Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Dogmaphobe]

If the Kurds were in Gaza and Palestinians were in Turkey people would scream that Israel is oppressing the Kurds. No one would give a F*CK about Palestinians (see Lebanon). Its because Israel has Jews that people care. Their Jew hate is so damn obvious.

Supporting the Palestinian' right to identity and self determination isn't Jew hating.

Then explain why no one complains the atrocities in Lebanon vs Palestinians?

I 100% disagree with you. It’s all about Jew hate.

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

 

[rylah]

I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population. Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. They have often ended up in reduced circumstances from where they were before and they hsve lost their communitees and connections to place.

Nice sound byte. Convince me. Name some States which were divided along ethnic lines and new countries formed where the population is worse off AFTER the division than before or during.

thete is a diffetence between dividing along ethnic lines and forced population transfers.

Sure. So give me some examples. Convince me.

Ok. Forced population transfers. Are these people better off?

Typically when this happens people lose home, status, community and livelyhood that is never fully regained. This isnt even looking at the bloodshed and agony over loss of place and heritage.

A small scale example can be found in those communitees in India and other areas affected by rising sea levels and increased flooding. Rather than rebuilding governments are buying them out and or forceably moving them to inland towns and urban areas. But these are agricultural people who no have no land or livelyhood. They end up among the urban destitute worse off then they were before and many don't recover.

Another example is that of the Mizrahi Jews. Prior to being forceably expelled they one of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities, they had a degree of wealth and status all of which they lost upon expulsion. In Israel they face discrimination from other Jews, an erosion of their culture, and they make up a disproportionate number of Israeli Jews living in poverty. Are they better off then if they had never been expelled?

An ongoing example is the forced and horrifically violent expulsion of the Muslim Rohinga from Bhuddist majority Myanmar. They are typically small farmers, agriculturalists, small merchants. They have lost land, home, livestock and the means of livelihood. They are destitute refugees in a very poor country that shares a common religion. Are they better off? Is Bangladesh?

I'm sorry for going a bit off-topic but this is a dishonest claim, usually twisted by anti-Israeli organizations and the old generation of politicians who experienced difficulties, real ones, upon moving to Israel.

A couple of things to make clear:

1. Any big community that moves to another country experiences difficulties for 1-2 generations.
It's simple math I don't think I have to explain. The same was discussed by C.G. Jung regarding European societies. It's a natural human condition - not a state policy.

2. "One of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities" - Jews tended to be more educated than the rest of the populations and successful everywhere in any condition.
Yet till the last days of Moroccan Jewry (the MOST wealthy and integrated) they still lived in Mlahs - officially segregated ghettos. A Jew walking out the Mlah into Muslim areas had to put his shoes on the shoulder to differentiate himself. Hertzl's grandfather was serving Rabbi Elkalai - the first visionary of modern Zionism who had a set and detailed plan for re-building Israel. His plan was initiated by the order of Rabbi Haim ben-Attar - a Moroccan sage who left everything behind to move to Israel, and made journeys through Europe to convince Jews join him.. What initiated this - Arab pogroms! What was Rabbi Hami ben-Attar's order - that upon the first sign of attacks on the Jews they MUST leave and go to their homeland to save themselves. It was the 18th century. Many don't realize that Arab and European pogroms occurred almost at the same period if time. Yes they were Kings' advisors, of most importance for setting international trades and relationship, physicians etc. but Stalin too had Jewish doctors...and we know how it ended.
Another vivid example is Haim Ferhi - the most influential Jew in Ottoman Syria, read about him, and read about the Damascus affair, as a result of which were initiated the first Zionist international organizations.
It was real apartheid, both in Europe and Middle East, to say they were most integrated- is disingenuous and offensive.

3. "In Israel they suffer from discrimination" - not discrimination but natural integration difficulties. For example the million Soviet Jews who arrived in the 90's were in direst situation compared to Soviet Jews who moved at the beginning of the century, or even during the 70's.
Inheritance is a key factor here , it takes 1-2 generations to stand firmly and pass security to Your offspring.

