Russell Wilson vs. Peyton Manning - Can Wilson Best Manning's Legacy?

[Manonthestreet]

Of course he didnt run...........leveled same charge against Favre when Vikings lost last game he played........they dont run, to expect them to suddenly be what they aren't is ridiculous. Both were bangd up at the time too.

 

[Treeshepherd]

I have to admit the title of the thread seems ludicrous. But humor me for a moment. First I have to say that Manning is among the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I think that had he won another Super Bowl he would be atop the conversation for the best ever. But nine times he has gone "one and done" in the playoffs against single Super Bowl victory. I don't think there is any argument that Peyton Manning is probably the best regular season quarterback to play the game, but can anyone even try to argue anymore that he can't win the big game on a consistent basis? Personally, my feeling is "pressure Manning = win the game". That's what Seattle did in the Super Bowl last year. My conclusion is that if Manning has protection he is almost unbeatable, BUT put shoulder pads into Manning and he will crumble like a cheap paper napkin. Can THAT be considered the best ever?

I think in some ways Manning best quality is the biggest detriment to his legacy. Take any season in the NFL and make a comparison. Track the win/loss records of teams when their quarterback passes for 300 yards against when they have 30 or more carries as a team. I have done this countless times and what you will find is that when a quarterback throws for 300 yards the team wins about 35% of the time. When a team runs 30 times they win about 65% of the time. Despite the love of passing by NFL fans the statistics are clear that passing makes headlines but rushing wins games. But why would anyone try and run when you have Peyton Manning throwing the ball? The numbers say "run" but Manning's abilities demand a passing attack even though it is a strategy that fails more than it succeeds.

Think of some great quarterbacks; Dan Marino (never had a running game and never won a title), John Elway (never won a title until he had Terrell Davis running the ball)...Terry Bradshaw had Franco Harris. Joe Montana had Roger Craig, Jim Kelly (although they didn't win a title) had Thurmond Thomas....and as a segue....Russell Wilson has Marshawn Lynch.

Now when it is pointed out that Wilson is 5-1 in career playoff games a lot of people will say "yeah but he has Lynch and a great defense". Well...guess what....so did almost every other quarterback that won titles. In fact quarterbacks who won titles without a running game or a defense (or both) are few and far in between. But here's what intrigues me. According to STATS Inc...the quarterback with the best quarterback rating in the playoffs in NFL history is not Manning, nor Marino, nor Elway, Fouts, Montana, or Young.....it's Russell Wilson at 109.6. The second best is Bart Starr at 104.8. Is this to say that Wilson is a better quarterback than Manning? Pfft....no...let's not get silly...at least not yet. But is he more "clutch"? Well the numbers suggest he is and it makes me wonder hat the future has in store for Wilson.

I think if the Seahawks repeat as Super Bowl champions this year that Wilson has made a strong case for the Hall of Fame provided he demonstrates longevity...but the rings would be there, the efficiency stats are certainly there, the leadership is there, the star power is there......quite a bit of "ifs" remain....but let's ask this...which would you rather have? A QB who destroys all records in the regular season and collapses in the playoffs, or a guy that doesn't light up the stats but explodes in the playoffs? The stats are clear....in the big game Manning chokes and Wilson explodes.

Again I am NOT arguing that Wilson is better than Manning. That's absurd. I am looking at legacy and big picture considerations

8220 Impeccable 8221 Russell Wilson in rare company after another strong postseason performance HeraldNet.com - Seattle Sidelines

The title of Mr. October is only great in baseball. Somebody should tell Manning that.

During Russell Wilson's 3 year career, he's turned the ball just over once per game. He had some fumblitis earlier this year while his OL was in turmoil. In the postseason, he's 5-1 throwing a total of one interception. I don't know his postseason fumble number but it's probably close to zero. He's as steady as they come. What separates him is his ability to improvise when necessary and make something out of nothing.

A perfect illustration of the comparison was a third and 5 situation yesterday when Manning rolled out and had 20 yards of open space ahead of him. This is the playoffs, man! Lose and stay home. Manning could have walked for the 1st down. He made a good pass downfield but the WR got pushed out of bounds. Punt. Wilson would have tucked it and run out of bounds for a 15 yard gain, or juked the defenders and broke it for considerably more.

As a Niner and Raider fan, I'd love to see Seattle lose. As a Stanford and Cal fan, former USC coach Pete Carroll annoys me. Nothing would please me more than to see Wilson have a terrible meltdown game. But I think it's obvious to everyone that such hopes are far-fetched.

you're only the second person I have ever heard of before who is BOTH a niner and raider fan.the first one I heard of was a few weeks ago.

