CDZ Poverty, what it is between a capitalist society and socialist/communistic society.

[Donald H]

China is a deplorable system based on forced/slave labor.

Modern China is NOT based on forced/slave labor. You need to learn more about China yourself.

I do not defend Donald H ’s rose-colored view of China (or Cuba or Venezuela) but workers in China are free to change jobs and do so frequently. The extremely rapid increase in China salaries overall in the last decades, despite the lack of independent trade unions, is noted by all serious studies. The economy and construction of a whole new infrastructure for the nation has grown so quickly that there are jobs — not all decent paying of course, but far better than in the past.

Corruption, bureaucracy, lack of democracy in this authoritarian one-party system, these have negative consequences for sure. But the system is not based on slave labor, commune labor or prison labor. The latter does exist, but it exists in the U.S. as well, and the U.S. has a far larger prison population per capita.

I am not talking about systems here — so called capitalism vs. communism or socialism — but about actual empirical reality. The greatest and most rapid decline in deep poverty in the world has occurred in our lifetimes in China — and not through “slave labor.” This much we all ought to acknowledge.

I don't say everything is rose-coloured in those countries and it's not fair to quote me as saying that. I am saying that all the countries you mentioned could be performing at their best possible level if it wasn't for US interference and dirty tricks. China has a history of terrible treatement for centuries and not just by the US of course. The others can blame the US.

On democracy vs. communism in countries that practice capitalism, I have quite a bit to say about which can succeed in the 21st. century. It's something I would like to discuss with anybody who has a genuine interest in hearing it. Keeping in mind I'm a Canadian who values my democracy and understands that it needs to be carefully nurtured along.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Let's be real, upward mobility has been virtually shut down by the usurous student loan industry.

It has been designed to do just that too. The employers today don't want ambition. They want complete subservience.

Remember, that communism is only ever seriously disgussed where people have been living in deadly slave-like conditions.

As with the rubber plantations of Vietnam.

As with the hacienda system in Latin America.

As with people being wantonly exposed to plague by evil managers who make wagers on who dies first.

1) The student loan industry, and I can appreciate you also see it that way, because that is what it is, is a system developed by mostly Democrats that predictably resulted in disastrous consequences for students/parents and a HUGE win for pockets of the college system in America. Liberalism at it's core is a policy system based on idealism. This system was developed based on an IDEA that "everyone should go to college". The end result was skyrocketing tuition and student housing. Nearly overnight, colleges dramatically increased their housing units to take advantage of the government paying for not only tuition - but housing also. And the profits off of these quad units is astronomical.
2) "Employers don't want ambition" - God that is just stupid. I don't know how else to put it. I would guess you are referring to what they want from the lowest rung of employment... such as a burger flipper. You would be right, they don't need ambition from burger flippers. They just need them to flip the burgers when the beeping tells them to. But in ALL other types of jobs of course they want ambition, but not without a serious work ethic to go along with it.
3) Everything else you say... not sure where you are going with it, or the point.

Largely agree about liberalism and student loans.

As to the employers want ambition, not anymore. The modern workplace has become increasingly about enforced mediocrity, and removing all ownership of a job well done--whatever it takes to keep people "in their place.". Kids today don't fear communism, because it is what they have already been experiencing in the workplace

Kids today have no clue about reality.
Especially on economic principles.
Seriously, how clueless does one STILL have to be to say socialism is better than a market system??
FFS - every single example throughout the history of mankind - socialism/communism results in widespread - grinding poverty people have no ability to get out of, and countries that got out of communism and moved towards a market based system - improved the lives of their citizens 10 fold.

There is confusion because right wingers call every useful function of government "Commienist"

No.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

China is a deplorable system based on forced/slave labor.

Modern China is NOT based on forced/slave labor. You need to learn more about China yourself.

I do not defend Donald H ’s rose-colored view of China (or Cuba or Venezuela) but workers in China are free to change jobs and do so frequently. The extremely rapid increase in China salaries overall in the last decades, despite the lack of independent trade unions, is noted by all serious studies. The economy and construction of a whole new infrastructure for the nation has grown so quickly that there are jobs — not all decent paying of course, but far better than in the past.

