Putin's red-line : don't allow Ukraine to fall in western hands and then get fortified by the west.

[peacefan]

The EU realizes it can't rely on America for protection. Now it has a blueprint for a new joint military force | CNN

The chaos at the border between Poland and Belarus is just the latest incident to get top brass in Brussels pondering what the European Union should do long-term about its internal security.

edition.cnn.com

video (11m) about how Putin is making a red-line out of losing Ukraine to the west and seeing it (like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) fortified by the west, what i publicly label here as a dangerous and total waste of defense tax money by the west, which is something that's and about to spring into high gear in both the Russian-NW and Russian-SW NATO-Russia fronts..

as a representative (citizen, actually) of The Netherlands and thus the EU and our UK friends, i formally object to this western fortification effort along Russia's western border (and, if this were to include Ukraine, open 2 very short land routes to the main Russian population centers.
because the only thing that that would achieve is a real need for the Russians to increase their arsenals as well,
and with that the risk of real conflict only increases.

if both sides have a massive arsenal of some type of weaponry pointed at eachother, it can promote and secure peace, like nuclear weapons do.

but it's utter political and military hubris and idiocy to think you can fortify 2 very wide fronts to your long time adversary's main population centers with military bases containing nearly every weapon type out there. that sh!t is just unacceptable, to anyone with even half a brain, and regardless of their profession too.

 

[Otis Mayfield]

It's about time the EU started thinking about its security.

Sheesh!

 

[peacefan]

and we will, as democrats, republicans and other political flavors that rule NATO according to the will of their peoples,
not be giving in to Communism, the Russians, or the Muslims for that matter. Like them, we will defend our right to live according to our own laws, in our own jurisdictions.

but achieving that needs to focus on diplomacy in international debate in circles ranging from very large to private rooms, and on intelligence gathering, followed by always-plenty-sufficient but never overwhelming arms production and stockpiling, and the avoiding of employing more offensive capable military personnel than is necessary to fully achieve and maintain MAD[1] capabilities, to prevent conventional wars between superpower rivals (of which there have been far too many already throughout the histories, and each was in it's day to day details rather ugly. i think we can all agree on *that*).

you do this to convince trustworthy adversaries' leaders that *you* can be trusted,
and to untrustworthy adversaries as a whole country or group of countries to convince *their* smarter people that you're not an actual threat to them. an untrustworthy adversary is going to have a lot harder time ramping up the total powers of their armies if their populations to not feel a need for such expenditure and risk for pre-emptive pruning attack.

[1] Mutually Assured Destruction : nuclear arms, chemical and biological weaponry, cyber weaponry on a national scale, and quite possible in other 'specialisms found in the military professions'.

 

[ESay]

It's about time the EU started thinking about its security.

Sheesh!

The EU thinking about their security? They have only one plan - surrender with preserving their benefits.

 

[Siberian]

let me describe to you current geopolitical situation so everybody's move will be absolutely transparent to you.

The World is in the middle of the giant, super crisis of overproduction, several times bigger than Great depression of 1929.

the final collapse is temporarily postponed with unprecedented emission of empty Dollars, Euros, British Pounds, Yen and Yuans.

But finally World production is going to shrink to 50-60% of current one. And for the World production triangle - EU-US-China it will also define their political future and level of economic catastrophe. The loser will lose everything, will desintegrate, civil war will start in the US and/or China, the EU will disintegrate etc - and the winner will expand its production, as in happened with post-Soviet space, expansion to which postponed the crisis of the West in 90s.

So, Trump was not crazy, he just voiced the real state of things, both the EU and China are deadly enemies to the US, they must be the ones who decrease their production.

Now, after Biden got Trumpish and finally started preparation for war with China (composition of AUKUS is the same as it was in Korean war of 1950 between the US and China) - the main 2 strategic goals for the US is to neutralize Russia prior to war with China and to prevent neutrality of Europe to China.

So, the US wants to ignite EU-Russia war to tie Russia's hands and keep it out of West-China conflict, to prevent Nord Stream-2 to get operational, to prevent independent position of Europe (and Germany first of all), and via conflict with Russia to pull Europe into anti-Chinese camp.

