Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Coyote]

The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

Think I explained this to you.. Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict.

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills.

That's why...

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail..

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.

The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with. Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?

 

[flacaltenn]

The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

Think I explained this to you.. Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict.

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills.

That's why...

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail..

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.

The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with. Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?

Where's the $3.1Bill in ECONOMIC aid? That stuff disappeared largely over 2 decades ago..

A LOT of that is just low cost loans for buying US weapons. But I'm not aware of anymore LARGE "social or development aid". It exists thru PRIVATE organizations and industry. But not USAID.

 

[Shusha]

You are not the judge of who is or is not allowed an identity. Regardless of how it came about it is their identity now and those who try to deny it are no different than those who deny the Jewish identity. Why is it do damn important for some to deny anothers identity?

No one has the right to define or judge or deny the rights of other peoples. SELF-identification is a required component. And that alone makes Arab Palestinian identity valid as any other.

HOWEVER, as a national liberation movement, Arab Palestinianism has not been ENOUGH of an identity to create a nation. In nearly a hundred years. That's got to tell you something. That tells me that their identity -- their national identity -- is not (yet) strong enough.


(And I know Tinmore is going to come in here claiming that it is "all Israel's fault" that the Arab Palestinian State doesn't exist, or exists but has been impossibly constrained -- but understand that ALL national liberation movements (by definition) encounter push-back and conflict. The ones which are successful are those whose internal, self-identity is strong enough to overcome that push-back and conflict.)

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

Think I explained this to you.. Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict.

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills.

That's why...

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail..

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.

The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with. Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?

Where's the $3.1Bill in ECONOMIC aid? That stuff disappeared largely over 2 decades ago..

A LOT of that is just low cost loans for buying US weapons. But I'm not aware of anymore LARGE "social or development aid". It exists thru PRIVATE organizations and industry. But not USAID.

I postrd it earlier in the thread but my phone doesnt show post numberd so here is the aid link Tracking Billions of Dollars in Foreign Aid in One Map

 

[Coyote]

You are not the judge of who is or is not allowed an identity. Regardless of how it came about it is their identity now and those who try to deny it are no different than those who deny the Jewish identity. Why is it do damn important for some to deny anothers identity?

No one has the right to define or judge or deny the rights of other peoples. SELF-identification is a required component. And that alone makes Arab Palestinian identity valid as any other.

HOWEVER, as a national liberation movement, Arab Palestinianism has not been ENOUGH of an identity to create a nation. In nearly a hundred years. That's got to tell you something. That tells me that their identity -- their national identity -- is not (yet) strong enough.


(And I know Tinmore is going to come in here claiming that it is "all Israel's fault" that the Arab Palestinian State doesn't exist, or exists but has been impossibly constrained -- but understand that ALL national liberation movements (by definition) encounter push-back and conflict. The ones which are successful are those whose internal, self-identity is strong enough to overcome that push-back and conflict.)

I totally agree with the first paragraph...the second is food for thought.

 

[Shusha]

I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population. Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.

 

[Coyote]

I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population. Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. They have often ended up in reduced circumstances from where they were before and they hsve lost their communitees and connections to place.

 

[flacaltenn]

The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

Think I explained this to you.. Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict.

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills.

That's why...

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail..

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.

The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with. Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?

Where's the $3.1Bill in ECONOMIC aid? That stuff disappeared largely over 2 decades ago..

A LOT of that is just low cost loans for buying US weapons. But I'm not aware of anymore LARGE "social or development aid". It exists thru PRIVATE organizations and industry. But not USAID.

I postrd it earlier in the thread but my phone doesnt show post numberd so here is the aid link Tracking Billions of Dollars in Foreign Aid in One Map

Yeah. That's correct. But it's no longer "economic" aid at all. It's purely targeted for specific defense items and largely in the form of LOANS that are -- BY LAW -- repaid every year in the amount of the new aid received. Quite different from the DOD/defense/security aid we give OTHER countries and then "forgive" their loans.

 

[Shusha]

I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population. Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. They have often ended up in reduced circumstances from where they were before and they hsve lost their communitees and connections to place.

