CDZ Poverty, what it is between a capitalist society and socialist/communistic society.

[iamwhatiseem]

I wrote this in another thread, but decided it needs it's own.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe.

In a capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.

 

[Agit8r]

Let's be real, upward mobility has been virtually shut down by the usurous student loan industry.

It has been designed to do just that too. The employers today don't want ambition. They want complete subservience.

Remember, that communism is only ever seriously disgussed where people have been living in deadly slave-like conditions.

As with the rubber plantations of Vietnam.

As with the hacienda system in Latin America.

As with people being wantonly exposed to plague by evil managers who make wagers on who dies first.

 

[Donald H]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

 

[badger2]

Socialism becomes impossible at the point between necessary labor and surplus labor, leaving only two entities due to an excluded-middle argument, which we think is the best argument.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Let's be real, upward mobility has been virtually shut down by the usurous student loan industry.

It has been designed to do just that too. The employers today don't want ambition. They want complete subservience.

Remember, that communism is only ever seriously disgussed where people have been living in deadly slave-like conditions.

As with the rubber plantations of Vietnam.

As with the hacienda system in Latin America.

As with people being wantonly exposed to plague by evil managers who make wagers on who dies first.

1) The student loan industry, and I can appreciate you also see it that way, because that is what it is, is a system developed by mostly Democrats that predictably resulted in disastrous consequences for students/parents and a HUGE win for pockets of the college system in America. Liberalism at it's core is a policy system based on idealism. This system was developed based on an IDEA that "everyone should go to college". The end result was skyrocketing tuition and student housing. Nearly overnight, colleges dramatically increased their housing units to take advantage of the government paying for not only tuition - but housing also. And the profits off of these quad units is astronomical.
2) "Employers don't want ambition" - God that is just stupid. I don't know how else to put it. I would guess you are referring to what they want from the lowest rung of employment... such as a burger flipper. You would be right, they don't need ambition from burger flippers. They just need them to flip the burgers when the beeping tells them to. But in ALL other types of jobs of course they want ambition, but not without a serious work ethic to go along with it.
3) Everything else you say... not sure where you are going with it, or the point.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

Answer this question.... did you know that America paid for about 75% of Frances TOTAL healthcare cost in 2019 *?
Or did you know that America paid ALL of Britain's? Every dime, and then some.
I am going to say you don't. Obviously.
Unfortunately our government has turned our country into the "Dining Room Buffet" of the world. Where other countries line up for the cash machine and devour OUR tax payer dollars.
So you cannot simply start saying "look at these "MORE RESPONSIBLE NATIONS" and what they do - without the knowledge that America finances most of it.


* (in 2019 France spent $3.2 billion in healthcare, America gave France $2.3 billion) Brookings Institute.

 

[Donald H]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

Answer this question.... did you know that America paid for about 75% of Frances TOTAL healthcare cost in 2019 *?
Or did you know that America paid ALL of Britain's? Every dime, and then some.
I am going to say you don't. Obviously.
Unfortunately our government has turned our country into the "Dining Room Buffet" of the world. Where other countries line up for the cash machine and devour OUR tax payer dollars.
So you cannot simply start saying "look at these "MORE RESPONSIBLE NATIONS" and what they do - without the knowledge that America finances most of it.


* (in 2019 France spent $3.2 billion in healthcare, America gave France $2.3 billion) Brookings Institute.

What's that all about? Is it the latest excuse for your inadequate health care system which leaves 100 million of your people either without insurance of with inadequate insureance that doesn't even cover removing your tonsils?

I'm sure France's and Britain's people would be grateful if there was any truth in it but wouldn't your own people appreciate the money more?

Did you know that nearly 2 1/2 times more Americans travel out of country for health care than do Canadians, per capita adjusted.

Mr. Brookings needs to take a look at his fellow Americans' lot in life!

 

[iamwhatiseem]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

Answer this question.... did you know that America paid for about 75% of Frances TOTAL healthcare cost in 2019 *?
Or did you know that America paid ALL of Britain's? Every dime, and then some.
I am going to say you don't. Obviously.
Unfortunately our government has turned our country into the "Dining Room Buffet" of the world. Where other countries line up for the cash machine and devour OUR tax payer dollars.
So you cannot simply start saying "look at these "MORE RESPONSIBLE NATIONS" and what they do - without the knowledge that America finances most of it.


* (in 2019 France spent $3.2 billion in healthcare, America gave France $2.3 billion) Brookings Institute.

What's that all about? Is it the latest excuse for your inadequate health care system which leaves 100 million of your people either without insurance of with inadequate insureance that doesn't even cover removing your tonsils?

I'm sure France's and Britain's people would be grateful if there was any truth in it but wouldn't your own people appreciate the money more?

Did you know that nearly 2 1/2 times more Americans travel out of country for health care than do Canadians, per capita adjusted.

Mr. Brookings needs to take a look at his fellow Americans' lot in life!

Deflect much?
"latest excuse".... not at all. It has been said 1000's of times. Nay, 100,000's of times.
And this thread isn't about healthcare. It is about what poverty ACTUALLY is in socialism/communism, and what it is in a market system.
But I understand very well why you want to talk about something other than that

 

[iamwhatiseem]

From 41 years ago.... and no less true as if it was spoken yesterday...

 

[Donald H]

Deflect much?
"latest excuse".... not at all. It has been said 1000's of times. Nay, 100,000's of times.
And this thread isn't about healthcare. It is about what poverty ACTUALLY is in socialism/communism, and what it is in a market system.
But I understand very well why you want to talk about something other than that

If somebody tries to deflect the topic to health care and then starts making pathetic excuses for why America's system has failed, I'll follow the lead if it's considered as inclusive to the topic.