The US has 3 biggest puppets/serfs in Europe - the UK, Poland and Ukraine. All 3 are doing their best to provoke EU-Russia military conflict. Ukraine - intensifying military operation in Donbass, Poland - creating crisis on Belarus border, the UK violating Russian naval borders in Crimea and sending its troops to Ukraine and Poland.
And recently - another conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

The US is working hard to ignite chain of military conflicts on Russian borders and to draw Russia into them.

All this US fuss about Russian alleged intention to invade Ukraine is nothing but appointment of "responsible one" for planned Ukrainian provocation with ready to do list of actions proposed to the EU - new sanctions, first of all against Nord Stream. EU must not be independent of the US.

Merkel has successfully repelled all Anglo-Saxon efforts to stop Nord Stream. Now, if military conflict with Russia happens - Germany will have to castrate itself, rejecting Russian gas. EU will not be able to be independent from the US.

And EU will not be able to trade with China via Russia, and AUKUS will cut Chinese sea trade. This is what the US wants.

This is what geopolitics are now.

 

[peacefan]

The EU thinking about their security? They have only one plan - surrender with preserving their benefits.

nonsense. ever since Hitler's takeover attempt of Europe, we've resisted oppression of every kind to the max of our ability, and usually with success on our own. this goes down to the international and even the inter-city (via demonstrations that can grow violent) levels over here in Europe, by the way.

and now our governments are proposing that we add more of our own soldiers and military gear into that defense effort.
i think that's a good idea; we should not rely on others for our vital defense capabilities, and we maintain more control over the diplomatic aspects as well, which appears to be necessary, Americans.

You fought the war in Vietnam in nasty ways, creating many civilian casualties, and you haven't done much better (but each time using new types of mass-attrocities that hardly got reported on in western mass media news, or at least not with sufficient weight to ensure that such attrocities stop while the conflict was still ongoing).

So thank you for your efforts and expenditures and your sacrifices, Americans, but your methods create too much ideological hatred against all western people in all parts of the world that are not the west. Since we have a more diverse and continuously growing population set of immigrants from all over the world over here in Europe, i think Europe defending it's own territories according to European-local needs, is far better than hoping you Americans get things right in your foreign policy making.

 

[Siberian]

nonsense. ever since Hitler's takeover attempt of Europe, we've resisted oppression of every kind to the max of our ability, and usually with success on our own. this goes down to the international and even the inter-city (via demonstrations that can grow violent) levels over here in Europe, by the way.

and now our governments are proposing that we add more of our own soldiers and military gear into that defense effort.
i think that's a good idea; we should not rely on others for our vital defense capabilities, and we maintain more control over the diplomatic aspects as well, which appears to be necessary, Americans.

You fought the war in Vietnam in nasty ways, creating many civilian casualties, and you haven't done much better (but each time using new types of mass-attrocities that hardly got reported on in western mass media news, or at least not with sufficient weight to ensure that such attrocities stop while the conflict was still ongoing).

So thank you for your efforts and expenditures and your sacrifices, Americans, but your methods create too much ideological hatred against all western people in all parts of the world that are not the west. Since we have a more diverse and continuously growing population set of immigrants from all over the world over here in Europe, i think Europe defending it's own territories according to European-local needs, is far better than hoping you Americans get things right in your foreign policy making.

lol, esay is a Ukrainian, i. e he wants you to die fighting Russia in the war which Ukraine starts serving American interests..

 

[peacefan]

You Americans should also note that EU plans to grow it's own defense forces,
and possibly to defend their own territories in ways that more directly answer the needs of it's local populations,
does not mean we'll abandon our friendship with you, or that we won't back you up if you face an unreasonable or existential threat of some kind.

You'll be spending less on defense cost if you agree to these EU plans,
you'll see your EU allies grow more capable of backing *you* up should you ever need such help (not just with tanks and planes, but with medical, cyber and policing capabilities too),
and you will no longer be held responsible for any large scale regional war in Europe should it ever erupt.

we Europeans are quite capable of defending ourselves (dating back to the kicking out of Genghis Khan and even earlier), but aside from plantation and slavery colonies in the past, we've managed to refrain from making regional war far from our own borders.

you Americans however, have fought in countries all over the world for many years at a time, in brutal ways, to expand your form of government and business climate.
and what you're doing now, since the mid-1990s, the media, political and military buildups on the Russian-Western borders, has become unacceptable to at least some of us here in the rest of Europe, which automatically becomes the biggest credible threat against Russia in case of such buildups. people who know the basic truth that it is better to not fight or win without physically fighting.

