CDZ Poverty, what it is between a capitalist society and socialist/communistic society.

[Blues Man]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

no rich person ever made a poor person poor.

the reality is that there is no one stopping anyone from improving their own financial position.

there are too many people who have risen above the station of their birth in this country to deny that the possibility of bettering one's financial position is not only possible but also doable.

 

[initforme]

Poverty is anything under 50 thousand dollars per year annual income in america today.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Poverty is anything under 50 thousand dollars per year annual income in america today.

HIlarious... by your absurd definition, most Americans are in poverty. Most.
Laughable

 

[Donald H]

HIlarious... by your absurd definition, most Americans are in poverty. Most.
Laughable

Poverty as compared to the world's leading democracies, not as compared to Haiti, quite yet.
Poverty of the working class in a nation that is the richest country in the world, and in which the wealth is all in the hands of the very wealthy, leaving the working American poor.

America's quality of life is rated at 15th. in the world. That's much higher than Haiti if that's the comparison you're content with.

And obviously the people are far from content as they fight between themselves over the very issue of poverty and even a lack of affordable health care for all! .

 

[iamwhatiseem]

HIlarious... by your absurd definition, most Americans are in poverty. Most.
Laughable

Poverty as compared to the world's leading democracies, not as compared to Haiti, quite yet.
Poverty of the working class in a nation that is the richest country in the world, and in which the wealth is all in the hands of the very wealthy, leaving the working American poor.

America's quality of life is rated at 15th. in the world. That's much higher than Haiti if that's the comparison you're content with.

And obviously the people are far from content as they fight between themselves over the very issue of poverty and even a lack of affordable health care for all! .

All sorts of problems with your post.
1) America's consistent low rating.... obvious jealous bullshit. America, year after year takes in more immigrants than any other country on earth. Everyone wants to come here.
2) Once again, you ignore, and because you are liberal - you will continue to ignore, is you cannot compare America to other nations, in particular European nations. WE GIVE THEM $BILLIONS. They gives us nothing. They don't have to worry about a high military budget - BECAUSE WE SUPPLY THAT FOR THEM. So obviously countries that our useless, corrupt government gives $billions to EVERY YEAR and provide military protection to - have more money for social programs. But, like I say - you will make the same comparison many more times because you are a liberal sheep.
3) The poorest in America are better off than the wealthy in many nations. But more importantly, the middle class lifestyle is far-far superior in both quality and opportunity than ANY European nation. The middle class in Britian? Is basically our low-middle class. The middle class in France? will afford you a very basic/bare tiny apartment usually with no elevator. We have elevators even in public housing. Middle class in Germany? The average apartment in Germany is 587 sq. ft.
On and on and on and on... the poor in America have it better than most other countries "middle class" - and THAT is why everyone wants to come here.

Get over it.

 

[Donald H]

Get over it.

I got over it and then I found that Germany is rated at #10 on quality of life, while America is rated at #15.

But, but, but, it could all be a commie lie to destroy the American way and turn it into a communist state with a commie under every American bed?

Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life | News

For the fifth year in a row, Canada is ranked the #1 country in the world in 2020 for Quality of Life, according to a global ranking from US News.

dailyhive.com

I know it's hard to understand when we both know that America is the richest country in the world. But the lack of understanding is because it's not understood by Americans that the wealth is nearly all in the hands of the very wealthy. Two top billionaires hold the equivalent wealth as does the poorest half of the people! 165,000,000 people!

If you're happy with that then let it stand. I, as a Canadian would actually prefer it stands the way it is because it's hugely in China's interests to see Americans fighting and shooting each other on a daily basis.
Best wishes from Canada.

 

[Donald H]

Canada ranked #1 country in the world for Quality of Life | News

For the fifth year in a row, Canada is ranked the #1 country in the world in 2020 for Quality of Life, according to a global ranking from US News.

dailyhive.com

See my link for an explanation on what 'quality of life' means and on how ratings are decided. It's going to ring a bell for most Americans on why their country has descended so far down the ladder.

And also notice that China is now #19 and rising quickly. They could overtake America in the next few years if the ongoing fascination with Trump isn't thrown out at the same time his fat a-- is booted out of the people's WH!

 

[otto105]

I wrote this in another thread, but decided it needs it's own.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe.

In a capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.

What is the living standard of Norway?

How has China’s living standard changed in the last 40 years?

 

[Donald H]

I wrote this in another thread, but decided it needs it's own.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe.

In a capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.

What is the living standard of Norway?

How has China’s living standard changed in the last 40 years?