Corruption, bureaucracy, lack of democracy in this authoritarian one-party system, these have negative consequences for sure. But the system is not based on slave labor, commune labor or prison labor. The latter does exist, but it exists in the U.S. as well, and the U.S. has a far larger prison population per capita.

I am not talking about systems here — so called capitalism vs. communism or socialism — but about actual empirical reality. The greatest and most rapid decline in deep poverty in the world has occurred in our lifetimes in China — and not through “slave labor.” This much we all ought to acknowledge.

I don't say everything is rose-coloured in those countries and it's not fair to quote me as saying that. I am saying that all the countries you mentioned could be performing at their best possible level if it wasn't for US interference and dirty tricks. China has a history of terrible treatement for centuries and not just by the US of course. The others can blame the US.

On democracy vs. communism in countries that practice capitalism, I have quite a bit to say about which can succeed in the 21st. century. It's something I would like to discuss with anybody who has a genuine interest in hearing it. Keeping in mind I'm a Canadian who values my democracy and understands that it needs to be carefully nurtured along.

Yes you did. You praised China point blank. They deserve none. It is an evil system based on forced labor, forced silence and controlled information.
As long as one tows the line, you will do quite well actually. Step one foot outside the mandated will of the central government and you will be imprisoned immediately. No modern country on earth holds a candle to the number of political prisoners than China. And they keep them in prison for years and years for even small, single matters.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Donald H]

Yes you did. You praised China point blank. They deserve none. It is an evil system based on forced labor, forced silence and controlled information.
As long as one tows the line, you will do quite well actually. Step one foot outside the mandated will of the central government and you will be imprisoned immediately. No modern country on earth holds a candle to the number of political prisoners than China. And they keep them in prison for years and years for even small, single matters.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, I do and did praise China's system of government for it's accomplishment of raising hundreds of millions of poor people up out of poverty.

And I do so by making the comparison to the US system of huge income inequality that is impoverishing millions of it's people beyond decent standards of living in other countries with less wealth. Thus, America's quality of life down to 15th. in the world.

As to China's treatment of it's people, that is largely covered in my comment above, but it requires further explanation.

Any attempts by subversives in China will need to be dealt with in a very positive manner so as to ensure that no other entity can perform harm and disruption to the system. That could call for prison sentences for offenders, followed by harsher measures for repeat offenders, and obviously summary execution for those who refuse to abide by the system's laws.

China's system cannot tolerate any disruptions from within or from without when there is it's possibility of negative influence on the wellbeing of a 1, 500,000,000 people!

That should cover all of your questions and objections.

However, those citizens who abide by the laws of the system, should be able to live a decent life provided by the state, if they don't cause trouble.

Democracy is not possible in China. They have far too many mouths to feed and so can't permit the whims of some few individuals to disrupt. Period!

I'm a Canadian and I'm totally convinced that my government and my system of democracy is the best for my country. We only have 35,000,000 mouths to feed and can easily afford to allow our people to chase after their ambitions when those ambitions are sometimes to the detriment of the common good.

Can America continue to do the same with 330,000,000 people? It's very definitely beginning to look like it can't. America's police brutality, including murder in broad daylight on the streets, reminds of China's brutal means.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Yes you did. You praised China point blank. They deserve none. It is an evil system based on forced labor, forced silence and controlled information.
As long as one tows the line, you will do quite well actually. Step one foot outside the mandated will of the central government and you will be imprisoned immediately. No modern country on earth holds a candle to the number of political prisoners than China. And they keep them in prison for years and years for even small, single matters.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, I do and did praise China's system of government for it's accomplishment of raising hundreds of millions of poor people up out of poverty.

And I do so by making the comparison to the US system of huge income inequality that is impoverishing millions of it's people beyond decent standards of living in other countries with less wealth. Thus, America's quality of life down to 15th. in the world.