 

[ESay]

nonsense. ever since Hitler's takeover attempt of Europe, we've resisted oppression of every kind to the max of our ability, and usually with success on our own. this goes down to the international and even the inter-city (via demonstrations that can grow violent) levels over here in Europe, by the way.

and now our governments are proposing that we add more of our own soldiers and military gear into that defense effort.
i think that's a good idea; we should not rely on others for our vital defense capabilities, and we maintain more control over the diplomatic aspects as well, which appears to be necessary, Americans.

You fought the war in Vietnam in nasty ways, creating many civilian casualties, and you haven't done much better (but each time using new types of mass-attrocities that hardly got reported on in western mass media news, or at least not with sufficient weight to ensure that such attrocities stop while the conflict was still ongoing).

So thank you for your efforts and expenditures and your sacrifices, Americans, but your methods create too much ideological hatred against all western people in all parts of the world that are not the west. Since we have a more diverse and continuously growing population set of immigrants from all over the world over here in Europe, i think Europe defending it's own territories according to European-local needs, is far better than hoping you Americans get things right in your foreign policy making.

Yeah, if I remember correctly the Dutch troops (you are from the Netherlands, right?) constituted the main part of the UN military forces in Bosnia in the times of genocide there. And of course they didn't raise a finger to prevent those atrocities . So, tell me more about your resolve.

I am not an American, btw.

 

[Siberian]

You Americans should also note that EU plans to grow it's own defense forces,
and possibly to defend their own territories in ways that more directly answer the needs of it's local populations,
does not mean we'll abandon our friendship with you, or that we won't back you up if you face an unreasonable or existential threat of some kind.

You'll be spending less on defense cost if you agree to these EU plans,
you'll see your EU allies grow more capable of backing *you* up should you ever need such help (not just with tanks and planes, but with medical, cyber and policing capabilities too),
and you will no longer be held responsible for any large scale regional war in Europe should it ever erupt.

we Europeans are quite capable of defending ourselves (dating back to the kicking out of Genghis Khan and even earlier), but aside from plantation and slavery colonies in the past, we've managed to refrain from making regional war far from our own borders.

you Americans however, have fought in countries all over the world for many years at a time, in brutal ways, to expand your form of government and business climate.
and what you're doing now, since the mid-1990s, the media, political and military buildups on the Russian-Western borders, has become unacceptable to at least some of us here in the rest of Europe, which automatically becomes the biggest credible threat against Russia in case of such buildups. people who know the basic truth that it is better to not fight or win without physically fighting.

Europe is irrelevant and this piece of useless, wishful thinking moaning is a perfect explanation why..
I have to echo Esay - Europe has the only plan for any war - to surrender, to let Russia save it from another dictator...

 

[zaangalewa]

It's only a decision of the people of the Ukrtaine and a decision of the people of the EU whether the Ukraine will become a part of the EU. But I guess the next step will be whether the people of Poland will decide to become a member of the EU at all.

 

[zaangalewa]

Europe is irrelevant and this piece of useless, wishful thinking moaning is a perfect explanation why..
I have to echo Esay - Europe has the only plan for any war - to surrender, to let Russia save it from another dictator...

Aha. And now? What do you do now with this opinion and some Rubel in Siberia? Hoping for the climate change and cold swamps instead of nice ice? What about to buy a book and to learn something? English for example. Or Russian?

 

[Siberian]

It's only a decision of the people of the Ukrtaine and a decision of the people of the EU whether the Ukraine will become a part of the EU. But I guess the next step will be whether the people of Poland will decide to become a member of the EU at all.

surprisingly, the EU does not want to feed Ukraine.

Association between the EU and Ukraine means Ukraine must open its market and get rid of own industry, without subsidies (EU organized a coup in 2014 when then president of Ukraine postponed signing of Euroassosiation agreement demanding proper compensation). It did not and does not mean feeding Ukraine
The West wants Russia to keep feeding Ukraine, including with keeping gas transit via Ukraine.

Russia will not, strategically - for 100%. We are building now LNG plants, and a pipeline to China from the very gas province which supplies Europe. So, even if Nord Stream is not operational (and it will get operational this winter, if Europe doesn't want to freeze to death) - strategically in a couple of years there will be no gas transit via Ukraine. And it will stop to exist, because without Russian subsidies it is not economically capable of living. While the US and the EU don't want to spend money to keep it alive.

