Zone1 Satan

[Pete7469]

So in other words you have made up your own god. Being “good” on its own isn’t going to get anyone into heaven, this is because no one can be good enough to meet those standards. It would mean you have to live a completely sinless life, and not even think in a sinful way. Even mother Teresa cannot get into Heaven on her own, she would still need the mercy of God and thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus. The wages of sin is death, not good deeds. So you can choose to take that death yourself in hell, or accept that Jesus already died for you and accept that fact.

I'm past that.

I just don't follow anyone else's dogma.

 

[Votto]

The entire Christian religion is built around God is love and Satan is evil.

The entire religion is built around the concept of love as the Bible says God is love, which is the key to understanding.

What is love? What is evil?

Any ideas?

 

[Votto]

As with all mythology, it was written by people trying to explain things far too complicated to understand.

I know there is a God, I'm confident He came to earth as Jesus to straighten us out, but I seriously don't believe He gives an angel's ass what belief system is followed as long as the individual seeks to be GOOD. There are those who clearly seek to do evil shit, and those motivated by more than simple self preservation who endeavor to thwart them.

I once heard a theologian say that the hardest thing for a person of faith to explain is, why is there suffering on earth? But then he added, the atheist has it far worse as they have to explain everything else.

You are correct, life is complicated, so to assume you will understand everything is a mistake to begin with, because we are not capable of understanding everything. But that does not preclude us from trying and making sense of a lot of things, which is why threads like this are good. However, that is why faith is so important when it comes to God, because only he is capable of understanding everything when we are not. There will always be things we do not understand nor ever will, so at such times, you either tap into a God that does in faith or will suffer on earth as a result as you refuse to place your faith in God.

Put the Bible aside for a moment, any person worth their salt struggles with the goodness of God that may exist and presence of suffering in this current world. And if they say otherwise, they are a liar.

 

[Blues Man]

So the only punishment Satan ever got from God, was banishment. Which is weird because God created him and knew this would happen.. anyway..
There is no other punishment for Satan, if you even call that a punishment.
But this loving God will punish his creation, that he supposedly loves, while not punishing Satan? He punished the tempted, not the tempter...
Doesnt that seem a bit messed up to you?
Can anyone explain this?

Of course they can't.

 

[Blues Man]

As with all mythology, it was written by people trying to explain things far too complicated to understand.

I know there is a God, I'm confident He came to earth as Jesus to straighten us out, but I seriously don't believe He gives an angel's ass what belief system is followed as long as the individual seeks to be GOOD. There are those who clearly seek to do evil shit, and those motivated by more than simple self preservation who endeavor to thwart them.

Isn't your statement that you KNOW there is a god just you trying to explain things you don't understand?

Good cannot exist without evil just as the north side of a mountain cannot exist without the south side.

When you name the good you create the bad by necessity.

When you cling to these concepts you give them power.

 

[Blues Man]

I once heard a theologian say that the hardest thing for a person of faith to explain is, why is there suffering on earth? But then he added, the atheist has it far worse as they have to explain everything else.

You are correct, life is complicated, so to assume you will understand everything is a mistake to begin with, because we are not capable of understanding everything. But that does not preclude us from trying and making sense of a lot of things, which is why threads like this are good. However, that is why faith is so important when it comes to God, because only he is capable of understanding everything when we are not. There will always be things we do not understand nor ever will, so at such times, you either tap into a God that does in faith or will suffer on earth as a result as you refuse to place your faith in God.

Put the Bible aside for a moment, any person worth their salt struggles with the goodness of God that may exist and presence of suffering in this current world. And if they say otherwise, they are a liar.

But there is no need to explain everything.

That need is the human behavior of seeking a causal agent. That seeking of an agent gave rise to the meme of religion

 

[Votto]

But there is no need to explain everything.

That need is the human behavior of seeking a causal agent. That seeking of an agent gave rise to the meme of religion

What does this even mean? We don't need to explain things which is why religion was created?

Sounds pretty contradictory to me.