4. "Erosion of their culture"
In fact - Israeli Jews are mixed 50/50 Middle eastern and Ashkenazi - through intermarriage, I'm an example.
Israel is a real melting pot - for example the most common surnames are Mizrahi, our most successful singers are - Mizrahi, we predominantly pray from Mizrahi prayer-books (even in Ashkenazi synagogues).
On the other hand if You go to Ukraine on Rosh haShana (where Rabbi Nachman is buried) You'll see 90% of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews from Israel, the same trends go in the "other" direction. It's because we're a nation.

On the other hand Arabs still have difficulty to marry someone from, or move to another Arab majority town because of 'Mush milna' - not one of us in Arabic. A distance of 50km is enough. This is the reason why they demand to be called refugees while living in the same country - Arab tribes have been historically violently fighting each other over everything, the tribe loyalty comes before any social structure, the nation and even Sharia courts.

5. "Disproportionate poverty"- maybe, but frankly I can't see it. There's no real poverty in Israel other than by choice. And many do take that choice to go an be Torah scholars, eat bread with butter and sleep on thin mattresses. Another point is that Israel was built by a majority of Ashkenazi immigrants, who arrived earlier en mass, their advantage is natural due to time frames, and the fact that secular education was more prevalent in Europe than in Middle East. Compared to Mizrahi Jews who immigrated in the 50-70's, Soviet Jews from the 90's are only finishing their integration financially and mentally.Though it's a very quick integration - 1 generation only, if not a record in human history.
One other key factor is understanding that Israel, in the 50's-60's (when many Mizrahi immigrated) experienced an austerity period. There were no resources to build houses fast enough for the new immigrants, and all Israelis were receiving limited portions of groceries by talons.

This is very disingenuous, and poisonous to suggest these people would be better off staying in Yemen, Morocco or Iraq. It's the same as when people suggest Jews were better off in Eretz Israel under Muslim rule, neglecting that this was the most impoverished, neglected, wild and violent region of the Ottoman empire for all inhabitants.It was worse than in any of those other places where Jews were usually left alone during inter-Arab fighting, in Eretz Israel the weak Jewish community was systematically impoverished by the govt, and the neighbors who targeted Jews in every opportunity, even when uninvolved in their conflicts.
We didn't reestablish our country just for a shelter, we went to the most poor and dangerous place and made it into a gem, the rest, like Morocco and Iraq for example, can desperately bite their elbows begging us back.

 

[Ecocertifmrl]

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. They have often ended up in reduced circumstances from where they were before and they hsve lost their communitees and connections to place.

Nice sound byte. Convince me. Name some States which were divided along ethnic lines and new countries formed where the population is worse off AFTER the division than before or during.

thete is a diffetence between dividing along ethnic lines and forced population transfers.

Sure. So give me some examples. Convince me.

Ok. Forced population transfers. Are these people better off?

Typically when this happens people lose home, status, community and livelyhood that is never fully regained. This isnt even looking at the bloodshed and agony over loss of place and heritage.

A small scale example can be found in those communitees in India and other areas affected by rising sea levels and increased flooding. Rather than rebuilding governments are buying them out and or forceably moving them to inland towns and urban areas. But these are agricultural people who no have no land or livelyhood. They end up among the urban destitute worse off then they were before and many don't recover.

Another example is that of the Mizrahi Jews. Prior to being forceably expelled they one of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities, they had a degree of wealth and status all of which they lost upon expulsion. In Israel they face discrimination from other Jews, an erosion of their culture, and they make up a disproportionate number of Israeli Jews living in poverty. Are they better off then if they had never been expelled?

An ongoing example is the forced and horrifically violent expulsion of the Muslim Rohinga from Bhuddist majority Myanmar. They are typically small farmers, agriculturalists, small merchants. They have lost land, home, livestock and the means of livelihood. They are destitute refugees in a very poor country that shares a common religion. Are they better off? Is Bangladesh?