As to China's treatment of it's people, that is largely covered in my comment above, but it requires further explanation.

Any attempts by subversives in China will need to be dealt with in a very positive manner so as to ensure that no other entity can perform harm and disruption to the system. That could call for prison sentences for offenders, followed by harsher measures for repeat offenders, and obviously summary execution for those who refuse to abide by the system's laws.

China's system cannot tolerate any disruptions from within or from without when there is it's possibility of negative influence on the wellbeing of a 1, 500,000,000 people!

That should cover all of your questions and objections.

However, those citizens who abide by the laws of the system, should be able to live a decent life provided by the state, if they don't cause trouble.

Democracy is not possible in China. They have far too many mouths to feed and so can't permit the whims of some few individuals to disrupt. Period!

I'm a Canadian and I'm totally convinced that my government and my system of democracy is the best for my country. We only have 35,000,000 mouths to feed and can easily afford to allow our people to chase after their ambitions when those ambitions are sometimes to the detriment of the common good.

Can America continue to do the same with 330,000,000 people? It's very definitely beginning to look like it can't. America's police brutality, including murder in broad daylight on the streets, reminds of China's brutal means.

Sorry guy, but your ignorance of China is rather stunning. I would guess you have only read/seen propaganda by/about them promoted by liberal education.
China is the greatest enemy to mankind at the moment. As far as a single nation goes.
North Korea is the most vile, but it's influence is exactly zero outside it's borders.
China's economy is based on internal and foreign investors in using forced labor. China has single handily decreased the cost of labor worldwide.
China is responsible for the closures of untold number of manufacturing plants in America and world wide. Indeed, there are whole industries that are almost entirely only manufactured in China. And is a direct threat to our National Security. But the corrupt powers could care less, as they themselves have made $millions investing in China.
In China... the line between the have's and the have nots is razor thin. Almost invisible.
The wealthy live in a kind of luxury not often seen here in America. And they are well above the law. Untouchable so to speak.
Everyone else lives in one room apartments, with many subletting that tiny apartment where several relatives live in a space not much larger than the average bedroom in America. Or... they live outside of the city in dirt.
Also China's rural landscape is filled with ghost towns. Abandoned villages everywhere. You can find pics of them on the net everywhere. They are where people use to live... but are now empty due to being forced at gun point to work in factories.

And through your ignorance - you praise them for it.

 

[gipper]

I wrote this in another thread, but decided it needs it's own.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe.

In a capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.

If you think the US has a free market capitalist economy, you need to wake up.

 

[Donald H]

Yes you did. You praised China point blank. They deserve none. It is an evil system based on forced labor, forced silence and controlled information.
As long as one tows the line, you will do quite well actually. Step one foot outside the mandated will of the central government and you will be imprisoned immediately. No modern country on earth holds a candle to the number of political prisoners than China. And they keep them in prison for years and years for even small, single matters.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, I do and did praise China's system of government for it's accomplishment of raising hundreds of millions of poor people up out of poverty.

And I do so by making the comparison to the US system of huge income inequality that is impoverishing millions of it's people beyond decent standards of living in other countries with less wealth. Thus, America's quality of life down to 15th. in the world.

As to China's treatment of it's people, that is largely covered in my comment above, but it requires further explanation.

Any attempts by subversives in China will need to be dealt with in a very positive manner so as to ensure that no other entity can perform harm and disruption to the system. That could call for prison sentences for offenders, followed by harsher measures for repeat offenders, and obviously summary execution for those who refuse to abide by the system's laws.

China's system cannot tolerate any disruptions from within or from without when there is it's possibility of negative influence on the wellbeing of a 1, 500,000,000 people!

That should cover all of your questions and objections.

However, those citizens who abide by the laws of the system, should be able to live a decent life provided by the state, if they don't cause trouble.

Democracy is not possible in China. They have far too many mouths to feed and so can't permit the whims of some few individuals to disrupt. Period!