 

[Blues Man]

What does this even mean? We don't need to explain things which is why religion was created?

Sounds pretty contradictory to me.

Read it again.

There are 2 separate idea in that post.

We do not have to explain everything in order to give meaning to anything.

Humans have a tendency to look for causal agents that is based in evolution.

What made that noise? Is it an animal that will eat me?

We have taken that evolutionary behavior and applied it to things that have nothing to do with survival.

 

[Moonglow]

Without Lucifer walking the Earth, then man wouldnt have "CHOICE".

How is it that the EVIL of the leftists allow murderers, child molesters and rapists live till their end of times, but then want innocent unborn and born babies executed because Mommy said so?

Prove only Democrats have abortions.

 

[Votto]

Read it again.

There are 2 separate idea in that post.

We do not have to explain everything in order to give meaning to anything.

Humans have a tendency to look for causal agents that is based in evolution.

What made that noise? Is it an animal that will eat me?

We have taken that evolutionary behavior and applied it to things that have nothing to do with survival.

No, as a human being you must assess meaning to your life, and if you don't, if you believe you have no meaning, you are left feeling empty and perhaps suicidal.

That is the fun of being human.

I don't buy the Spock like existence of feeling nothing and thinking nothing many if Far Eastern religions seek.

If nothing else, their meaning is life is to find no meaning and feel nothing.

I can do drugs for that.

 

[Meriweather]

So the only punishment Satan ever got from God, was banishment. Which is weird because God created him and knew this would happen.. anyway..
There is no other punishment for Satan, if you even call that a punishment.
But this loving God will punish his creation, that he supposedly loves, while not punishing Satan? He punished the tempted, not the tempter...
Doesnt that seem a bit messed up to you?
Can anyone explain this?

Jesus said the devil was a murderer from way back. The word(s) for devil/demon is different from Satan or ha Satan. Satan was considered chief of the Seraphim, head of the order of virtues. His name means "Adversary" or "Tester" with the more modern connotation that he is/was more like a prosecuting attorney. He tempts/tests those to see how steadfast they are in living a life of virtue.

When Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan", it was because Peter was trying to argue Jesus out of going to Jerusalem and into danger.

Somehow Devil, Lucifer, and Satan became the same being, especially in non-Biblical fiction. In the Bible, they are all quite different.

 

[Blues Man]

No, as a human being you must assess meaning to your life, and if you don't, if you believe you have no meaning, you are left feeling empty and perhaps suicidal.

That is the fun of being human.

I don't buy the Spock like existence of feeling nothing and thinking nothing many if Far Eastern religions seek.

If nothing else, their meaning is life is to find no meaning and feel nothing.

I can do drugs for that.

Defining your own meaning of life isn't the same as knowing everything. It's not an appeal t some all knowing power. Nor is it assigning causal agents to everything.

As Victor Frankl said

The meaning of life is to find meaning in life.

 

[Votto]

So the only punishment Satan ever got from God, was banishment. Which is weird because God created him and knew this would happen.. anyway..
There is no other punishment for Satan, if you even call that a punishment.
But this loving God will punish his creation, that he supposedly loves, while not punishing Satan? He punished the tempted, not the tempter...
Doesnt that seem a bit messed up to you?
Can anyone explain this?

I will try and take a stab at this

1. Satan's punishment was not just banishment, it is the Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelation where Satan's existence will conclude for all eternity someday.

Revelations 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

2. Satan is not immediately cast into the Lake of Fire, but why? The Bible simply does not say, so we can only speculate.

Is earth the only medium his creation can exist? Are there rules, for example, God puts in place minimizing access his creation has to the rest of the universe? Was Lucifer given access to earth prior for a certain length of time before the fall that God is still honoring? Or is there a greater plan here to demonstrate the power of God, allowing lowly man to eventually take dominion over satan through God's power even though man was made a little lower than the angels?

Don't know.

