Rising intolerance in Indonesia

[Votto]

Jakarta governor Ahok's blasphemy trial: all you need to know

"Jakarta governor Ahok's blasphemy trial: all you need to know.
Ahok, a Christian of Chinese descent, has angered Indonesia’s religious conservatives
by referencing a verse from the Islamic holy book on the campaign trail."

"Indonesia’s strict 1965 blasphemy law, which makes it possible to prosecute
Ahok for his provocative comments. Rights groups have long campaigned for
the law to be revoked. In 2012, a civil servant from Sumatra was sentenced
to two-and-a-half years in prison for declaring himself an atheist on Facebook."

"Several indicators over recent years point to rising religious intolerance in the world’s
largest Muslim-majority nation, including growing discrimination and attacks against
religious minorities, and a recent wave of vitriol against the LGBT community."

Jakarta governor Ahok sentenced to two years in prison for blasphemy

"Jakarta governor Ahok sentenced to two years in prison for blasphemy"

"Jakarta’s Christian governor has been sentenced to two years in prison after a trial that was
widely seen as a measure of religious pluralism in Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim-majority country."

"The blasphemy charge related to Ahok’s reference to a passage of the
Qur’an during his re-election campaign in September, which hardline
Islamist groups said amounted to insulting the holy book.
He insinuated that his opponents had used a Qur’anic verse to trick people
into voting against him. An edited version of the speech went viral, sparking outrage.
Ahok, a Christian with ethnic Chinese roots, is a “double minority” in Indonesia."

"Harsono said more than 100 Indonesians had been convicted of blasphemy
in the past decade, with acquittals in such cases extremely rare."

Visiting Indonesia, Barack Obama has expressed his support for Ahok.

 

[Votto]

Here is the message Barak Obama has for us after his visit to Indonesia

Obama Warns Americans About Too Much Patriotism — On July 4th Weekend!

The Guardian reports:

The former US president said some countries had adopted “an aggressive kind of nationalism” and “increased resentment of minority groups”, in a speech in Indonesia on Saturday that could be seen as a commentary on the US as well as Indonesia.

“It’s been clear for a while that the world is at a crossroads. At an inflection point,” Obama said, telling a Jakarta crowd stories of how much the capital had improved since he lived there as a child.

But he said that increased prosperity had been accompanied by new global problems, adding that as the world confronts issues ranging from inequality to terrorism, some countries – both developed and less developed – had adopted a more aggressive and isolationist stance.

“If we don’t stand up for tolerance and moderation and respect for others, if we begin to doubt ourselves and all that we have accomplished, then much of the progress that we have made will not continue,” he said.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted.

 

[Votto]

So I have a question for Obama fans out there. Here is what Obama had to say about Democracy.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted

But is Indonesia not a democracy? Are they not voting people in who create blasphemy laws?

I thought democracy was the fix to all of our woes and not part of the problem.

What gives?

 

[irosie91]

Long ago------not so long ago----I was old even then-----I ended up in the big courthouse
being summoned to JURY DUTY------We all got asked questions like-----name, place of birth---etc etc. I provided my name (obviously jewish) and place of birth (large city
in the US) etc etc. Another --a man a bit older than me said to place of birth---"LEBANON"----another---also a bit older ---"IRAQ" We were all sent out to the
big hall to wait. I sat on a bench. The Lebanon man sat on my right---the Iraq man
say on my left------and the two began a lively conversation in Arabic. I was ok----two arabs talking to each other. and me. Suddenly the two SWITCHED their language
to Hebrew. ------I issued a Hebrew word-----like "oh gee----the family" They engaged me in conversation which was their histories------how they escaped the arab countries
of their birth. Ok---I was cool, Then I got the political commentary-----"ARABS CAN'T
DO DEMOCRACY -----THEY CANNOT VOTE-----IF THE VOTE THEY WILL VOTE FOR
IDIOTS" It was obviously comment on Bush's theory of "DEMOCRACY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST"------they knew-------the idea of "DEMOCRACY" for the middle east is a
NO GO situation-----they were born there

 

[cnelsen]