I'm a Canadian and I'm totally convinced that my government and my system of democracy is the best for my country. We only have 35,000,000 mouths to feed and can easily afford to allow our people to chase after their ambitions when those ambitions are sometimes to the detriment of the common good.

Can America continue to do the same with 330,000,000 people? It's very definitely beginning to look like it can't. America's police brutality, including murder in broad daylight on the streets, reminds of China's brutal means.

Sorry guy, but your ignorance of China is rather stunning. I would guess you have only read/seen propaganda by/about them promoted by liberal education.
China is the greatest enemy to mankind at the moment. As far as a single nation goes.
North Korea is the most vile, but it's influence is exactly zero outside it's borders.
China's economy is based on internal and foreign investors in using forced labor. China has single handily decreased the cost of labor worldwide.
China is responsible for the closures of untold number of manufacturing plants in America and world wide. Indeed, there are whole industries that are almost entirely only manufactured in China. And is a direct threat to our National Security. But the corrupt powers could care less, as they themselves have made $millions investing in China.
In China... the line between the have's and the have nots is razor thin. Almost invisible.
The wealthy live in a kind of luxury not often seen here in America. And they are well above the law. Untouchable so to speak.
Everyone else lives in one room apartments, with many subletting that tiny apartment where several relatives live in a space not much larger than the average bedroom in America. Or... they live outside of the city in dirt.
Also China's rural landscape is filled with ghost towns. Abandoned villages everywhere. You can find pics of them on the net everywhere. They are where people use to live... but are now empty due to being forced at gun point to work in factories.

And through your ignorance - you praise them for it.

Because they have raised hundreds of millions of their people up out of poverty.
And did you know that America is rated as 15th. in the world for quality of life?

But of more importance is that China is rated at 19th! Not all that bad considering how recently they were one of the poorest countries in the world.

You just can't make that stuff up!

China is responsible for the closures of untold number of manufacturing plants in America and world wide.

That's the most important point you made. It's the answer in a nutshell for all the China hating.

I have to suggest that China is now too powerful to be stopped by the US, both economically and militarily. They have the nuclear deterrent!

 

[Donald H]

If you think the US has a free market capitalist economy, you need to wake up.

The biggest difference between poverty in Cuba and poverty in America is affordable quality health care for all the poor people.

That shines a different light on poverty!
If Cubans have clothes on their backs, education at world class standards, and a chicken in every pot, they can hardly be considered to be poor.

 

[ClaireH]

And by the way... America has been slowly but surely departing from a free enterprise system into a "newly" formed system called corporatism.
Corporatism is not capitalism. It is a system spun from it.
Corporations are nothing new. And for many years there was great benefit from it. But too much of anything is not a good thing.

Indeed. Too much of a good thing or the mega corporations that have been allowed to form and act like monopolies and this needs to change via legal measures. I applaud anyone who works hard and become successful and I do not agree that the higher income bracket should be penalized in someway by paying more in taxes percentage wise. What’s obvious though is the mega corporations negative impact on the concept of a free market. Amazon, Google/Alphabet are examples of corporations acting like monopolies- and it could be argued that Facebook as well has greatly benefited from corporatism. Generally speaking, I’m not big on regulation but this is absolutely a time for it in the private sector- although that doesn’t mean that additional government “oversight layer” should be added to the mix- that would be no help at all. I really don’t have the solution, but I know that there is one if the people demand it

 

[gipper]

If you think the US has a free market capitalist economy, you need to wake up.

The biggest difference between poverty in Cuba and poverty in America is affordable quality health care for all the poor people.

That shines a different light on poverty!
If Cubans have clothes on their backs, education at world class standards, and a chicken in every pot, they can hardly be considered to be poor.

I agree with that.

It’s most ironic that the world’s richest nation can’t provide HC for it’s citizens but much of the rest of the world can, including poor nations like Cuba.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Yes you did. You praised China point blank. They deserve none. It is an evil system based on forced labor, forced silence and controlled information.
As long as one tows the line, you will do quite well actually. Step one foot outside the mandated will of the central government and you will be imprisoned immediately. No modern country on earth holds a candle to the number of political prisoners than China. And they keep them in prison for years and years for even small, single matters.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, I do and did praise China's system of government for it's accomplishment of raising hundreds of millions of poor people up out of poverty.

