Price Is No Longer an Obstacle to Clean Power

[Crick]

Weather forecast wasn't very helpful, was it?

With what? A ten day projection of cloud cover? I'm quite certain the operators of every solar PV field in the world are constantly looking at their forecasts.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

With what? A ten day projection of cloud cover? I'm quite certain the operators of every solar PV field in the world are constantly looking at their forecasts.

Not helpful with providing 24/7 power with solar.

 

[Crick]

Not helpful with providing 24/7 power with solar.

Of course it helps to provide consistent power to their customers and not be caught unawares like, apparently, the natural gas plants in California were by the demand from the heat wave.

 

[jc456]

Of course it helps to provide consistent power to their customers and not be caught unawares like, apparently, the natural gas plants in California were by the demand from the heat wave.

And solar panels failed

 

[Crick]

And solar panels failed

They did not. None of them failed. They ran out of "fuel" when the sun went down, but when the sun came back up they resumed operation with no maintenance required. The same could not be said of the multiple natural gas plants that DID fail under the load.

 

[jc456]

They did not. None of them failed. They ran out of "fuel" when the sun went down, but when the sun came back up they resumed operation with no maintenance required. The same could not be said of the multiple natural gas plants that DID fail under the load.

Failed. They weren’t available

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Of course it helps to provide consistent power to their customers and not be caught unawares like, apparently, the natural gas plants in California were by the demand from the heat wave.

Of course it helps to provide consistent power to their customers

How is a few hours of intermittent power helping to provide consistent power?

Do you know what consistent even means? What about dispatchable generation?

 

[Crick]

Of course it helps to provide consistent power to their customers

How is a few hours of intermittent power helping to provide consistent power?

Do you know what consistent even means? What about dispatchable generation?

Because it tells them when they might need to provide other sources, of course. Todd, you're starting to look a little desperate. You're not going to get me to turn tail by endlessly repeating "the sun also sets".

 

[jc456]

Because it tells them when they might need to provide other sources, of course. Todd, you're starting to look a little desperate. You're not going to get me to turn tail by endlessly repeating "the sun also sets".

Feel like you’re backed into a corner there partner?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Because it tells them when they might need to provide other sources, of course. Todd, you're starting to look a little desperate. You're not going to get me to turn tail by endlessly repeating "the sun also sets".

Other sources? Because solar isn't reliable? Good to know.

Todd, you're starting to look a little desperate.

Why would unreliable solar make me desperate?

Why do we need dispatchable generation? Doesn't wind and solar qualify?

 

[Crick]

Other sources? Because solar isn't reliable? Good to know.

Todd, you're starting to look a little desperate.

Why would unreliable solar make me desperate?

Why do we need dispatchable generation? Doesn't wind and solar qualify?

I haven't the faintest idea what you intend by the term "dispatchable"

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I haven't the faintest idea what you intend by the term "dispatchable"

Clearly.

 

[Crick]

Clearly.

Do you, perhaps, mean PORTABLE? I have spec'ed the purchase of three, 150 kVA PORTABLE diesel generators and leased several more when I was working and no one ever called them "dispatachable".

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Do you, perhaps, mean PORTABLE? I have spec'ed the purchase of three, 150 kVA PORTABLE diesel generators and leased several more when I was working and no one ever called them "dispatachable".

Dispatchable generation refers to sources of electricity that can be programmed on demand at the request of power grid operators, according to market needs. Dispatchable generators may adjust their power output according to an order.[1] Non-dispatchable renewable energy sources such as wind power and solar photovoltaic (PV) power cannot be controlled by operators.[2] Other types of renewable energy that are dispatchable without separate energy storage are hydroelectric, biomass, geothermal and ocean thermal energy conversion.[3]

Dispatchable generation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Crick]

Dispatchable generation refers to sources of electricity that can be programmed on demand at the request of power grid operators, according to market needs. Dispatchable generators may adjust their power output according to an order.[1] Non-dispatchable renewable energy sources such as wind power and solar photovoltaic (PV) power cannot be controlled by operators.[2] Other types of renewable energy that are dispatchable without separate energy storage are hydroelectric, biomass, geothermal and ocean thermal energy conversion.[3]

Dispatchable generation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why thank you Todd. I've never heard of them. Wind and solar can certainly adjust their output downward. They are controlled.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why thank you Todd. I've never heard of them. Wind and solar can certainly adjust their output downward. They are controlled.