My link answers both of your questions. Norway is 4th. China is 19th. and that a long way from where they were when they started to take over as the world's leading economy.

Communism that doesn't allow the people to be cheated out of a piece of the pie in Chinia is likely the only system that will work in the 21st. century for countries with large populations.
And while practicing capitalism without the US greed built in.

Is America providing a high standard of living for it's people? American propagandized and shrunken heads will say so!

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I wrote this in another thread, but decided it needs it's own.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe.

In a capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.

What is the living standard of Norway?

How has China’s living standard changed in the last 40 years?

My link answers both of your questions. Norway is 4th. China is 19th. and that a long way from where they were when they started to take over as the world's leading economy.

Communism that doesn't allow the people to be cheated out of a piece of the pie in Chinia is likely the only system that will work in the 21st. century for countries with large populations.
And while practicing capitalism without the US greed built in.

Is America providing a high standard of living for it's people? American propagandized and shrunken heads will say so!

Hahaha....

"Cheated out of the pie".... READ... "other people's stuff they worked for that I want for free".

You are the typical 20 something hipster who just don't want to work for a living. But rather live off of other people's work and success.

Good bye

 

[Donald H]

Hahaha....

"Cheated out of the pie".... READ... "other people's stuff they worked for that I want for free".[/quote]

"I" don't want for anything and if I did I would go out and buy it. I'm a moderately wealthy Canadian and I'm far from being young.

You are the typical 20 something hipster who just don't want to work for a living. But rather live off of other people's work and success.

Actually I'm retired but worked hard for my money and was paid a fair wage, or also ran a good profitable business.

Good bye

Not so fast my friend! Both small and big business have bills to pay to the workers who made them profitable and to the country that provided them the opportunity to succeed.

All of what a business earns isn't their money to keep! Thinking it's theirs is just a well used line that extreme rightists have learned to spew out when they need to condemn their fellow Americans who are only wanting a fair share of the American pie.

And now you're all spewing hate against your fellow Americans because Trump lied to you and snookered you into thinking you aren't deserving.

We need to talk about it and this is a good place to do it.

best wishes from Canada. (the country with the highest quality of life in the world)

 

[2aguy]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

Answer this question.... did you know that America paid for about 75% of Frances TOTAL healthcare cost in 2019 *?
Or did you know that America paid ALL of Britain's? Every dime, and then some.
I am going to say you don't. Obviously.
Unfortunately our government has turned our country into the "Dining Room Buffet" of the world. Where other countries line up for the cash machine and devour OUR tax payer dollars.
So you cannot simply start saying "look at these "MORE RESPONSIBLE NATIONS" and what they do - without the knowledge that America finances most of it.


* (in 2019 France spent $3.2 billion in healthcare, America gave France $2.3 billion) Brookings Institute.

Yep...and without the U.S. the wonderful healthcare systems of Europe and around the world would have collapsed decades ago........

 

[2aguy]

Deflect much?
"latest excuse".... not at all. It has been said 1000's of times. Nay, 100,000's of times.
And this thread isn't about healthcare. It is about what poverty ACTUALLY is in socialism/communism, and what it is in a market system.
But I understand very well why you want to talk about something other than that

If somebody tries to deflect the topic to health care and then starts making pathetic excuses for why America's system has failed, I'll follow the lead if it's considered as inclusive to the topic.

The healthcare systems of Europe are also failing.....and only exit today because America pays for the national defense of Europe, as well as all the medical and technological innovation they use....without us, their healthcare systems would have collapsed already...

 

[2aguy]

Let's be real, upward mobility has been virtually shut down by the usurous student loan industry.

It has been designed to do just that too. The employers today don't want ambition. They want complete subservience.

Remember, that communism is only ever seriously disgussed where people have been living in deadly slave-like conditions.

As with the rubber plantations of Vietnam.

As with the hacienda system in Latin America.

As with people being wantonly exposed to plague by evil managers who make wagers on who dies first.

1) The student loan industry, and I can appreciate you also see it that way, because that is what it is, is a system developed by mostly Democrats that predictably resulted in disastrous consequences for students/parents and a HUGE win for pockets of the college system in America. Liberalism at it's core is a policy system based on idealism. This system was developed based on an IDEA that "everyone should go to college". The end result was skyrocketing tuition and student housing. Nearly overnight, colleges dramatically increased their housing units to take advantage of the government paying for not only tuition - but housing also. And the profits off of these quad units is astronomical.
2) "Employers don't want ambition" - God that is just stupid. I don't know how else to put it. I would guess you are referring to what they want from the lowest rung of employment... such as a burger flipper. You would be right, they don't need ambition from burger flippers. They just need them to flip the burgers when the beeping tells them to. But in ALL other types of jobs of course they want ambition, but not without a serious work ethic to go along with it.
3) Everything else you say... not sure where you are going with it, or the point.

