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Send the checks. If we need another round then send round 2.
And when the country goes bankrupt, and then there's no checks, or food, or anything.... will it be worth it?
Hard question...
Were at War with this virus. Don't aid the enemy.
I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.
To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.
Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened
Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancingwww.theguardian.com
Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.
All of the lock down measures that I've seen, have not been effective, as near as I can tell.
The clear example of this, would be Italy, which is again as near as I can tell, has the most strict and harsh lock down measure of any country.
Yet virus infections are still rising.
So.... given there doesn't seem to be much value in lock down, then we are left with a pointless policy that damages the entire economy. Corona, no matter which way you look at it, will be short term. Damage to the economy will be long term.
Now I do understand the logic, of trying to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Again... not seeing that this is working.
I tried to explain this to these guys before it all has to do with the natural logarithm of increase. Most socially transmitted diseases fall well within the realm of controllability by virtue of their contagion factor. But this thing is right off the charts. It really makes a person suspicious that it shows up with a two-week incubation period. Now consider the fact that the natural logarithm also has an inverse proportionality. Since 3 is a limit that it never reaches the fact that this thing has a contagion factor of more than that indicates that it's probably not controllable at all. Based on our ability to increase our treatment of it we find ourselves falling below the natural logarithm of increase. And we will never surpass that because nothing in nature ever has. Along comes covid-19 where the infected person most likely contacts hundreds of people before he knows he's even sick.
The mathematical indicators create an impossible scenario. even those places that are now boasting control and containment or complete elimination will eventually be ravaged. It's inescapable.
Jo
You can't be ravaged if your on lockdown. China has effectively controlled it. If there is a second wave after they reopen, they can lockdown again. As time goes by, we get closer to a vaccine. With a vaccine, everything changes.
Japan only has 1,500 cases. Its under control there. It could have been that way too for the United States, but Trump and the rest of the leadership failed to act in January and February.
I agree with one point....Vaccine yes.
Other than that I predict global exposure
Is inevitable.... It's not going away.
Jo
Exactly. That's the point. The problem with this logic, is that we are still operating under the impression that we can eliminate this.
Well... the Chinese haven't been able to eliminate the other Corona strains, and they were LESS contagious than this strain.
Again.... could be wrong. Could be wrong! I'll be the first to admit it!
But given that they can't eliminate the previous less dangerous strain, and this strain hasn't been contained...... anywhere.....
So if you can contain this thing, I see precious little evidence to support it.
equating a war economy to a pandemic economics is like insistingSend the checks. If we need another round then send round 2.
And when the country goes bankrupt, and then there's no checks, or food, or anything.... will it be worth it?
Hard question...
The United States did not go bankrupt in World War II when all the non-essential business's closed down and everything was geared toward the war effort including sending 1/3 of labor force overseas to fight and blow stuff up. Its true that a year after the war ended, the national debt reached its highest level as a percentage of GDP at 121%, but that was the price that had to be paid for victory. The United States has done pretty good over the last 75 years.
I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.
To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.
Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened
Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing
Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.
What has been pointed out many times, that you refuse to acknowledge, is that the flu kills more people every year than this virus ever will.
How can you make that statement with any degree of certainty?
I could say the same about “you on the right”. (Maybe we will quarantine all of New York, right?)No. Why does everything need to be one extreme or the other?As to the number killed, this is no where near as deadly as the annual flu and we never shut the country down for the flu.
There’s a lot of logical problems with this statement.
For starters, the first case of COVID showed up here about two months ago and is still growing at a rapid rate. You can not compare annual influenza deaths to the cumulative number of COVID deaths. Remember, we lost 500 people yesterday. And that number of deaths per day is only increasing so far.
Second, we have put into place unprecedented restrictions, which we all hope will be effective. I fear that if they are effective at limiting the spread of the virus, people will assume the restrictions were not necessary in the first place because COVID wasn’t “all that bad” and ignore the reason for that.
run for the hills, everybody panic, hoard toilet paper, hide from your neighbors, run, run, run its gonna kill us all=====================yaaaaa
happy now?
its you on the left that are screaming for the extremes. I am pleading for common sense.
You are mischaracterizing me by assuming that I am saying something I’m not.
a quarantine of NYC may be appropriate for a while. I am just waiting for an outbreak in the homeless in LA and SFO where there is no sanitation and human waste is running in the gutters. Then what? Whose fault would that be?
It would be an extreme measure. Common sense argues against it.
Are you under the impression that COVID is enteric? Homeless populations are indeed high risk. That’s true anywhere. I’ve seen some people putting them up in currently empty hotels as a temporary measure.
I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.
To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.
Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened
Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing
Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.
We can not let this thing beat us...The economy needs to get going again with the understanding that people must pay attention to their surroundings, and practice good hygine...