 

[Donald H]

From 41 years ago.... and no less true as if it was spoken yesterday...

That's the one where Milty speaks about greed being a good thing, right?

Always true in America!

 

[iamwhatiseem]

From 41 years ago.... and no less true as if it was spoken yesterday...

That's the one where Milty speaks about greed being a good thing, right?

Always true in America!

Typical way a liberal would see it.
At no point in the entire 59 min discussion does Milton say greed is a good thing, rather, there is no societal system in existence that is not based on it. And equally, the very places you find the grinding poverty that everyone talks about - exist exponentially more in systems that depart from a free market system.
In other words, you can measure the poverty of a nation, accurately, by how far it's economic system departs from free enterprise.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

And by the way... America has been slowly but surely departing from a free enterprise system into a "newly" formed system called corporatism.
Corporatism is not capitalism. It is a system spun from it.
Corporations are nothing new. And for many years there was great benefit from it. But too much of anything is not a good thing.

 

[Wyatt earp]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

Answer this question.... did you know that America paid for about 75% of Frances TOTAL healthcare cost in 2019 *?
Or did you know that America paid ALL of Britain's? Every dime, and then some.
I am going to say you don't. Obviously.
Unfortunately our government has turned our country into the "Dining Room Buffet" of the world. Where other countries line up for the cash machine and devour OUR tax payer dollars.
So you cannot simply start saying "look at these "MORE RESPONSIBLE NATIONS" and what they do - without the knowledge that America finances most of it.


* (in 2019 France spent $3.2 billion in healthcare, America gave France $2.3 billion) Brookings Institute.

So france spent only 4 billion on healthcare roughly for 66 million people?

 

[AZrailwhale]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

How about showing us even one country where that has happened. It sure isn't true of the PRC who you seem to admire. There crony-capitalism is the only way to get rich.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

In the interest of starting a discussion I've inserted another option between the two extremes.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe. *

Socially Responsible Capitalism, in which the citizens of a country are treated fairly, regardless of their wealth, and receive the benefits their government is capable of providing for them. This is the norm in the world's leading demcracies which are rated as the top ten on quality of life. It differs from capitalism in America that allows two richest billionaires to hold the equivalent wealth of the bottom half of the country's population.

In America's capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
3) In which poverty isn't escapable for those made poor by the greed.

Note: I've made some necessary adjustments to some of the categories, in the interest of truthfulness and honest debate.

*It must also be noted that communism evolves without outside interference by rogue military countries into extremely prosperous capitalism under communist control that ensures no citizen becomes so wealthy as to be stealing the wealth of the entire country's resources.

Answer this question.... did you know that America paid for about 75% of Frances TOTAL healthcare cost in 2019 *?
Or did you know that America paid ALL of Britain's? Every dime, and then some.
I am going to say you don't. Obviously.
Unfortunately our government has turned our country into the "Dining Room Buffet" of the world. Where other countries line up for the cash machine and devour OUR tax payer dollars.
So you cannot simply start saying "look at these "MORE RESPONSIBLE NATIONS" and what they do - without the knowledge that America finances most of it.


* (in 2019 France spent $3.2 billion in healthcare, America gave France $2.3 billion) Brookings Institute.

So france spent only 4 billion on healthcare roughly for 66 million people?

There is a misnomer in pretty much every liberal person that talks about other countries "free healthcare"... it isn't free.
In these countries people still pay a portion of their care. So the total cost of healthcare is higher I am sure, but that is the cost to France government. WHich I believe... pays about 75% of the cost... I could be wrong

 

[Donald H]

There is a misnomer in pretty much every liberal person that talks about other countries "free healthcare"... it isn't free.

Of course it isn't free!
But is there any progress to be made with you when you bring up such a senseless point?

In these countries people still pay a portion of their care. So the total cost of healthcare is higher I am sure, but that is the cost to France government. WHich I believe... pays about 75% of the cost... I could be wrong

When you start talking about how the world's leading democracies provide health care for all of their people at an affordable cost, I'll be here to aid you along to understanding the issue.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

When I made this thread I knew not one single liberal who comes here is going to want to talk about the 2nd condition of poverty in a capitalist economy - A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.
How often, if ever, have you heard the words "personal responsibility" spoken by a liberal in ANY discussion about poverty?
Never.
They want no part of that, even though it is the largest driver into why the vast-vast majority of people who are poor in America - are poor.
You see a homeless person. Being poor is not even close to the biggest problem they have. Not even close. But it is the only one liberals want to see and talk about.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

There is a misnomer in pretty much every liberal person that talks about other countries "free healthcare"... it isn't free.

Of course it isn't free!
But is there any progress to be made with you when you bring up such a senseless point?

In these countries people still pay a portion of their care. So the total cost of healthcare is higher I am sure, but that is the cost to France government. WHich I believe... pays about 75% of the cost... I could be wrong

When you start talking about how the world's leading democracies provide health care for all of their people at an affordable cost, I'll be here to aid you along to understanding the issue.

Then create a thread to talk about it.

 

[AMart]

I wrote this in another thread, but decided it needs it's own.

Poverty:

In Socialism/Communism, poverty is a state of existence at birth. You are either born in poverty, where you will stay. Or you are born among the elite, where you will stay. Examples of this fact, exist throughout history, all over the globe.

In a capitalist society, poverty is really two different states:
1) A temporary, escape-able condition (such as a business closure) or
2) A result of non participation in opportunities afforded to you.

Socialism is when government takes over companies and entire industries like in Cuba or Venezuela. With communism toss in no ownership of private property. Now communist government takeovers in places like China, or Vietnam they eventually discovered that relative to economies their ideas were as bad as possible, thus they switched to capitalism.