You can adjust turbine output down by changing the angle of the blade or by taking it offline.
Solar, probably by taking it offline. Tracking ones you could move them to a less efficient angle.

How do you take either of them up?

What if a weather forecast shows slower winds or more clouds over the next 3 days?

How do you make up for that reduced output?

You can't just put 10% less power through the wires, most modern equipment won't handle that.

 

[Crick]

You can adjust turbine output down by changing the angle of the blade or by taking it offline.
Solar, probably by taking it offline. Tracking ones you could move them to a less efficient angle.

How do you take either of them up?

What if a weather forecast shows slower winds or more clouds over the next 3 days?

How do you make up for that reduced output?

You can't just put 10% less power through the wires, most modern equipment won't handle that.

If it has been taken down, it can be returned to a higher power output. Just as a gas or steam turbine cannot produce more than 100% power, a PV panel cannot produce more energy than the incoming light will allow. They all have limits. So what do you do if your gas turbine can't make enough power to satisfy your need. You could bring some wind turbines or solar fields online. Free fuel. Much less maintenance. Just depends on your PoV.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If it has been taken down, it can be returned to a higher power output. Just as a gas or steam turbine cannot produce more than 100% power, a PV panel cannot produce more energy than the incoming light will allow. They all have limits. So what do you do if your gas turbine can't make enough power to satisfy your need. You could bring some wind turbines or solar fields online. Free fuel. Much less maintenance. Just depends on your PoV.

If it has been taken down, it can be returned to a higher power output.

Can't be taken higher than full output, can it?
If the field of solar panels is going to see a dip in an hour,
how do you ramp up the wind field next door?

So, what do you do if your gas turbine can't make enough power to satisfy your need.

Gas turbine? What is a gas turbine doing in our glorious "green" future?

 

[Crick]

If it has been taken down, it can be returned to a higher power output.

Can't be taken higher than full output, can it?

Neither can a gas turbine or a coal furnace.

If the field of solar panels is going to see a dip in an hour,
how do you ramp up the wind field next door?

Weather forecasts will give you far more than one hour's warning. And there is no requirement to rely on "the wind field next door". You can go to the wind field in the next state or the solar field in the next county that happens to be sitting in full sunshine.

So, what do you do if your gas turbine can't make enough power to satisfy your need.

Gas turbine? What is a gas turbine doing in our glorious "green" future?

Just pointing out that the core of your criticism here of wind and solar applies equally to every other means of generating power. They all have limits and none are guaranteed to always meet demand.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Neither can a gas turbine or a coal furnace.

Weather forecasts will give you far more than one hour's warning. And there is no requirement to rely on "the wind field next door". You can go to the wind field in the next state or the solar field in the next county that happens to be sitting in full sunshine.

Just pointing out that the core of your criticism here of wind and solar applies equally to every other means of generating power. They all have limits and none are guaranteed to always meet demand.

Neither can a gas turbine or a coal furnace.

Yeah, but the coal or gas plant isn't going to be fluctuating up and down on its own
when it gets cloudy or calm, while the demand remains constant.

Weather forecasts will give you far more than one hour's warning.

Again, when the 4 hour forecast shows your solar input is going to drop 30% (or whatever),
how is your other green energy going to ramp up? Unless you're burning biomass. Are you?

You can go to the wind field in the next state or the solar field in the next county that happens to be sitting in full sunshine.

How much extra capacity are you building into these out of state wind and solar fields?
Are they going to be twice as big, in case you need some extra juice? Three times?

Just pointing out that the core of your criticism here of wind and solar applies equally to every other means of generating power.

Equally?
When is a cloudy day or a calm day going to cut nat gas power by 30%? Or nuclear or coal?