I'm sorry for going a bit off-topic but this is a dishonest claim, usually twisted by anti-Israeli organizations and the old generation of politicians who experienced difficulties, real ones, upon moving to Israel.

A couple of things to make clear:

1. Any big community that moves to another country experiences difficulties for 1-2 generations.
It's simple math I don't think I have to explain. The same was discussed by C.G. Jung regarding European societies. It's a natural human condition - not a state policy.

2. "One of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities" - Jews tended to be more educated than the rest of the populations and successful everywhere in any condition.
Yet till the last days of Moroccan Jewry (the MOST wealthy and integrated) they still lived in Mlahs - officially segregated ghettos. A Jew walking out the Mlah into Muslim areas had to put his shoes on the shoulder to differentiate himself. Hertzl's grandfather was serving Rabbi Elkalai - the first visionary of modern Zionism who had a set and detailed plan for re-building Israel. His plan was initiated by the order of Rabbi Haim ben-Attar - a Moroccan sage who left everything behind to move to Israel, and made journeys through Europe to convince Jews join him.. What initiated this - Arab pogroms! What was Rabbi Hami ben-Attar's order - that upon the first sign of attacks on the Jews they MUST leave and go to their homeland to save themselves. It was the 18th century. Many don't realize that Arab and European pogroms occurred almost at the same period if time. Yes they were Kings' advisors, of most importance for setting international trades and relationship, physicians etc. but Stalin too had Jewish doctors...and we know how it ended.
Another vivid example is Haim Ferhi - the most influential Jew in Ottoman Syria, read about him, and read about the Damascus affair, as a result of which were initiated the first Zionist international organizations.
It was real apartheid, both in Europe and Middle East, to say they were most integrated- is disingenuous and offensive.

3. "In Israel they suffer from discrimination" - not discrimination but natural integration difficulties. For example the million Soviet Jews who arrived in the 90's were in direst situation compared to Soviet Jews who moved at the beginning of the century, or even during the 70's.
Inheritance is a key factor here , it takes 1-2 generations to stand firmly and pass security to Your offspring.

4. "Erosion of their culture"
In fact - Israeli Jews are mixed 50/50 Middle eastern and Ashkenazi - through intermarriage, I'm an example.
Israel is a real melting pot - for example the most common surnames are Mizrahi, our most successful singers are - Mizrahi, we predominantly pray from Mizrahi prayer-books (even in Ashkenazi synagogues).
On the other hand if You go to Ukraine on Rosh haShana (where Rabbi Nachman is buried) You'll see 90% of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews from Israel, the same trends go in the "other" direction. It's because we're a nation.

On the other hand Arabs still have difficulty to marry someone from, or move to another Arab majority town because of 'Mush milna' - not one of us in Arabic. A distance of 50km is enough. This is the reason why they demand to be called refugees while living in the same country - Arab tribes have been historically violently fighting each other over everything, the tribe loyalty comes before any social structure, the nation and even Sharia courts.

5. "Disproportionate poverty"- maybe, but frankly I can't see it. There's no real poverty in Israel other than by choice. And many do take that choice to go an be Torah scholars, eat bread with butter and sleep on thin mattresses. Another point is that Israel was built by a majority of Ashkenazi immigrants, who arrived earlier en mass, their advantage is natural due to time frames, and the fact that secular education was more prevalent in Europe than in Middle East. Compared to Mizrahi Jews who immigrated in the 50-70's, Soviet Jews from the 90's are only finishing their integration financially and mentally.Though it's a very quick integration - 1 generation only, if not a record in human history.
One other key factor is understanding that Israel, in the 50's-60's (when many Mizrahi immigrated) experienced an austerity period. There were no resources to build houses fast enough for the new immigrants, and all Israelis were receiving limited portions of groceries by talons.