And I do so by making the comparison to the US system of huge income inequality that is impoverishing millions of it's people beyond decent standards of living in other countries with less wealth. Thus, America's quality of life down to 15th. in the world.

As to China's treatment of it's people, that is largely covered in my comment above, but it requires further explanation.

Any attempts by subversives in China will need to be dealt with in a very positive manner so as to ensure that no other entity can perform harm and disruption to the system. That could call for prison sentences for offenders, followed by harsher measures for repeat offenders, and obviously summary execution for those who refuse to abide by the system's laws.

China's system cannot tolerate any disruptions from within or from without when there is it's possibility of negative influence on the wellbeing of a 1, 500,000,000 people!

That should cover all of your questions and objections.

However, those citizens who abide by the laws of the system, should be able to live a decent life provided by the state, if they don't cause trouble.

Democracy is not possible in China. They have far too many mouths to feed and so can't permit the whims of some few individuals to disrupt. Period!

I'm a Canadian and I'm totally convinced that my government and my system of democracy is the best for my country. We only have 35,000,000 mouths to feed and can easily afford to allow our people to chase after their ambitions when those ambitions are sometimes to the detriment of the common good.

Can America continue to do the same with 330,000,000 people? It's very definitely beginning to look like it can't. America's police brutality, including murder in broad daylight on the streets, reminds of China's brutal means.

I think it is correct and absolutely necessary to speak about different conditions like population, poverty and history when analyzing what varieties of “socialism” or “capitalism,” democracy or dictatorship, may be appropriate, or likely to lead to success or failure.

Historical necessity conditions political possibilities and even moral alternatives for those who would rule well. Men like XiJinping have to have weighed these questions deeply. It is right to emphasize this. In my opinion people like iamwhatiseem impose arbitrary or grossly ahistoric and unrealistic American presumptions unto China. Hence he talks about “slave labor” and “forced labor” as if they were the norm in China — when people in China just work harder for less there, because they have to if they want to feed themselves and buy apartments and cars and educate their kids. He doesn’t understand that the labor markets and commodity markets there are “free,” but just within very different historically evolved parameters. He doesn’t even mention domestic migrant labor, the hukou system, etc. — things that really are predominant factors.

Still, I think you appear unaware how difficult it is to keep a central ruling “socialist” bureaucracy from corruption and ultimate degeneration in a large modern state. China is a special case, perhaps, as its Confucian & imperial culture run deep. But as we’ve seen in the past, it is all too easy to worship — from the outside — even the most horrible reality of power in a “communist” run system like the USSR under Stalin. China’s own likely future evolution remains unclear.

I think lots of care needs to be taken when praising all these countries, just as critics need to learn to put their criticisms into perspective. The same can be said about those who would praise or criticize Western societies. Just saying...

 

[Donald H]

I agree with that.

It’s most ironic that the world’s richest nation can’t provide HC for it’s citizens but much of the rest of the world can, including poor nations like Cuba.

To be honest, I think that there's been a sort of Trump revolution that has brought that truth to a great many of the American people. But that's not to suggest that Trump would have ever done the job. Just that he promised to do it.

And yes, it's quite amazing what Cuba, a resource poor banana republic has been able to do for it's people.

 

[ClaireH]

China is a deplorable system based on forced/slave labor.

Modern China is NOT based on forced/slave labor. You need to learn more about China yourself.

I do not defend Donald H ’s rose-colored view of China (or Cuba or Venezuela) but workers in China are free to change jobs and do so frequently. The extremely rapid increase in China salaries overall in the last decades, despite the lack of independent trade unions, is noted by all serious studies. The economy and construction of a whole new infrastructure for the nation has grown so quickly that there are jobs — not all decent paying of course, but far better than in the past.