Long ago------not so long ago----I was old even then-----I ended up in the big courthouse
being summoned to JURY DUTY------We all got asked questions like-----name, place of birth---etc etc. I provided my name (obviously jewish) and place of birth (large city
in the US) etc etc. Another --a man a bit older than me said to place of birth---"LEBANON"----another---also a bit older ---"IRAQ" We were all sent out to the
big hall to wait. I sat on a bench. The Lebanon man sat on my right---the Iraq man
say on my left------and the two began a lively conversation in Arabic. I was ok----two arabs talking to each other. and me. Suddenly the two SWITCHED their language
to Hebrew. ------I issued a Hebrew word-----like "oh gee----the family" They engaged me in conversation which was their histories------how they escaped the arab countries
of their birth. Ok---I was cool, Then I got the political commentary-----"ARABS CAN'T
DO DEMOCRACY -----THEY CANNOT VOTE-----IF THE VOTE THEY WILL VOTE FOR
IDIOTS" It was obviously comment on Bush's theory of "DEMOCRACY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST"------they knew-------the idea of "DEMOCRACY" for the middle east is a
NO GO situation-----they were born there

I thought Jews weren't supposed to drink and post after sundown.

 

[Hossfly]

Long ago------not so long ago----I was old even then-----I ended up in the big courthouse
being summoned to JURY DUTY------We all got asked questions like-----name, place of birth---etc etc. I provided my name (obviously jewish) and place of birth (large city
in the US) etc etc. Another --a man a bit older than me said to place of birth---"LEBANON"----another---also a bit older ---"IRAQ" We were all sent out to the
big hall to wait. I sat on a bench. The Lebanon man sat on my right---the Iraq man
say on my left------and the two began a lively conversation in Arabic. I was ok----two arabs talking to each other. and me. Suddenly the two SWITCHED their language
to Hebrew. ------I issued a Hebrew word-----like "oh gee----the family" They engaged me in conversation which was their histories------how they escaped the arab countries
of their birth. Ok---I was cool, Then I got the political commentary-----"ARABS CAN'T
DO DEMOCRACY -----THEY CANNOT VOTE-----IF THE VOTE THEY WILL VOTE FOR
IDIOTS" It was obviously comment on Bush's theory of "DEMOCRACY FOR THE MIDDLE EAST"------they knew-------the idea of "DEMOCRACY" for the middle east is a
NO GO situation-----they were born there

I thought Jews weren't supposed to drink and post after sundown.

You got your days mixed up.

 

[pwjohn]

So I have a question for Obama fans out there. Here is what Obama had to say about Democracy.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted

But is Indonesia not a democracy? Are they not voting people in who create blasphemy laws?

I thought democracy was the fix to all of our woes and not part of the problem.

What gives?

Indonesia is all covered up in third world Muslim shithole people who are doing there level best to turn their homeland into a third world Muslim toilet. Democracy is the perfect vehicle to make it happen. Extremists become the enablers.

 

[Votto]

So I have a question for Obama fans out there. Here is what Obama had to say about Democracy.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted

But is Indonesia not a democracy? Are they not voting people in who create blasphemy laws?

I thought democracy was the fix to all of our woes and not part of the problem.

What gives?

Indonesia is all covered up in third world Muslim shithole people who are doing there level best to turn their homeland into a third world Muslim toilet. Democracy is the perfect vehicle to make it happen. Extremists become the enablers.

So if they are voting for people to institute Sharia law, the treats gays and women as second class citizens, and for blasphemy laws, how will democracy curb extremism exactly?

You have a belief that democracy is a virtue, and as such, will eventually do away with what harms us. That sounds like religious fanaticism to me.

Have you noticed how screwed up US politics have become recently after hundreds of years of voting?

What gives?

 

[pwjohn]

So I have a question for Obama fans out there. Here is what Obama had to say about Democracy.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted

But is Indonesia not a democracy? Are they not voting people in who create blasphemy laws?

I thought democracy was the fix to all of our woes and not part of the problem.

What gives?

Indonesia is all covered up in third world Muslim shithole people who are doing there level best to turn their homeland into a third world Muslim toilet. Democracy is the perfect vehicle to make it happen. Extremists become the enablers.