Largely agree about liberalism and student loans.

As to the employers want ambition, not anymore. The modern workplace has become increasingly about enforced mediocrity, and removing all ownership of a job well done--whatever it takes to keep people "in their place.". Kids today don't fear communism, because it is what they have already been experiencing in the workplace

Kids today have no clue about reality.
Especially on economic principles.
Seriously, how clueless does one STILL have to be to say socialism is better than a market system??
FFS - every single example throughout the history of mankind - socialism/communism results in widespread - grinding poverty people have no ability to get out of, and countries that got out of communism and moved towards a market based system - improved the lives of their citizens 10 fold.

Don't forget the mass graves.......goon squads.........the hallmark of socialism/communism.

 

[2aguy]

HIlarious... by your absurd definition, most Americans are in poverty. Most.
Laughable

Poverty as compared to the world's leading democracies, not as compared to Haiti, quite yet.
Poverty of the working class in a nation that is the richest country in the world, and in which the wealth is all in the hands of the very wealthy, leaving the working American poor.

America's quality of life is rated at 15th. in the world. That's much higher than Haiti if that's the comparison you're content with.

And obviously the people are far from content as they fight between themselves over the very issue of poverty and even a lack of affordable health care for all! .

All sorts of problems with your post.
1) America's consistent low rating.... obvious jealous bullshit. America, year after year takes in more immigrants than any other country on earth. Everyone wants to come here.
2) Once again, you ignore, and because you are liberal - you will continue to ignore, is you cannot compare America to other nations, in particular European nations. WE GIVE THEM $BILLIONS. They gives us nothing. They don't have to worry about a high military budget - BECAUSE WE SUPPLY THAT FOR THEM. So obviously countries that our useless, corrupt government gives $billions to EVERY YEAR and provide military protection to - have more money for social programs. But, like I say - you will make the same comparison many more times because you are a liberal sheep.
3) The poorest in America are better off than the wealthy in many nations. But more importantly, the middle class lifestyle is far-far superior in both quality and opportunity than ANY European nation. The middle class in Britian? Is basically our low-middle class. The middle class in France? will afford you a very basic/bare tiny apartment usually with no elevator. We have elevators even in public housing. Middle class in Germany? The average apartment in Germany is 587 sq. ft.
On and on and on and on... the poor in America have it better than most other countries "middle class" - and THAT is why everyone wants to come here.

Get over it.

If the countries of Europe actually paid for their own national defense, they would have to shut down their healthcare systems....

 

[iamwhatiseem]

HIlarious... by your absurd definition, most Americans are in poverty. Most.
Laughable

Poverty as compared to the world's leading democracies, not as compared to Haiti, quite yet.
Poverty of the working class in a nation that is the richest country in the world, and in which the wealth is all in the hands of the very wealthy, leaving the working American poor.

America's quality of life is rated at 15th. in the world. That's much higher than Haiti if that's the comparison you're content with.

And obviously the people are far from content as they fight between themselves over the very issue of poverty and even a lack of affordable health care for all! .

All sorts of problems with your post.
1) America's consistent low rating.... obvious jealous bullshit. America, year after year takes in more immigrants than any other country on earth. Everyone wants to come here.
2) Once again, you ignore, and because you are liberal - you will continue to ignore, is you cannot compare America to other nations, in particular European nations. WE GIVE THEM $BILLIONS. They gives us nothing. They don't have to worry about a high military budget - BECAUSE WE SUPPLY THAT FOR THEM. So obviously countries that our useless, corrupt government gives $billions to EVERY YEAR and provide military protection to - have more money for social programs. But, like I say - you will make the same comparison many more times because you are a liberal sheep.
3) The poorest in America are better off than the wealthy in many nations. But more importantly, the middle class lifestyle is far-far superior in both quality and opportunity than ANY European nation. The middle class in Britian? Is basically our low-middle class. The middle class in France? will afford you a very basic/bare tiny apartment usually with no elevator. We have elevators even in public housing. Middle class in Germany? The average apartment in Germany is 587 sq. ft.
On and on and on and on... the poor in America have it better than most other countries "middle class" - and THAT is why everyone wants to come here.

Get over it.

If the countries of Europe actually paid for their own national defense, they would have to shut down their healthcare systems....

Not to mention the $billions in direct cash payouts they get from America thanks to our corrupt federal government.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

China is a deplorable system based on forced/slave labor.