This is very disingenuous, and poisonous to suggest these people would be better off staying in Yemen, Morocco or Iraq. It's the same as when people suggest Jews were better off in Eretz Israel under Muslim rule, neglecting that this was the most impoverished, neglected, wild and violent region of the Ottoman empire for all inhabitants.Compared to all those other places where Jews were usually left alone during inter-Arab fighting, in Eretz Israel the impoverished community was systematically impoverished by the govt, and the local Arabs who targeted them in every war, even when uninvolved.

I'm sorry you write so much and can so little. But 99% of your points are inadequate.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Then explain why no one complains the atrocities in Lebanon vs Palestinians?

I 100% disagree with you. It’s all about Jew hate.

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

The fact 22938 is you're a racist. That's all I hear when you type.

I'maracistI'maracistI'marackst.....

You hear when I type? LOL

 

[rylah]

Nice sound byte. Convince me. Name some States which were divided along ethnic lines and new countries formed where the population is worse off AFTER the division than before or during.

thete is a diffetence between dividing along ethnic lines and forced population transfers.

Sure. So give me some examples. Convince me.

Ok. Forced population transfers. Are these people better off?

Typically when this happens people lose home, status, community and livelyhood that is never fully regained. This isnt even looking at the bloodshed and agony over loss of place and heritage.

A small scale example can be found in those communitees in India and other areas affected by rising sea levels and increased flooding. Rather than rebuilding governments are buying them out and or forceably moving them to inland towns and urban areas. But these are agricultural people who no have no land or livelyhood. They end up among the urban destitute worse off then they were before and many don't recover.

Another example is that of the Mizrahi Jews. Prior to being forceably expelled they one of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities, they had a degree of wealth and status all of which they lost upon expulsion. In Israel they face discrimination from other Jews, an erosion of their culture, and they make up a disproportionate number of Israeli Jews living in poverty. Are they better off then if they had never been expelled?

An ongoing example is the forced and horrifically violent expulsion of the Muslim Rohinga from Bhuddist majority Myanmar. They are typically small farmers, agriculturalists, small merchants. They have lost land, home, livestock and the means of livelihood. They are destitute refugees in a very poor country that shares a common religion. Are they better off? Is Bangladesh?

I'm sorry for going a bit off-topic but this is a dishonest claim, usually twisted by anti-Israeli organizations and the old generation of politicians who experienced difficulties, real ones, upon moving to Israel.

A couple of things to make clear:

1. Any big community that moves to another country experiences difficulties for 1-2 generations.
It's simple math I don't think I have to explain. The same was discussed by C.G. Jung regarding European societies. It's a natural human condition - not a state policy.

2. "One of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities" - Jews tended to be more educated than the rest of the populations and successful everywhere in any condition.
Yet till the last days of Moroccan Jewry (the MOST wealthy and integrated) they still lived in Mlahs - officially segregated ghettos. A Jew walking out the Mlah into Muslim areas had to put his shoes on the shoulder to differentiate himself. Hertzl's grandfather was serving Rabbi Elkalai - the first visionary of modern Zionism who had a set and detailed plan for re-building Israel. His plan was initiated by the order of Rabbi Haim ben-Attar - a Moroccan sage who left everything behind to move to Israel, and made journeys through Europe to convince Jews join him.. What initiated this - Arab pogroms! What was Rabbi Hami ben-Attar's order - that upon the first sign of attacks on the Jews they MUST leave and go to their homeland to save themselves. It was the 18th century. Many don't realize that Arab and European pogroms occurred almost at the same period if time. Yes they were Kings' advisors, of most importance for setting international trades and relationship, physicians etc. but Stalin too had Jewish doctors...and we know how it ended.
Another vivid example is Haim Ferhi - the most influential Jew in Ottoman Syria, read about him, and read about the Damascus affair, as a result of which were initiated the first Zionist international organizations.
It was real apartheid, both in Europe and Middle East, to say they were most integrated- is disingenuous and offensive.

3. "In Israel they suffer from discrimination" - not discrimination but natural integration difficulties. For example the million Soviet Jews who arrived in the 90's were in direst situation compared to Soviet Jews who moved at the beginning of the century, or even during the 70's.
Inheritance is a key factor here , it takes 1-2 generations to stand firmly and pass security to Your offspring.