So if they are voting for people to institute Sharia law, the treats gays and women as second class citizens, and for blasphemy laws, how will democracy curb extremism exactly?

You have a belief that democracy is a virtue, and as such, will eventually do away with what harms us. That sounds like religious fanaticism to me.

Have you noticed how screwed up US politics have become recently after hundreds of years of voting?

What gives?

Where did I say democracy is a virtue?

 

[Correll]

Jakarta governor Ahok's blasphemy trial: all you need to know

"Jakarta governor Ahok's blasphemy trial: all you need to know.
Ahok, a Christian of Chinese descent, has angered Indonesia’s religious conservatives
by referencing a verse from the Islamic holy book on the campaign trail."

"Indonesia’s strict 1965 blasphemy law, which makes it possible to prosecute
Ahok for his provocative comments. Rights groups have long campaigned for
the law to be revoked. In 2012, a civil servant from Sumatra was sentenced
to two-and-a-half years in prison for declaring himself an atheist on Facebook."

"Several indicators over recent years point to rising religious intolerance in the world’s
largest Muslim-majority nation, including growing discrimination and attacks against
religious minorities, and a recent wave of vitriol against the LGBT community."

Jakarta governor Ahok sentenced to two years in prison for blasphemy

"Jakarta governor Ahok sentenced to two years in prison for blasphemy"

"Jakarta’s Christian governor has been sentenced to two years in prison after a trial that was
widely seen as a measure of religious pluralism in Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim-majority country."

"The blasphemy charge related to Ahok’s reference to a passage of the
Qur’an during his re-election campaign in September, which hardline
Islamist groups said amounted to insulting the holy book.
He insinuated that his opponents had used a Qur’anic verse to trick people
into voting against him. An edited version of the speech went viral, sparking outrage.
Ahok, a Christian with ethnic Chinese roots, is a “double minority” in Indonesia."

"Harsono said more than 100 Indonesians had been convicted of blasphemy
in the past decade, with acquittals in such cases extremely rare."

Visiting Indonesia, Barack Obama has expressed his support for Ahok.

Mmm, I know, lets import as many of those people as we can so that they can add their culture to ours and enrich our diversity!!!


We hardly have ANY people in jail for blasphemy. We are missing out, big time.

 

[Votto]

So I have a question for Obama fans out there. Here is what Obama had to say about Democracy.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted

But is Indonesia not a democracy? Are they not voting people in who create blasphemy laws?

I thought democracy was the fix to all of our woes and not part of the problem.

What gives?

Indonesia is all covered up in third world Muslim shithole people who are doing there level best to turn their homeland into a third world Muslim toilet. Democracy is the perfect vehicle to make it happen. Extremists become the enablers.

So if they are voting for people to institute Sharia law, the treats gays and women as second class citizens, and for blasphemy laws, how will democracy curb extremism exactly?

You have a belief that democracy is a virtue, and as such, will eventually do away with what harms us. That sounds like religious fanaticism to me.

Have you noticed how screwed up US politics have become recently after hundreds of years of voting?

What gives?

Where did I say democracy is a virtue?

I misread your post. sorry

 

[pwjohn]

So I have a question for Obama fans out there. Here is what Obama had to say about Democracy.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted

But is Indonesia not a democracy? Are they not voting people in who create blasphemy laws?

I thought democracy was the fix to all of our woes and not part of the problem.

What gives?

Indonesia is all covered up in third world Muslim shithole people who are doing there level best to turn their homeland into a third world Muslim toilet. Democracy is the perfect vehicle to make it happen. Extremists become the enablers.

So if they are voting for people to institute Sharia law, the treats gays and women as second class citizens, and for blasphemy laws, how will democracy curb extremism exactly?

You have a belief that democracy is a virtue, and as such, will eventually do away with what harms us. That sounds like religious fanaticism to me.

Have you noticed how screwed up US politics have become recently after hundreds of years of voting?

What gives?

Where did I say democracy is a virtue?

I misread your post. sorry

That's quite alright. I should have been more explicit by saying democracy is nothing more than a tool to be manlipulated by current leadership, or those wanting to replace the current leadership.