I was born in SF but lived there less than a year. Lived in Oakland until 4th grade. I grew up a Raider fan (Stabler, Matusak, Casper, Biletnikoff, Alzado, Lester Hayes, Marcus Allen, Plunkett, Christenson, etc.. Became a Niner fan when the Raiders moved to LA. Became a Raider fan again when they moved back to Oakland, but there hasn't been much to cheer about in Oakland for a long time.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Of course he didnt run...........leveled same charge against Favre when Vikings lost last game he played........they dont run, to expect them to suddenly be what they aren't is ridiculous. Both were bangd up at the time too.

He could have hopped on one leg for the 1st down, or crab walked. No Colt was in the same time zone.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Run Peyton Run,..........right.................

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I have to admit the title of the thread seems ludicrous. But humor me for a moment. First I have to say that Manning is among the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I think that had he won another Super Bowl he would be atop the conversation for the best ever. But nine times he has gone "one and done" in the playoffs against single Super Bowl victory. I don't think there is any argument that Peyton Manning is probably the best regular season quarterback to play the game, but can anyone even try to argue anymore that he can't win the big game on a consistent basis? Personally, my feeling is "pressure Manning = win the game". That's what Seattle did in the Super Bowl last year. My conclusion is that if Manning has protection he is almost unbeatable, BUT put shoulder pads into Manning and he will crumble like a cheap paper napkin. Can THAT be considered the best ever?

I think in some ways Manning best quality is the biggest detriment to his legacy. Take any season in the NFL and make a comparison. Track the win/loss records of teams when their quarterback passes for 300 yards against when they have 30 or more carries as a team. I have done this countless times and what you will find is that when a quarterback throws for 300 yards the team wins about 35% of the time. When a team runs 30 times they win about 65% of the time. Despite the love of passing by NFL fans the statistics are clear that passing makes headlines but rushing wins games. But why would anyone try and run when you have Peyton Manning throwing the ball? The numbers say "run" but Manning's abilities demand a passing attack even though it is a strategy that fails more than it succeeds.

Think of some great quarterbacks; Dan Marino (never had a running game and never won a title), John Elway (never won a title until he had Terrell Davis running the ball)...Terry Bradshaw had Franco Harris. Joe Montana had Roger Craig, Jim Kelly (although they didn't win a title) had Thurmond Thomas....and as a segue....Russell Wilson has Marshawn Lynch.

Now when it is pointed out that Wilson is 5-1 in career playoff games a lot of people will say "yeah but he has Lynch and a great defense". Well...guess what....so did almost every other quarterback that won titles. In fact quarterbacks who won titles without a running game or a defense (or both) are few and far in between. But here's what intrigues me. According to STATS Inc...the quarterback with the best quarterback rating in the playoffs in NFL history is not Manning, nor Marino, nor Elway, Fouts, Montana, or Young.....it's Russell Wilson at 109.6. The second best is Bart Starr at 104.8. Is this to say that Wilson is a better quarterback than Manning? Pfft....no...let's not get silly...at least not yet. But is he more "clutch"? Well the numbers suggest he is and it makes me wonder hat the future has in store for Wilson.

I think if the Seahawks repeat as Super Bowl champions this year that Wilson has made a strong case for the Hall of Fame provided he demonstrates longevity...but the rings would be there, the efficiency stats are certainly there, the leadership is there, the star power is there......quite a bit of "ifs" remain....but let's ask this...which would you rather have? A QB who destroys all records in the regular season and collapses in the playoffs, or a guy that doesn't light up the stats but explodes in the playoffs? The stats are clear....in the big game Manning chokes and Wilson explodes.

Again I am NOT arguing that Wilson is better than Manning. That's absurd. I am looking at legacy and big picture considerations

8220 Impeccable 8221 Russell Wilson in rare company after another strong postseason performance HeraldNet.com - Seattle Sidelines

The title of Mr. October is only great in baseball. Somebody should tell Manning that.

During Russell Wilson's 3 year career, he's turned the ball just over once per game. He had some fumblitis earlier this year while his OL was in turmoil. In the postseason, he's 5-1 throwing a total of one interception. I don't know his postseason fumble number but it's probably close to zero. He's as steady as they come. What separates him is his ability to improvise when necessary and make something out of nothing.