4. "Erosion of their culture"
In fact - Israeli Jews are mixed 50/50 Middle eastern and Ashkenazi - through intermarriage, I'm an example.
Israel is a real melting pot - for example the most common surnames are Mizrahi, our most successful singers are - Mizrahi, we predominantly pray from Mizrahi prayer-books (even in Ashkenazi synagogues).
On the other hand if You go to Ukraine on Rosh haShana (where Rabbi Nachman is buried) You'll see 90% of Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews from Israel, the same trends go in the "other" direction. It's because we're a nation.

On the other hand Arabs still have difficulty to marry someone from, or move to another Arab majority town because of 'Mush milna' - not one of us in Arabic. A distance of 50km is enough. This is the reason why they demand to be called refugees while living in the same country - Arab tribes have been historically violently fighting each other over everything, the tribe loyalty comes before any social structure, the nation and even Sharia courts.

5. "Disproportionate poverty"- maybe, but frankly I can't see it. There's no real poverty in Israel other than by choice. And many do take that choice to go an be Torah scholars, eat bread with butter and sleep on thin mattresses. Another point is that Israel was built by a majority of Ashkenazi immigrants, who arrived earlier en mass, their advantage is natural due to time frames, and the fact that secular education was more prevalent in Europe than in Middle East. Compared to Mizrahi Jews who immigrated in the 50-70's, Soviet Jews from the 90's are only finishing their integration financially and mentally.Though it's a very quick integration - 1 generation only, if not a record in human history.
One other key factor is understanding that Israel, in the 50's-60's (when many Mizrahi immigrated) experienced an austerity period. There were no resources to build houses fast enough for the new immigrants, and all Israelis were receiving limited portions of groceries by talons.

This is very disingenuous, and poisonous to suggest these people would be better off staying in Yemen, Morocco or Iraq. It's the same as when people suggest Jews were better off in Eretz Israel under Muslim rule, neglecting that this was the most impoverished, neglected, wild and violent region of the Ottoman empire for all inhabitants.Compared to all those other places where Jews were usually left alone during inter-Arab fighting, in Eretz Israel the impoverished community was systematically impoverished by the govt, and the local Arabs who targeted them in every war, even when uninvolved.

I'm sorry you write so much and can so little. But 99% of your points are inadequate.

There's an expresion in Israel about people like You- " walked by, got in the middle of an argument, gave his 'professional' opinion and left the scene".
There's also a word for people who behave in such a way - 'ARSIM' (poisonous in English)- as the lowest form of human development. You're an ARS with a professional qualification of an ARS...I just wonder if it's coincidence that it rhymes with Your additional professional description in English.

Don't You have a rock to crawl back under?

 

[member]

Sure. So give me some examples. Convince me.

Ok. Forced population transfers. Are these people better off?

Typically when this happens people lose home, status, community and livelyhood that is never fully regained. This isnt even looking at the bloodshed and agony over loss of place and heritage.

A small scale example can be found in those communitees in India and other areas affected by rising sea levels and increased flooding. Rather than rebuilding governments are buying them out and or forceably moving them to inland towns and urban areas. But these are agricultural people who no have no land or livelyhood. They end up among the urban destitute worse off then they were before and many don't recover.

Another example is that of the Mizrahi Jews. Prior to being forceably expelled they one of the best integrated and successful Middle Eastern minorities, they had a degree of wealth and status all of which they lost upon expulsion. In Israel they face discrimination from other Jews, an erosion of their culture, and they make up a disproportionate number of Israeli Jews living in poverty. Are they better off then if they had never been expelled?

An ongoing example is the forced and horrifically violent expulsion of the Muslim Rohinga from Bhuddist majority Myanmar. They are typically small farmers, agriculturalists, small merchants. They have lost land, home, livestock and the means of livelihood. They are destitute refugees in a very poor country that shares a common religion. Are they better off? Is Bangladesh?