Corruption, bureaucracy, lack of democracy in this authoritarian one-party system, these have negative consequences for sure. But the system is not based on slave labor, commune labor or prison labor. The latter does exist, but it exists in the U.S. as well, and the U.S. has a far larger prison population per capita.

I am not talking about systems here — so called capitalism vs. communism or socialism — but about actual empirical reality. The greatest and most rapid decline in deep poverty in the world has occurred in our lifetimes in China — and not through “slave labor.” This much we all ought to acknowledge.

I don't think so.
Again, all one has to do is look at China's massive wine industry. The field workers were taken from their villages and forced to work in the vinyards. It is quite hard to get information on this because pretty obvious Google protects China. Obviously Foxconn uses forced labor, Nike has a loong history of it.
You can go on. All of these industries became successful due to forced labor at pitiful - pitiful wages.

China: 83 major brands implicated in report on forced labour of ethnic minorities from Xinjiang assigned to factories across provinces; Includes company responses - Business & Human Rights Resource Centre

www.business-humanrights.org

Impoverished farmers have also been forced to buy washers and dryers to participate in CCP’s economy resulting in not having enough money to buy seed to plant for food to feed themselves. What a nice way to boost a country’s economy growth stats- starve out the lowest rungs to ensure a better economic forecast. Horrendous.

 

[ClaireH]

Yes you did. You praised China point blank. They deserve none. It is an evil system based on forced labor, forced silence and controlled information.
As long as one tows the line, you will do quite well actually. Step one foot outside the mandated will of the central government and you will be imprisoned immediately. No modern country on earth holds a candle to the number of political prisoners than China. And they keep them in prison for years and years for even small, single matters.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, I do and did praise China's system of government for it's accomplishment of raising hundreds of millions of poor people up out of poverty.

And I do so by making the comparison to the US system of huge income inequality that is impoverishing millions of it's people beyond decent standards of living in other countries with less wealth. Thus, America's quality of life down to 15th. in the world.

As to China's treatment of it's people, that is largely covered in my comment above, but it requires further explanation.

Any attempts by subversives in China will need to be dealt with in a very positive manner so as to ensure that no other entity can perform harm and disruption to the system. That could call for prison sentences for offenders, followed by harsher measures for repeat offenders, and obviously summary execution for those who refuse to abide by the system's laws.

China's system cannot tolerate any disruptions from within or from without when there is it's possibility of negative influence on the wellbeing of a 1, 500,000,000 people!

That should cover all of your questions and objections.

However, those citizens who abide by the laws of the system, should be able to live a decent life provided by the state, if they don't cause trouble.

Democracy is not possible in China. They have far too many mouths to feed and so can't permit the whims of some few individuals to disrupt. Period!

I'm a Canadian and I'm totally convinced that my government and my system of democracy is the best for my country. We only have 35,000,000 mouths to feed and can easily afford to allow our people to chase after their ambitions when those ambitions are sometimes to the detriment of the common good.

Can America continue to do the same with 330,000,000 people? It's very definitely beginning to look like it can't. America's police brutality, including murder in broad daylight on the streets, reminds of China's brutal means.

Define “rising up” with respect to CCP helping their impoverished- just a hunch but I’m pretty sure we have different definitions.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

In China... the line between the have's and the have nots is razor thin. Almost invisible.

You have no idea what you are talking about here. Your entire comment this was taken from is filled with false conceptions about modern China and Chinese life in general.

 

[gipper]

I agree with that.

It’s most ironic that the world’s richest nation can’t provide HC for it’s citizens but much of the rest of the world can, including poor nations like Cuba.

To be honest, I think that there's been a sort of Trump revolution that has brought that truth to a great many of the American people. But that's not to suggest that Trump would have ever done the job. Just that he promised to do it.

And yes, it's quite amazing what Cuba, a resource poor banana republic has been able to do for it's people.

Cubans not only get free HC, but I’m betting their HC is better than ours. The profit motive in HC really fucks up care in the US. Remember? The third leading cause of death in the US is death by doctor.