Nice sound byte. Convince me. Name some States which were divided along ethnic lines and new countries formed where the population is worse off AFTER the division than before or during.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .

The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.

 

[flacaltenn]

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .

The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .[/QUOTEthe term

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .

The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .

The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.

I was speaking more of the present, but if we are to limit ourselves to 1948, I both agree and disagree with you.

Where I disagree has to to with your use of terminology. In 1948, it was ARABS who fled the nascent state, not Palestinians. Palestinian identity had not been invented yet. Also, you use the term Nabkahr which also had not been invented yet, at least in terms of applying it the way you apply it. This is also a term crafted years afterward by Arab propagandists as they sought a language to evoke a similar reaction to the term Holocaust". You are retrofitting modern terms to fit a reality that did not exist yet.

Where I agree is that initially, Arabs we received by their fellow Arabs rather better than they are today, and that is because they were obviously the same people. Once Arafat was successful in creating this brand new people for the purpose of propaganda, they started to become a different people.

This conflict has never been about so- called Palestinians expressing their desire for a homeland. It has been about denying Jews theirs. This conflict is between Arab and Jews. 900000 Jews were driven from Arab lands, which extend over absolutely enormous swaths of land. Jews have but the tiniest little sliver for themselves and less land per capita to call their own than Arabs.

This whole business of "Palestinians" is just one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated in human history and is simply a propaganda ploy being used to get even more land for Arabs.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

Think I explained this to you.. Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict.

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills.

That's why...

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail..

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.

The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with. Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?

I do not complain about it because Isreal does not name its streets after mass murdering terrorists and doesn't run television shows on their state media using little mice to indoctrinate their children to be mass murdering psychopaths.

 

[Lastman]

The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

Think I explained this to you.. Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict.

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills.

That's why...

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail..

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.

The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with. Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?

I do not complain about it because Isreal does not name its streets after mass murdering terrorists and doesn't run television shows on their state media using little mice to indoctrinate their children to be mass murdering psychopaths.

Psychopathy cannot be taught. It's in the brain.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians get aid in the millions.

The Israelis get aid in the billions

Why?

Think I explained this to you.. Israel needs a missile defense system so that they can RESTRAIN their responses to missiles coming out of Gaza. It's a good deal. AND -- it cost $BILLs. Saves lives and conflict.

Similarly, Israel has an Air Force and actual military and THAT balancing presence saves conflict in the region
and keeps the larger conflicts from occurring. Not cheap. Any of that takes $Bills.

That's why...

I don't like pressuring the Palis into a Jared Kushner peace pact any more than you do. Because FORCING them into a unity government is a sorry ass plan doomed to fail..

But that's been the faulty logic behind US policy on peace here for 3 Admins now... It's the Two State solution that only 43% of Palestinians in Israel still favor.. THAT'S the problem. US foreign policy on this has sucked since Jimmy Carter.

The aid I was referring to was 3.1 Billion in economic aid, not military aid which I agree with. Why are those complaining about Palestinians recieving too much in aid utterly silent about that?

I do not complain about it because Isreal does not name its streets after mass murdering terrorists and doesn't run television shows on their state media using little mice to indoctrinate their children to be mass murdering psychopaths.

Actually They did name landmarks and streets after mass murdering terrorists.

 

[Coyote]

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .[/QUOTEthe term

The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .

The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.

I was speaking more of the present, but if we are to limit ourselves to 1948, I both agree and disagree with you.

Where I disagree has to to with your use of terminology. In 1948, it was ARABS who fled the nascent state, not Palestinians. Palestinian identity had not been invented yet. Also, you use the term Nabkahr which also had not been invented yet, at least in terms of applying it the way you apply it. This is also a term crafted years afterward by Arab propagandists as they sought a language to evoke a similar reaction to the term Holocaust". You are retrofitting modern terms to fit a reality that did not exist yet.

Where I agree is that initially, Arabs we received by their fellow Arabs rather better than they are today, and that is because they were obviously the same people. Once Arafat was successful in creating this brand new people for the purpose of propaganda, they started to become a different people.