 

[Votto]

God has ordered genocide ad nauseum, including children. Killed animals. Burned cities. Flooded the planet..
Satan has done what? Tempted someone to cheat on their wife? Tempted someone to kill another?
Who is really the bad guy here guy here?

The real issue is, why is there suffering if God is all knowing and all powerful?

To begin with, it makes no sense to me thinking there is no God. There are two main issues, why does the material universe exist, and why does life exist?

The universe is fine tuned, so much so it is absurd to think it happened on its own.

The Argument From Cosmic Fine Tuning

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crossexamined.org

And to think that life just came about on its own is absurd is almost more absurd to me, since we see life nowhere else in the universe.



To think that a God need not be all powerful to create and maintain such order is equally absurd to me, because that is what it would take to accomplish all this and still be fine tuned for the rest of eternity.

So, why is their suffering? Is God a God of love like the Bible says? The Bible also says that man is made in the image of God, but what does that mean? Whatever it means, there is one truth here and that is whatever we personally create is a reflection of us. When we look at a car made, for example, it reflects our intelligence level, our needs, are desires, and what matters most to us. Looking at human beings, what makes us tick? Without love, our lives are empty and meaningless, so it would logically be assumed that the creator of human beings had a similar need and want. That is why the idea of a God creating everything and walking away indifferently also makes no sense to me because that is not how we are wired.

But what is love? We would like to think that there should be no downside to love, it should all be good, however, to have a loving mutual relationship, two parties are required to have the ability to love or reject the other. There is no love in forcing others to love you back or it is not love. But this allows for pain and suffering, at least for one or both parties. Sin is simply the rejection of the love of God which inevitably throws a wrench into the fine-tuned universe. Why does God allow this? If you were "all powerful" and knew everything, what relevance would creation have to you if you controlled all of it unless you enjoy playing tic tac toe with yourself all day. Allowing a sliver of your power to be surrendered would most likely attract all your attention, even though the power you are surrendering is negligible in the grand scheme of things, and regardless of how negligible those are that you gave such power.

In the Garden of Eden, we see man's fall into sin. Most read through the story without giving it much thought, thinking it to be stupid. But when reading deeper into the story, we see some profound points being made.

Adam and Eve were instructed not to partake of the fruit of one particular tree. That was it. God put it there as a way for them to accept or reject him. But the tree is called something interesting. It is called the tree of knowledge. Most overlook this point which is key because I think the meaning here is that knowledge without wisdom brings death. However, most think that knowledge is harmless. Tell that to Oppenheimer who had the knowledge to create the A-bomb and later quoted as saying, "I have become death". Tell that to those who fear climate change because man had the knowledge to manipulate fossil fuels for their convenience. Tell that to those who fear China releasing a bio terror weapon like Covid again, etc. The most dangerous people on the planet are those who have the more knowledge than wisdom. Those with knowledge can destroy the earth a thousand times over, as where stupid apes in the jungle never will.

I say all this to answer our question because when we read God judging men in Sodom, for example, we have trouble with him deciding to completely destroy them. Abraham also had trouble with it.

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[b] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[c] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.

29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Sodom was a place were men ganged raped strangers who entered it, as we see in Genesis. There is a level of wickedness that needs to be exterminated. For example, Russians entering the Nazi death camps simply started hanging people who ran it. What is to say or ask them? There is nothing really to say, but only one thing to do which is exactly what they did, they hung them all on the spot. And perhaps the Nazi regime is our best example of the level of wickedness that simply needs to be eradicated. Mercy and grace has run out on them. At the same time, if all mercy and grace is gone for every sinner, we all die instantly. But if left to their own devices, such evil societies, like Sodom or the Nazi regime would ultimately lead to the destruction of us all if left unchecked.

But it can't continue forever, and that is why I think hell was created. It was created for those who cannot deviate from sin and destruction, for whatever reason. Those who insist on suffering and sin, i.e. the rejection of God who runs the place, will not forever be allowed to impose themselves on the rest of creation to cause them to suffer as well.