Without something that looks an awful lot like our constitution, and bill of rights to ensure the levers of power remain in the governments hands and not the mosque/church, democracy by itself is little more than an invitation to disaster in places like indoinisia.

 

[Votto]

So I have a question for Obama fans out there. Here is what Obama had to say about Democracy.

“What we will see is more and more people arguing against democracy, we will see more and more people who are looking to restrict freedom of the press, and we’ll see more intolerance, more tribal divisions, more ethnic divisions, and religious divisions and more violence,” Obama asserted

But is Indonesia not a democracy? Are they not voting people in who create blasphemy laws?

I thought democracy was the fix to all of our woes and not part of the problem.

What gives?

Indonesia is all covered up in third world Muslim shithole people who are doing there level best to turn their homeland into a third world Muslim toilet. Democracy is the perfect vehicle to make it happen. Extremists become the enablers.

So if they are voting for people to institute Sharia law, the treats gays and women as second class citizens, and for blasphemy laws, how will democracy curb extremism exactly?

You have a belief that democracy is a virtue, and as such, will eventually do away with what harms us. That sounds like religious fanaticism to me.

Have you noticed how screwed up US politics have become recently after hundreds of years of voting?

What gives?

Where did I say democracy is a virtue?

I misread your post. sorry

That's quite alright. I should have been more explicit by saying democracy is nothing more than a tool to be manlipulated by current leadership, or those wanting to replace the current leadership.

Without something that looks an awful lot like our constitution, and bill of rights to ensure the levers of power remain in the governments hands and not the mosque/church, democracy by itself is little more than an invitation to disaster in places like indoinisia.

Ben Franklin aptly summed up the situation.

I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

Only a moral people can be a free people. Voting is but one freedom, but if abused, does us no good whatsoever. This is one of the many reasons why I'm a conservative.

In a weird way, our life line is morality which should be better facilitated through religion. However, give religion all the political power and heads will roll.

We saw this with the early Christian church. Luckily Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world, and did not seek to obtain political or military power. Unfortunately, his example was ignored in the early years on this matter. However, with Islam the exact reverse is true. Mohammad insisted everyone live by Sharia law and converted with the sword.

As such, the two religious could not be further apart.

 

[pwjohn]

Indonesia is all covered up in third world Muslim shithole people who are doing there level best to turn their homeland into a third world Muslim toilet. Democracy is the perfect vehicle to make it happen. Extremists become the enablers.

So if they are voting for people to institute Sharia law, the treats gays and women as second class citizens, and for blasphemy laws, how will democracy curb extremism exactly?

You have a belief that democracy is a virtue, and as such, will eventually do away with what harms us. That sounds like religious fanaticism to me.

Have you noticed how screwed up US politics have become recently after hundreds of years of voting?

What gives?

Where did I say democracy is a virtue?

I misread your post. sorry

That's quite alright. I should have been more explicit by saying democracy is nothing more than a tool to be manlipulated by current leadership, or those wanting to replace the current leadership.

Without something that looks an awful lot like our constitution, and bill of rights to ensure the levers of power remain in the governments hands and not the mosque/church, democracy by itself is little more than an invitation to disaster in places like indoinisia.

Ben Franklin aptly summed up the situation.

I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

Only a moral people can be a free people. Voting is but one freedom, but if abused, does us no good whatsoever. This is one of the many reasons why I'm a conservative.

In a weird way, our life line is morality which should be better facilitated through religion. However, give religion all the political power and heads will roll.

We saw this with the early Christian church. Luckily Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world, and did not seek to obtain political or military power. Unfortunately, his example was ignored in the early years on this matter. However, with Islam the exact reverse is true. Mohammad insisted everyone live by Sharia law and converted with the sword.

As such, the two religious could not be further apart.

That's all very interesting and I'm glad you made that little tidbit of history available for me to read which goes a long ways towards affirming what I said in an earlier post to this thread. But as we all know, the religious among us "here" are very much authoratarian in their beliefs, so are little more than a stutter step away from the "heads will roll" sharia law types because of that. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile every time. That my friend is much to close for comfort.

The religious here do not have the authority or right to dictate who's eligible for the rights and freedoms America has to offer.