This conflict has never been about so- called Palestinians expressing their desire for a homeland. It has been about denying Jews theirs. This conflict is between Arab and Jews. 900000 Jews were driven from Arab lands, which extend over absolutely enormous swaths of land. Jews have but the tiniest little sliver for themselves and less land per capita to call their own than Arabs.

This whole business of "Palestinians" is just one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated in human history and is simply a propaganda ploy being used to get even more land for Arabs.

They are a people now. Not a hoax. A people.

 

[Coyote]

I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population. Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. They have often ended up in reduced circumstances from where they were before and they hsve lost their communitees and connections to place.

Nice sound byte. Convince me. Name some States which were divided along ethnic lines and new countries formed where the population is worse off AFTER the division than before or during.

thete is a diffetence between dividing along ethnic lines and forced population transfers.

 

[Shusha]

I'd also like to point out, because I think its relevant, that in other conflicts of this nature (where two or more ethnic groups are competing for self-determination) what typically happened was a population exchange where each new State ended up with a relatively homogeneous population. Perhaps, had that happened when Palestine was split the first time (Israel and Jordan) we would have a very different conflict, or no conflict at all.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. They have often ended up in reduced circumstances from where they were before and they hsve lost their communitees and connections to place.

Nice sound byte. Convince me. Name some States which were divided along ethnic lines and new countries formed where the population is worse off AFTER the division than before or during.

thete is a diffetence between dividing along ethnic lines and forced population transfers.

Sure. So give me some examples. Convince me.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

]

Actually They did name landmarks and streets after mass murdering terrorists.

words have meanings, Coyote. A terrorist is a person who kills random civilians for a political purpose.

Guerilla war, on the other hand, involves the targeting of strategic military sites and centers of power .

Which Israeli streets are named after terrorists?

 

[Hollie]

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .[/QUOTEthe term

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.

I dont know...most forced population transfers have not ended well for those transferred. .

The 900,000 Jews who were forced from Arab lands are generally better off today than before they were forced out.

The only reason the 700,000 Arabs who fled the fledgling Jewish state at the behest of other Arabs aren't doing as well is because those other Arabs would rather use them as a wedge against Jews than take care of their own like the Jews did with theirs.

Actually the exodus from the 1948 Nakbahr, those initial Palestinians were treated quite well in the neighboring countries and largely fully assimilated. Wasn't until the PLO started instigating in Lebanon and Jordan that many of the Arab countries lost interest in their plight. Hence, their captivity in refugee camps with increasingly more difficult host country relations. Aid for THOSE 300,000 or so is also largely thru USAID pass-thrus and UN services. And to my knowledge, that aid has not been mucked with.

I was speaking more of the present, but if we are to limit ourselves to 1948, I both agree and disagree with you.

Where I disagree has to to with your use of terminology. In 1948, it was ARABS who fled the nascent state, not Palestinians. Palestinian identity had not been invented yet. Also, you use the term Nabkahr which also had not been invented yet, at least in terms of applying it the way you apply it. This is also a term crafted years afterward by Arab propagandists as they sought a language to evoke a similar reaction to the term Holocaust". You are retrofitting modern terms to fit a reality that did not exist yet.

Where I agree is that initially, Arabs we received by their fellow Arabs rather better than they are today, and that is because they were obviously the same people. Once Arafat was successful in creating this brand new people for the purpose of propaganda, they started to become a different people.

This conflict has never been about so- called Palestinians expressing their desire for a homeland. It has been about denying Jews theirs. This conflict is between Arab and Jews. 900000 Jews were driven from Arab lands, which extend over absolutely enormous swaths of land. Jews have but the tiniest little sliver for themselves and less land per capita to call their own than Arabs.

This whole business of "Palestinians" is just one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated in human history and is simply a propaganda ploy being used to get even more land for Arabs.

They are a people now. Not a hoax. A people.

I don’t see that as a convincing argument. I don’t find anything unique or colloquial that defines “Palestinians” from neighboring Arab-Moslem nationality or culture. I’ll also note that the PLO Charter makes continued and rather strident appeals to just how Arab, the Arab Palestinians were to be with “Arab’ism” being a central theme to the Charter.

Yassir Arafat (an Egyptian), proclaiming in the late 1960’s that “we are Palestinians”, well, that irony wasn’t lost on many.