 

[Siberian]

Aha. And now? What do you do now with this opinion and some Rubel in Siberia? Hoping for the climate change and cold swamps instead of nice ice? What about to buy a book and to learn something? English for example. Or Russian?

Thank you we are ok here, while the EU is a dead alive, EU is going to disintergate soon.

I travelled a lot this year in Russian regions from Crimea to Finnish border, i. e. from far South to far North, thousands of kilometers, I was greately surprised with quality of Russian roads, they are better now than ones in Europe.

You must be a Russian to really understand extent of my surprise and significance of this state of things

I rediscovered Russia for myself, we are a really beautiful country with still not very prosperous, but hard working and doing well population. And in great shape, I thought of Russia much worse, it was really a big surprise. Auful 90s are over, we are going up and up and up, unlike the West.

 

[zaangalewa]

surprisingly, the EU does not want to feed Ukraine.

Why for heavens sake says someone such a stupidity? Not a long time ago the brutal tyrant Lukashenko threatened Ukrainian patriots in his prisons to amputate their arms and legs.

Association between the EU and Ukraine means Ukraine must open its market and get rid of own industry, without subsidies (EU organized a coup in 2014 when then president of Ukraine postponed signing of Euroassosiation agreement demanding proper compensation). It did not and does not mean feeding Ukraine
The West wants Russia to keep feeding Ukraine, including with keeping gas transit via Ukraine.

Russia will not, strategically - for 100%. We are building now LNG plants, and a pipeline to China from the very gas province which supplies Europe. So, even if Nord Stream is not operational (and it will get operational this winter, if Europe doesn't want to freeze to death) - strategically in a couple of years there will be no gas transit via Ukraine. And it will stop to exist, because without Russian subsidies it is not economically capable of living. While the US and the EU don't want to spend money to keep it alive.

When did you say you will do the whole world the favor to exterminate the illegal dictator Lukashenko and his brutal gang?

 

[zaangalewa]

Thank you we are ok here, while the EU is a dead alive, EU is going to disintergate soon.

I travelled a lot this year in Russian regions from Crimea to Finnish border, i. e. from far South to far North, thousands of kilometers, I was greately surprised with quality of Russian roads, they are better now than ones in Europe.

You must be a Russian to really understand extent of my surprise and significance of this state of things

I rediscovered Russia for myself, we are a really beautiful country with still not very prosperous, but hard working and doing well population. And in great shape, I thought of Russia much worse, it was really a big surprise. Auful

awful

90s are over,

The 90ies had been a wonderful time.

we are going up and up and up, unlike the West.

The criminal mass murderers Lenin and Stalin are seen meanwhile again as national heroes in Russia, isn't it?

 

[Siberian]

Why for heavens sake says someone such a stupidity? Not a long time ago the brutal tyrant Lukashenko threatened Ukrainian patriots in his prisons to amputate their arms and legs.



When did you say you will do the whole world the favor to exterminate the illegal dictator Lukashenko and his brutal gang?

after Europe amputated heads of Ukrainian patriots Lukashenko cannot do any harm to them
but I wonder where do you get all this wild nonsense from? is European warmongering propaganda such idiotic? but can such stupidity be accepted by common Europeans?

 

[zaangalewa]

after Europe amputated heads of Ukrainian patriots Lukashenko cannot do any harm to them

I thought about to send him a cruise missile directly into his ass. For his luck I found no cruise missile in my very old cellar. I found only an old sword in an oaken box where's written on in silver letters: "With best greetings and wishes from Merlin"- ah sorry: "from Alkuin" (Alchoin). Will be interesting to see what will happen if I will let fly it on magic wings.

but I wonder where do you get all this wild nonsense from? is European warmongering propaganda such idiotic? but can such stupidity be accepted by common Europeans?

 

[Siberian]

I thought about to send him a cruise missile directly into his ass. For his luck I found no cruise missile in my very old cellar. I found only an old sword in an oaken box where's written on in silver letters: "With best greetings and wishes from Merlin"- ah sorry: "from Alkuin" (Alchoin). Will be interesting to see what will happen if I will let fly it on magic wings.

it's good Amedicans keep you warmongering magic warriors away from any decision making

 

[zaangalewa]

it's good Amedicans keep you warmongering magic warriors away from any decision making

I am not an American.