 

[Donald H]

I think it is correct and absolutely necessary to speak about different conditions like population, poverty and history when analyzing what varieties of “socialism” or “capitalism,” democracy or dictatorship, may be appropriate, or likely to lead to success or failure.

Historical necessity conditions political possibilities and even moral alternatives for those who would rule well. Men like XiJinping have to have weighed these questions deeply. It is right to emphasize this. In my opinion people like iamwhatiseem impose arbitrary or grossly ahistoric and unrealistic American presumptions unto China. Hence he talks about “slave labor” and “forced labor” as if they were the norm in China — when people in China just work harder for less there, because they have to if they want to feed themselves and buy apartments and cars and educate their kids. He doesn’t understand that the labor markets and commodity markets there are “free,” but just within very different historically evolved parameters. He doesn’t even mention domestic migrant labor, the hukou system, etc. — things that really are predominant factors.

Still, I think you appear unaware how difficult it is to keep a central ruling “socialist” bureaucracy from corruption and ultimate degeneration in a large modern state. China is a special case, perhaps, as its Confucian & imperial culture run deep. But as we’ve seen in the past, it is all too easy to worship — from the outside — even the most horrible reality of power in a “communist” run system like the USSR under Stalin. China’s own likely future evolution remains unclear.

I think lots of care needs to be taken when praising all these countries, just as critics need to learn to put their criticisms into perspective. The same can be said about those who would praise or criticize Western societies. Just saying...

I always intend to do justice to your clear thinking Tom, but I grow weary and my time must be limited because of other commitments. The quick and easy answer to criticism of China is to repeat that the US is 15th. on quality of life and China has risen to 19th.

If I had only looked into the question and studied China that much, I would submit that is sufficient to answer the criticisms.
later!

 

[Donald H]

Cubans not only get free HC, but I’m betting their HC is better than ours. The profit motive in HC really fucks up care in the US. Remember? The third leading cause of death in the US is death by doctor.
[/QUOTE]

Everything considered on quality of HC, Cuba's is one place worse than America's.

Getting the health care to all of the people is such a huge consideration. It's something worth learning about on how HC is rated in the world.

 

[AMart]

I agree with that.

It’s most ironic that the world’s richest nation can’t provide HC for it’s citizens but much of the rest of the world can, including poor nations like Cuba.

To be honest, I think that there's been a sort of Trump revolution that has brought that truth to a great many of the American people. But that's not to suggest that Trump would have ever done the job. Just that he promised to do it.

And yes, it's quite amazing what Cuba, a resource poor banana republic has been able to do for it's people.

Cubans not only get free HC, but I’m betting their HC is better than ours. The profit motive in HC really fucks up care in the US. Remember? The third leading cause of death in the US is death by doctor.

LOL Cuba is a disaster. They have medical tourism for wealthy foreigners in nice clinics and their doctors don't get paid dust. Regular Cuban's access to "healthcare" is run down clinics and hospitals that have very limited staffing, medicine, supplies. The Cuban government sends most of their Doctors abroad and they confiscate most of their salary.

 

[gipper]

I agree with that.

It’s most ironic that the world’s richest nation can’t provide HC for it’s citizens but much of the rest of the world can, including poor nations like Cuba.

To be honest, I think that there's been a sort of Trump revolution that has brought that truth to a great many of the American people. But that's not to suggest that Trump would have ever done the job. Just that he promised to do it.

And yes, it's quite amazing what Cuba, a resource poor banana republic has been able to do for it's people.

Cubans not only get free HC, but I’m betting their HC is better than ours. The profit motive in HC really fucks up care in the US. Remember? The third leading cause of death in the US is death by doctor.

LOL Cuba is a disaster. They have medical tourism for wealthy foreigners in nice clinics and their doctors don't get paid dust. Regular Cuban's access to "healthcare" is run down clinics and hospitals that have very limited staffing, medicine, supplies. The Cuban government sends most of their Doctors abroad and they confiscate most of their salary.

I’m not sure that’s true, but our HC is most certainly a disaster.