I think you missed the main point of my initial post. I'm not discussing changed weather patterns or brutal expulsions. But a population exchange in a mutual agreement to separate ethnic groups into two (or more) States through national liberation movements.

Well...are you talking about a strictly voluntary separation?

Collectively, yes. Individually, no.

What does that mean exactly?

Praise God, Praise the Lord. **** PLO offices on American soil.. **** these ungrateful foreign jamokes with their candy visas and U.S. BANK ACCOUNT(S)...accounts with an S. what the hell are these palestinians doing here? shouldn't they be in the gaza strict and the west tank trying to help broker peace and help find a 2-state solution for themselves & their...brethren? American government naivety to the MAX.


"In 1939, we turned away the St. Louis from our harbors. We didn't like immigrants.." ETC...


Guess what: it "ain't" 1939....immigration is a gazillion-times different than when my grandparents schlepped here from Italy. the united states of america is the most liberal, welcoming country on the face of the earth. you should SEE what jeff sessions and mitch and andrew and kirsten LET into this country. you'd be liberally proud.


MOD EDIT -- Removing solicitation of personal information.. Don't do it. Members personal lives are protected.. member

 

[Shusha]

Supporting the Palestinian' right to identity and self determination isn't Jew hating.

Then explain why no one complains the atrocities in Lebanon vs Palestinians?

I 100% disagree with you. It’s all about Jew hate.

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

Yes. The conflict IS between Arabs and Jews. Had there been no conflict, the Palestinian identity would never have arisen. Frankly, I believe most solutions will result in Palestinians being re-absorbed into other cultures.

 

[Shusha]

I think you missed the main point of my initial post. I'm not discussing changed weather patterns or brutal expulsions. But a population exchange in a mutual agreement to separate ethnic groups into two (or more) States through national liberation movements.

Well...are you talking about a strictly voluntary separation?

Collectively, yes. Individually, no.

What does that mean exactly?

It means that there is collective agreement that the best way to proceed is to create two (or more) separate, relatively homogeneous cultures in separate territories, while not every individual will agree. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

And comparing it against other possible outcomes.

India/Pakistan. Yugoslavia. Czechoslovakia. Korea. Etc.

India/Pakistan is a horrific example and India, a country where Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims still live together..so what did the bloody population transfer really achieve?. Korea did not involve what you are talking about, it was an involuntary seperation of one homogenous cultures due to war.

The mass expulsion of Bosnians and the genocide and conflicts in the Balkans led to huge numbers of displaced people. In fact the world is overflowing with more displaced people in refugee camps than ever before ...how is this good for anyone?

You are not talking about voluntary population transfers in any of thhose cases. There is only one voluntary pipulation transfer I am aware of and that is immigration.

Conflict is HORRIBLE for people. No question there. What if we avoided conflict by voluntarily -- strongly encouraged -- population exchange?

 

[Coyote]

Supporting the Palestinian' right to identity and self determination isn't Jew hating.

Then explain why no one complains the atrocities in Lebanon vs Palestinians?

I 100% disagree with you. It’s all about Jew hate.

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

It is a fact.

 

[Coyote]

Then explain why no one complains the atrocities in Lebanon vs Palestinians?

I 100% disagree with you. It’s all about Jew hate.

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

Yes. The conflict IS between Arabs and Jews. Had there been no conflict, the Palestinian identity would never have arisen. Frankly, I believe most solutions will result in Palestinians being re-absorbed into other cultures.

Once a people have an identity you cant simply remove it, whether it is 50, 100, or 1000 years in exhistence. The fact that there are people here who clearly feel there are no such people as Palestinians while simultaneously railing against those who deny Jewish identity is disturbing.

 

[Coyote]

Well...are you talking about a strictly voluntary separation?

Collectively, yes. Individually, no.

What does that mean exactly?

It means that there is collective agreement that the best way to proceed is to create two (or more) separate, relatively homogeneous cultures in separate territories, while not every individual will agree. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

And comparing it against other possible outcomes.

India/Pakistan. Yugoslavia. Czechoslovakia. Korea. Etc.

