire voting bloc and basically blaming them for electing what they saw as a racist tyrant. As a result, an entire political party is now viewed as racist.

Not to be rude, but all I have to say is wahh fucking wahh. Trump is abrasive. He attacks and insults everyone whom he doesn't like. This pisses people off and they attack back. Presidents need to have thick skins, not thin skinned emotional children who attacks our institutions to extract revenge.

On top of all this, we have a president who campaigned on the promise of uniting the country and then when elected, proceeded to do the exact opposite. Biden has done nothing but criticize the other party since he got into office and his attitude towards them can be summed up thus: Republican politicians and republican voters are in the way.

He gave a speech and called out election deniers and domestic terrorists. He emphasized no political violence is acceptable.

If you are an election denier and or a domestic terrorist then too freaking bad. You deserve to be called out.

Personal feelings are a poor excuse for sabotaging a presidency.

Agreed.

I wouldn't know as this is not my mantra and I've never said anything along these lines.

So don't give me bullshit about my victim routine with your own victim routine based on shit I never said


No doubt you think so. But Democrats behaved horribly while Trump was in office and their hypocrisy was through the roof.

Trump behaved badly. He called people names constantly, accused people of crimes that didn't happen, and sold out our own government on the global stage.

So, what, liquor store clerks should no longer ask for ID from suspected minors because it might be fake anyway? What kind of fucked up logic is that?

I have much less concern that Trump or someone like him will declare IDs used to buy alcohol are fake.

What does requiring voter ID have to do with Trump supporters?

Because by and large Trump supporters will buy any election fraud story they are provided, regardless of how rediculous. Bamboo threads anyone?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe you should ask the nineteen illegal aliens that got caught.

They got caught being the key phrase.

Do you know if they had IDs?