Modern China is NOT based on forced/slave labor. You need to learn more about China yourself.

I do not defend Donald H ’s rose-colored view of China (or Cuba or Venezuela) but workers in China are free to change jobs and do so frequently. The extremely rapid increase in China salaries overall in the last decades, despite the lack of independent trade unions, is noted by all serious studies. The economy and construction of a whole new infrastructure for the nation has grown so quickly that there are jobs — not all decent paying of course, but far better than in the past.

Corruption, bureaucracy, lack of democracy in this authoritarian one-party system, these have negative consequences for sure. But the system is not based on slave labor, commune labor or prison labor. The latter does exist, but it exists in the U.S. as well, and the U.S. has a far larger prison population per capita.

I am not talking about systems here — so called capitalism vs. communism or socialism — but about actual empirical reality. The greatest and most rapid decline in deep poverty in the world has occurred in our lifetimes in China — and not through “slave labor.” This much we all ought to acknowledge.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

China is a deplorable system based on forced/slave labor.

Modern China is NOT based on forced/slave labor. You need to learn more about China yourself.

I do not defend Donald H ’s rose-colored view of China (or Cuba or Venezuela) but workers in China are free to change jobs and do so frequently. The extremely rapid increase in China salaries overall in the last decades, despite the lack of independent trade unions, is noted by all serious studies. The economy and construction of a whole new infrastructure for the nation has grown so quickly that there are jobs — not all decent paying of course, but far better than in the past.

Corruption, bureaucracy, lack of democracy in this authoritarian one-party system, these have negative consequences for sure. But the system is not based on slave labor, commune labor or prison labor. The latter does exist, but it exists in the U.S. as well, and the U.S. has a far larger prison population per capita.

I am not talking about systems here — so called capitalism vs. communism or socialism — but about actual empirical reality. The greatest and most rapid decline in deep poverty in the world has occurred in our lifetimes in China — and not through “slave labor.” This much we all ought to acknowledge.

I don't think so.
Again, all one has to do is look at China's massive wine industry. The field workers were taken from their villages and forced to work in the vinyards. It is quite hard to get information on this because pretty obvious Google protects China. Obviously Foxconn uses forced labor, Nike has a loong history of it.
You can go on. All of these industries became successful due to forced labor at pitiful - pitiful wages.

China: 83 major brands implicated in report on forced labour of ethnic minorities from Xinjiang assigned to factories across provinces; Includes company responses - Business & Human Rights Resource Centre

www.business-humanrights.org

 

[Agit8r]

Let's be real, upward mobility has been virtually shut down by the usurous student loan industry.

It has been designed to do just that too. The employers today don't want ambition. They want complete subservience.

Remember, that communism is only ever seriously disgussed where people have been living in deadly slave-like conditions.

As with the rubber plantations of Vietnam.

As with the hacienda system in Latin America.

As with people being wantonly exposed to plague by evil managers who make wagers on who dies first.

1) The student loan industry, and I can appreciate you also see it that way, because that is what it is, is a system developed by mostly Democrats that predictably resulted in disastrous consequences for students/parents and a HUGE win for pockets of the college system in America. Liberalism at it's core is a policy system based on idealism. This system was developed based on an IDEA that "everyone should go to college". The end result was skyrocketing tuition and student housing. Nearly overnight, colleges dramatically increased their housing units to take advantage of the government paying for not only tuition - but housing also. And the profits off of these quad units is astronomical.
2) "Employers don't want ambition" - God that is just stupid. I don't know how else to put it. I would guess you are referring to what they want from the lowest rung of employment... such as a burger flipper. You would be right, they don't need ambition from burger flippers. They just need them to flip the burgers when the beeping tells them to. But in ALL other types of jobs of course they want ambition, but not without a serious work ethic to go along with it.
3) Everything else you say... not sure where you are going with it, or the point.

Largely agree about liberalism and student loans.

As to the employers want ambition, not anymore. The modern workplace has become increasingly about enforced mediocrity, and removing all ownership of a job well done--whatever it takes to keep people "in their place.". Kids today don't fear communism, because it is what they have already been experiencing in the workplace

Kids today have no clue about reality.
Especially on economic principles.
Seriously, how clueless does one STILL have to be to say socialism is better than a market system??
FFS - every single example throughout the history of mankind - socialism/communism results in widespread - grinding poverty people have no ability to get out of, and countries that got out of communism and moved towards a market based system - improved the lives of their citizens 10 fold.

There is confusion because right wingers call every useful function of government "Commienist"

 

[sartre play]

The first mistake we make is that the only choice we have is between Communism & Capitalism