India/Pakistan is a horrific example and India, a country where Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims still live together..so what did the bloody population transfer really achieve?. Korea did not involve what you are talking about, it was an involuntary seperation of one homogenous cultures due to war.

The mass expulsion of Bosnians and the genocide and conflicts in the Balkans led to huge numbers of displaced people. In fact the world is overflowing with more displaced people in refugee camps than ever before ...how is this good for anyone?

You are not talking about voluntary population transfers in any of thhose cases. There is only one voluntary pipulation transfer I am aware of and that is immigration.

Conflict is HORRIBLE for people. No question there. What if we avoided conflict by voluntarily -- strongly encouraged -- population exchange?

Can you give me an successful example of this and what you mean by "strongly encouraged"?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

Yes. The conflict IS between Arabs and Jews. Had there been no conflict, the Palestinian identity would never have arisen. Frankly, I believe most solutions will result in Palestinians being re-absorbed into other cultures.

Once a people have an identity you cant simply remove it, whether it is 50, 100, or 1000 years in exhistence. The fact that there are people here who clearly feel there are no such people as Palestinians while simultaneously railing against those who deny Jewish identity is disturbing.

I am more disturbed by YOU turning a blind eye that this is 90% about Jew hate and 10% about Palestinian rights.

 

[Shusha]

Collectively, yes. Individually, no.

What does that mean exactly?

It means that there is collective agreement that the best way to proceed is to create two (or more) separate, relatively homogeneous cultures in separate territories, while not every individual will agree. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

And comparing it against other possible outcomes.

India/Pakistan. Yugoslavia. Czechoslovakia. Korea. Etc.

India/Pakistan is a horrific example and India, a country where Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims still live together..so what did the bloody population transfer really achieve?. Korea did not involve what you are talking about, it was an involuntary seperation of one homogenous cultures due to war.

The mass expulsion of Bosnians and the genocide and conflicts in the Balkans led to huge numbers of displaced people. In fact the world is overflowing with more displaced people in refugee camps than ever before ...how is this good for anyone?

You are not talking about voluntary population transfers in any of thhose cases. There is only one voluntary pipulation transfer I am aware of and that is immigration.

Conflict is HORRIBLE for people. No question there. What if we avoided conflict by voluntarily -- strongly encouraged -- population exchange?

Can you give me an successful example of this and what you mean by "strongly encouraged"?

The question was more along the lines of whether it was possible rather than whether it has been done before.

It seems to me that ultimately separation has proven rather successful as opposed the alternatives.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Then explain why no one complains the atrocities in Lebanon vs Palestinians?

I 100% disagree with you. It’s all about Jew hate.

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

Yes. The conflict IS between Arabs and Jews. Had there been no conflict, the Palestinian identity would never have arisen. Frankly, I believe most solutions will result in Palestinians being re-absorbed into other cultures.

That would have been the best solution, yes -- for the Arabs who had no identity other than as Arab to have settled with the Arabs with whom they were indistinguishable.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[Here is one of the main reason why the West, and the East, should stop funding the PA. Where does the money go? ]

The World Bank issued a series of reports on the dire situation in Gaza - and it reveals some interesting facts in its recommendations.

Restore transfer flows
1. Restore aggregate PA payments to Gaza (these have declined by $30 million per month from 2017). Priority should be given to social assistance payments, medical supplies, and salaries for PA employees who are working.
2. Reverse the decline in donor funding to key service delivery agencies such as UNRWA. The cuts began around April 2017. $30 million a month since April 2017 comes out to over half a billion dollars!

(full article online)

World Bank: Abbas has withheld roughly a half a billion dollars from Gaza so far ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ Thank you European Parliament ]

If it passes, the Palestinian Authority will finally be forced to change its textbooks and begin to teach its children about the reality of the geography of the State of Israel as well as the Palestinian Authority – and about the concepts of peace – or forfeit 15,440,597 Euros in funding from the European Union.