A perfect illustration of the comparison was a third and 5 situation yesterday when Manning rolled out and had 20 yards of open space ahead of him. This is the playoffs, man! Lose and stay home. Manning could have walked for the 1st down. He made a good pass downfield but the WR got pushed out of bounds. Punt. Wilson would have tucked it and run out of bounds for a 15 yard gain, or juked the defenders and broke it for considerably more.

As a Niner and Raider fan, I'd love to see Seattle lose. As a Stanford and Cal fan, former USC coach Pete Carroll annoys me. Nothing would please me more than to see Wilson have a terrible meltdown game. But I think it's obvious to everyone that such hopes are far-fetched.

you're only the second person I have ever heard of before who is BOTH a niner and raider fan.the first one I heard of was a few weeks ago.

I was born in SF but lived there less than a year. Lived in Oakland until 4th grade. I grew up a Raider fan (Stabler, Matusak, Casper, Biletnikoff, Alzado, Lester Hayes, Marcus Allen, Plunkett, Christenson, etc.. Became a Niner fan when the Raiders moved to LA. Became a Raider fan again when they moved back to Oakland, but there hasn't been much to cheer about in Oakland for a long time.

thank god the raiders are back in CHOKELAND where they belong with all the other scumbags.I hated them for invading LA.

Thats Rams territory.hard for me to hate them now since they are back in chokeland where they belong back to being the chokeland faiders.
The only time I ever liked them was when Gannon was there.an aquitance of mine here in kc is friends with him fromhis days with the chiefs and I got to meet him once so I wanted to them to win the superbowl,Its funny that ever since he retired,they are back to being the chokeland faders again.lol

The raiders are STAYING in Oakland as well thank god despite the delusions some people have around here that they will be back in LA anytime in the future ignoring rhe fact you have to get approval from the majority of the owners which thankfully,will never happen because they will never approve a davis owned raider franchise to move there because they are sore at Al for sueing the NFL to move there in the first place.

when the raiders were in LA,i hated them as much as I hate the dallas fagboys.The team they played each week,I always rooted for that team to win.it was really the OAKLAND RAIDERS that won the superbowl in 84 since the majority of the players on that team came from oakland.they were only LA in name only.

with them back in oakland where they belong though now,its hard for me to muster the same hate for them i had when they were in LA.the same hate that I have had for the Rams for the past 20 years.for the past 20 years,I did the same with them i did with the raiders,rooted for the other team they were playing to win all the time.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Now if Rich Gannon had won the Super Bowl the refs sent the Patriots to instead would he be Hall Of Fame......same argument 2 rings

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Now if Rich Gannon had won the Super Bowl the refs sent the Patriots to instead would he be Hall Of Fame......same argument 2 rings

i assume you mean two AFC rings since he lost the one superbowl he went to? He for sure got robbed of going to the superbowl the refs sent the pats to but its just as well because they would have lost to that phony fraud team that plays in saint louis at the moment that I refuse to mention the name of. cant say saint louis and then add the name after that together,never will. I was happy the pats went though looking back cause the raiders would have just lost to them.

Their defense was horrible,their defensive coordinater the raiders had back then was an idiot,they got to that superbowl that year DESPITE the defensive cocordinater they had,not because of him.

He later became a defensive coordinater of the bengals and I was talking to a bengals fan back then about how shitty he was and even HE agreed saying he could not believe the bengals were stupid enough to hire him.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

only an AFC ring unfortunately for me. the ONE time I like them and they lose,wouldnt you know it.the story of my life.

 

[BluePhantom]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

only an AFC ring unfortunately for me. the ONE time I like them and they lose,wouldnt you know it.the story of my life.

I have a love / hate thing with Gannon because he took me to back to back fantasy football titles (well..Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, and Antonio Freeman had a bit to do with it too LOL). I hate the Raiders with an exclusive passion exceeded only by the 49ers. But according to the scoring system (points per completion) and the Raiders running that short pass after short pass offense, he was the obvious call. I have to love him for getting me a couple fantasy rings, but it made me cringe every week to have to cheer for him.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

only an AFC ring unfortunately for me. the ONE time I like them and they lose,wouldnt you know it.the story of my life.

I have a love / hate thing with Gannon because he took me to back to back fantasy football titles (well..Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, and Antonio Freeman had a bit to do with it too LOL). I hate the Raiders with an exclusive passion exceeded only by the 49ers. But according to the scoring system (points per completion) and the Raiders running that short pass after short pass offense, he was the obvious call. I have to love him for getting me a couple fantasy rings, but it made me cringe every week to have to cheer for him.

you hate them even with them being back in oakland again?