 

[Dadoalex]

So the only punishment Satan ever got from God, was banishment. Which is weird because God created him and knew this would happen.. anyway..
There is no other punishment for Satan, if you even call that a punishment.
But this loving God will punish his creation, that he supposedly loves, while not punishing Satan? He punished the tempted, not the tempter...
Doesnt that seem a bit messed up to you?
Can anyone explain this?

Yeah.

God is a dick.
I mean that seriously.
Read the Old Testament.
Nearly every page is filled with God doing dick things.

Heck, he may have banished Sata for telling God "don't be such a dick."

 

[Dadoalex]

Without Lucifer walking the Earth, then man wouldnt have "CHOICE".

How is it that the EVIL of the leftists allow murderers, child molesters and rapists live till their end of times, but then want innocent unborn and born babies executed because Mommy said so?

If god doesn't want abortion why...

Did God allow abortion to be invented
Does god allow abortion to continue?

Cause god is nothing but a fantasy with all the powers of Mickey Mouse.

 

[Dadoalex]

As with all mythology, it was written by people trying to explain things far too complicated to understand.

I know there is a God, I'm confident He came to earth as Jesus to straighten us out, but I seriously don't believe He gives an angel's ass what belief system is followed as long as the individual seeks to be GOOD. There are those who clearly seek to do evil shit, and those motivated by more than simple self preservation who endeavor to thwart them.

If god is all powerful...

Why send Jesus to "straighten us out"
Why not just wave his hand and turn everyone into mindless zombies?

Seems god has less power than Netflix.

 

[Votto]

Yeah.

God is a dick.
I mean that seriously.
Read the Old Testament.
Nearly every page is filled with God doing dick things.

Heck, he may have banished Sata for telling God "don't be such a dick."

God only unleashed his anger on the wicked.

Do you agree with the teaching an eye for an eye?

 

[Dadoalex]

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we believe that the intelligence of man has always existed. It was not created or made, neither indeed can be. We also believe that the elements in the universe are also self-existent.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29,33
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Through the process of procreation through an immortal being who is known as God the Father, the inseparable union of intelligence and element have been formed into an immortal spirit that can never be annihilated. All of our spirits are immortal and can never be annihilated. Once a being is resurrected, his physical body will become immortal can never be destroyed. Thus God's creations can never be completely destroyed. God created all things spiritually before he created them naturally upon the earth.

Moses 3:4-5
4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Our spirits are immortal and upon all mankind's resurrection our bodies will also become immortal to never die again. So if God created us to eventually be immortal, both spirit and body, then what punishment other than banishment from heaven would you expect? As D&C 93:33 above states, spirit and element inseparably connected is capable of receiving a fullness of joy. In our premortal existence as the spirit children of God the Father, our spirits were formed by bringing together self-existing spirit matter with self-existing intelligence to form our immortal spirits in the very image of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Our spirits are the very literal immortal offspring of God the Father.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The second death is a banishment of a spirit to a kingdom or world without glory. It is also known as Outer Darkness or Perdition. It has been likened to a lake of fire and brimstone where worm never dieth. This is the punishment of Satan and his angels and all those who give themselves over to the devil in this life. It is the ultimate punishment of the wicked and is the worst possible punishment. All others will find themselves in a kingdom of glory. Those who choose righteousness and truth will go to the highest of kingdoms where God himself resides known as the kingdom of heaven or the Celestial Kingdom.

So basically, most all of us will not suffer the same damnation as Satan and his angels who rebelled against God in the War in Heaven. They will go to kingdoms of glory depending on how they fair in the day of judgement. (see Doctrine and Covenants 76)

OK here's the real and honest truth...

MAN CREATED GOD.

 

[Votto]

If god is all powerful...

Why send Jesus to "straighten us out"
Why not just wave his hand and turn everyone into mindless zombies?

Seems god has less power than Netflix.

Zombies is what man wants. Man just wants slave labor to do his bidding as man cares nothing about them

We have example after example of this, but then comes along a man like Moses who comes to set them free.