(full article online)

European Parliament Committee: No Money for Palestinian Authority Education Until School Books Change

 

[Coyote]

T

1 100% disagree with you. It is perfectly possible to believe both Palestinians and Jews have a right to their identity, to self determination and to the land being squabbled over without hating either one.

As to why they dont care about what happens elsewhere.. Well you tell me. The same can be said about Team Israel. Why do they focus on what the Arabs are doing to Jews but have nothing to say about what the Buddhists are doing to the Rohinga in Myannar?

I DO think the IP conflict gives hardcore antisemites a "legitimate" platform for their hate...they can pretend it isnt about Jews but Zionists. Which falls apart when they application apply different standards to For Jews than for others.

I think the same applies to some who seem to support Israel because they hate Muslims. There too, different standards are applied.

You just answered my questions with a question again. Why doesn’t anyone talk about how Lebanon treats the same Palestinians? Israel is a tiny only Jewish nation. They of course worry about themselves. 99% of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism. Anyone who says differently is a liar.

Ok. Here is your answer. I dont know.

But here is a fact. The conflict is between Israel and Palestinians and any future autonomy will be there not in Lebenon. That is why we have the IP forum not the Lebenon Palestine Forum. Most of the members on both sides only post here.

that is NOT a fact.

the FACT is that the conflict is between Arabs and Jews.

Yes. The conflict IS between Arabs and Jews. Had there been no conflict, the Palestinian identity would never have arisen. Frankly, I believe most solutions will result in Palestinians being re-absorbed into other cultures.

That would have been the best solution, yes -- for the Arabs who had no identity other than as Arab to have settled with the Arabs with whom they were indistinguishable.

That would be like saying send the Jews back to Europe so they can settle among those from whom they are in distinguishable.

Basicaly Team Israel seems to be promoting uprooting Palestinians from their homeland. How convenient.

 

[Coyote]

[ Thank you European Parliament ]

If it passes, the Palestinian Authority will finally be forced to change its textbooks and begin to teach its children about the reality of the geography of the State of Israel as well as the Palestinian Authority – and about the concepts of peace – or forfeit 15,440,597 Euros in funding from the European Union.

(full article online)

European Parliament Committee: No Money for Palestinian Authority Education Until School Books Change

Will Israel beforced to change its textbooks then?

 

[Coyote]

Succrssful for whom?

What does that mean exactly?

It means that there is collective agreement that the best way to proceed is to create two (or more) separate, relatively homogeneous cultures in separate territories, while not every individual will agree. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

And comparing it against other possible outcomes.

India/Pakistan. Yugoslavia. Czechoslovakia. Korea. Etc.

India/Pakistan is a horrific example and India, a country where Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims still live together..so what did the bloody population transfer really achieve?. Korea did not involve what you are talking about, it was an involuntary seperation of one homogenous cultures due to war.

The mass expulsion of Bosnians and the genocide and conflicts in the Balkans led to huge numbers of displaced people. In fact the world is overflowing with more displaced people in refugee camps than ever before ...how is this good for anyone?

You are not talking about voluntary population transfers in any of thhose cases. There is only one voluntary pipulation transfer I am aware of and that is immigration.

Conflict is HORRIBLE for people. No question there. What if we avoided conflict by voluntarily -- strongly encouraged -- population exchange?

Can you give me an successful example of this and what you mean by "strongly encouraged"?

The question was more along the lines of whether it was possible rather than whether it has been done before.

It seems to me that ultimately separation has proven rather successful as opposed the alternatives.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ Thank you European Parliament ]

If it passes, the Palestinian Authority will finally be forced to change its textbooks and begin to teach its children about the reality of the geography of the State of Israel as well as the Palestinian Authority – and about the concepts of peace – or forfeit 15,440,597 Euros in funding from the European Union.

(full article online)

European Parliament Committee: No Money for Palestinian Authority Education Until School Books Change

Will Israel beforced to change its textbooks then?

Does it promote hatred of others, especially of Arabs or Muslims or Christians and the uprooting of all of those people from Israel?