 

[BluePhantom]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

only an AFC ring unfortunately for me. the ONE time I like them and they lose,wouldnt you know it.the story of my life.

I have a love / hate thing with Gannon because he took me to back to back fantasy football titles (well..Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, and Antonio Freeman had a bit to do with it too LOL). I hate the Raiders with an exclusive passion exceeded only by the 49ers. But according to the scoring system (points per completion) and the Raiders running that short pass after short pass offense, he was the obvious call. I have to love him for getting me a couple fantasy rings, but it made me cringe every week to have to cheer for him.

you hate them even with them being back in oakland again?

Well since Seattle moved to the NFC West the hate has waned, but you know, when you grew up despising a team it never really goes away.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

only an AFC ring unfortunately for me. the ONE time I like them and they lose,wouldnt you know it.the story of my life.

I have a love / hate thing with Gannon because he took me to back to back fantasy football titles (well..Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, and Antonio Freeman had a bit to do with it too LOL). I hate the Raiders with an exclusive passion exceeded only by the 49ers. But according to the scoring system (points per completion) and the Raiders running that short pass after short pass offense, he was the obvious call. I have to love him for getting me a couple fantasy rings, but it made me cringe every week to have to cheer for him.

you hate them even with them being back in oakland again?

Well since Seattle moved to the NFC West the hate has waned, but you know, when you grew up despising a team it never really goes away.

yeah i understand,I forgot about how they were in the AFC for a long time.Living here in kc my brother and dad always had the chiefs games on so i remember the years with them playing the hawks,Like I said,I liked them when Zorn was there but never followed them after that till Carrol and wilson came along.i have always hated the chiefs,never liked them except for when montana was here,had no choice then since he was already my favorite quarterback ever when he was with the niners.

 

[BluePhantom]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

only an AFC ring unfortunately for me. the ONE time I like them and they lose,wouldnt you know it.the story of my life.

I have a love / hate thing with Gannon because he took me to back to back fantasy football titles (well..Terrell Davis, Jamal Anderson, and Antonio Freeman had a bit to do with it too LOL). I hate the Raiders with an exclusive passion exceeded only by the 49ers. But according to the scoring system (points per completion) and the Raiders running that short pass after short pass offense, he was the obvious call. I have to love him for getting me a couple fantasy rings, but it made me cringe every week to have to cheer for him.

you hate them even with them being back in oakland again?

Well since Seattle moved to the NFC West the hate has waned, but you know, when you grew up despising a team it never really goes away.

yeah i understand,I forgot about how they were in the AFC for a long time.Living here in kc my brother and dad always had the chiefs games on so i remember the years with them playing the hawks,Like I said,I liked them when Zorn was there but never followed them after that till Carrol and wilson came along.i have always hated the chiefs,never liked them except for when montana was here,had no choice then since he was already my favorite quarterback ever when he was with the niners.

Well the Seahawks didn't have a lot of success in the AFC West so it was easy to get bitter about our divisional rivals back then. LOL. The Hawks had some very good teams in the 80s with Kreig and Kenny Easley....Easley is probably my favorite player ever. That guy was sent from God to punish people for their sins. My God he hit hard. Had his kidneys not blown out so early in his career I think he would have been in the Hall of Fame for sure and probably would have gone down in history as one of the best safeties to ever play the game.

But you know those Hawks teams are, in my mind, proof of how important a good owner is. Seattle never had a good owner until Paul Allen. I remember the press conference when he bought the team and he was on live TV signing the purchase contract. The very next thing he did was to sign an order lowering ticket prices until the Seahawks earned the right to charge a higher price. Then he starts answering questions and says something like "my job is to build stadiums, hire senior personnel, sign checks, and shut the heck up". It was like "OH MY GOD WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL OUR LIVES?!?!"

Dan Snyder should take note

 

[Treeshepherd]

Run Peyton Run,..........right.................

He looked okay rolling out 15 yards. He couldn't have hobbled another 10? Phil Simms 2015 could have ran for the 1st, and he suggested as much from the booth.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

Even after the tuck rule debacle, the Raiders got the ball back and had a chance to ice that game. Gannon overthrew a wide open guy on third down and they punted back to NE. Next year, Gannon played bad in the Super Bowl.

Even so, Gannon and Jeff Garcia with SF proved that you can pick a QB off the scrap heap, pay him $3-$4 million and have success. It's not always the right formula draft a 1st rounder. Sam Bradford comes to mind. Johnny Football. Gabbert. Alex Smith #1 overall?
Sometimes it's better to use that $ elsewhere.

Grab the best QB from Canadian football, like Warren Moon. Kurt Warner came from the Arena league.

 

[BluePhantom]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

Even after the tuck rule debacle, the Raiders got the ball back and had a chance to ice that game. Gannon overthrew a wide open guy on third down and they punted back to NE. Next year, Gannon played bad in the Super Bowl.

Even so, Gannon and Jeff Garcia with SF proved that you can pick a QB off the scrap heap, pay him $3-$4 million and have success. It's not always the right formula draft a 1st rounder. Sam Bradford comes to mind. Johnny Football. Gabbert. Alex Smith #1 overall?
Sometimes it's better to use that $ elsewhere.

Grab the best QB from Canadian football, like Warren Moon. Kurt Warner came from the Arena league.

I have never looked it up but I would wager that most first round quarterbacks have been busts. Some of the greatest to ever play were taken later. Bart Starr: 17th round. Tom Brady: 6th round. Dan Fouts: 3rd round, Johnny Unitas: 9th round, Joe Montana: 3rd round, Brett Favre: 2nd round, Roger Staubach: 10th round....and just to be an incredible homer...Russell Wilson: 3rd round.

 

[rightwinger]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

Even after the tuck rule debacle, the Raiders got the ball back and had a chance to ice that game. Gannon overthrew a wide open guy on third down and they punted back to NE. Next year, Gannon played bad in the Super Bowl.

Even so, Gannon and Jeff Garcia with SF proved that you can pick a QB off the scrap heap, pay him $3-$4 million and have success. It's not always the right formula draft a 1st rounder. Sam Bradford comes to mind. Johnny Football. Gabbert. Alex Smith #1 overall?
Sometimes it's better to use that $ elsewhere.

Grab the best QB from Canadian football, like Warren Moon. Kurt Warner came from the Arena league.

I have never looked it up but I would wager that most first round quarterbacks have been busts. Some of the greatest to ever play were taken later. Bart Starr: 17th round. Tom Brady: 6th round. Dan Fouts: 3rd round, Johnny Unitas: 9th round, Joe Montana: 3rd round, Brett Favre: 2nd round, Roger Staubach: 10th round....and just to be an incredible homer...Russell Wilson: 3rd round.

I wouldn't go that far....
Elway, Marino, Peyton Manning and a slew of others were first rounders

 

[BluePhantom]

Damn could have swore Gannon had ring...........never mind.........

Even after the tuck rule debacle, the Raiders got the ball back and had a chance to ice that game. Gannon overthrew a wide open guy on third down and they punted back to NE. Next year, Gannon played bad in the Super Bowl.

Even so, Gannon and Jeff Garcia with SF proved that you can pick a QB off the scrap heap, pay him $3-$4 million and have success. It's not always the right formula draft a 1st rounder. Sam Bradford comes to mind. Johnny Football. Gabbert. Alex Smith #1 overall?
Sometimes it's better to use that $ elsewhere.

Grab the best QB from Canadian football, like Warren Moon. Kurt Warner came from the Arena league.

I have never looked it up but I would wager that most first round quarterbacks have been busts. Some of the greatest to ever play were taken later. Bart Starr: 17th round. Tom Brady: 6th round. Dan Fouts: 3rd round, Johnny Unitas: 9th round, Joe Montana: 3rd round, Brett Favre: 2nd round, Roger Staubach: 10th round....and just to be an incredible homer...Russell Wilson: 3rd round.

I wouldn't go that far....
Elway, Marino, Peyton Manning and a slew of others were first rounders

So was Rick Mirer, Dan McGwire, Ryan Leaf, Jason Campbell, Matt Leinart, Rex Grossman, Byron Leftwich, Patrick Ramsey, Chad Pennington, Mark Malone, Brady Quinn, Richard Todd, Kyle Boller, J.P. Losman, Tommy Maddox, Vince Young, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Kelly Stouffer, Jim Druckenmiller, Tim Couch, Cade McNown, David Klingler, Todd Blackledge, Akili Smith, Andre Ware, Heath Schuler, JaMarcus Russell, and Todd Marinovich.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Yeah, does anyone really think Marcus Mariota is going to come in and have success?

I like Blake Bortles. I liked him at CF. My fantasy league is dynasty. I drafted him last year and I'm sticking with him at least thru next season. He could be good if J-ville can build a team.