The only way to beat this thing, they way it has been proven to be defeated, is through extreme lockdown and testing. Lockdown and Testing are the two pillars. Until the PATHOGEN is defeated, non-essential business is irrelevant. This is a national crises and sacrifices must be made to defeat the enemy.
Hmmm, how about if we treat it like we treated chicken pox and measles? continue our lives and people get it, recover, and then have a life time immunity?
What is gained by stopping the virus and destroying the country?
That idea would kill 1 million Americans by the end of April. That would be a disaster which is why every government on the planet is not doing that.
The country is not going to be destroyed by shutting down non-essential services. The United States shut down thousands of business's during World War II that were not essential to the war effort.
Right now, millions of American lives are at stake because this virus and the deaths from it are growing exponentially. It is not like some other disease. It is a deadly pathogen that is easily transmissible.
Were talking about people's lives here.
you are wrong, the mortality rate of corona has been shown to be very close to the annual flu. THIS IS NOT A DISASTER THAT IS GOING TO DESTROY THE WORLD.
When ignorant people like you and some of the Trump-hating media pukes spew this garbage, you are creating a panic situation that is totally unnecessary.
This thing will play itself out very soon. continuing to shut down the country will kill a lot more people than the virus ever could.
I am still waiting for one of you prophets of doom to tell us how many of the old sick people who have died with the virus would have died anyway from their underlying conditions. Until you can do that, all the stats are meaningless.
The average seasonal flu death rate is .1%
The average coronavirus death rate in the United States is 1.77%
The average coronavirus death rate in Italy is 11.03%
So the coronavirus death is anywhere from 17 times to 110 times as deadly as season flu.
More importantly ask yourself this: If this is nothing more serious then seasonal flu, why are cities building new make shift hospitals and make shift morgues? Why are hospitals at capacity with their ICU Beds? Why are there not enough Ventilators?
If you take time to think about and answer those questions, you will realize that stating this is nothing more serious than seasonal flu is total rubbish.
"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."
It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.
We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.
NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.
In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!
You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.
There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!
Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.
I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.
We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.
Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....
We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.
There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.
There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.
Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.
No, we cannot just lock down non-essential services indefinitely.
Millions of people will not survive financially indefinitely with a few grand from the government. There is no bailout large enough to stave off what will happen under some indefinite shutdown. Unemployment will continue to skyrocket, business will fold, bankruptcies will mount, foreclosures will follow. These things are going to happen already and the longer this goes on the larger those numbers will get as more and more people are pushed underwater.
Locking everything down does not shorten the timeframe here. I'm not sure where you got that idea but it is wrong. If anything it extends the timeframe. Flattening the curve does not necessarily mean less cases- it spreads them over time, which results in a longer timeframe. All we need to do is look at the x-axis on any one of the graphs already put out, which plot time vs cases to see that. We can hope as spring arrives some of this will lessen, and maybe it will, but that's uncertain.
If the data indicates it we need to reshape our thinking as that data evolves. That data seems to have been updated by the same experts most people have been telling us we should be looking to for answers, and we are looking at new information just over the last few days. This new data seemingly contradicts a lot of what we have been told to this point which has shaped our thinking and our strategies. We need to incorporate updated information into our decision-making process here and not just sit in the most conservative position possible across the entire country.
There has to be an end game here and we need to start figuring out what that looks like and continue moving forward. Just locking down nationally indefinitely is not a plan, nor is waiting until we have a vaccine, as that's a year+ out.
This is a national emergency. Non-essential business's, their closure, the unemployment levels are irrelevant to defeating the Pathogen and saving lives. Most experts believe that the lockdown is the best way to save lives, protect the healthcare system, as well as protect the economy. The non-essential business's can reopen when this WAR is over. There may be multiple shut down cycles we go through before a vaccine is available and used.
Thousands of non-essential business's shut down during World War II and over 16 million men were taken out of the economy and sent over seas to fight in foreign countries. This is what happens in a national emergency and the country can maintain this for years if necessary, because it has in the past.
The most in debt this country ever was, was the year after World War II ended.
Also, it is NOT for sure, that there will be another outbreak after this lockdown is lifted or that if there is one that it will be as bad. More importantly, it would have saved lives, bought the medical and scientific community time, and we would be closer to a vaccine.
The fact is, the lockdown plan is what 99% of the nations on earth have adopted and plan to pursue until the pathogen is defeated.
The idiots that want to reopen non-essential services are in the minority. Even if your non-essential business reopens, no one is going to go there or use it in the middle of the pandemic.
Continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again doesnt make it more true.
Nor is this an either-or choice on a global level for the entire country. Some areas are, and will, be more effected. Some portions of the population are more at risk than others.
And yes, it is all but certain that the disease will not be simply 'defeated' and will continue to circulate during any lockdown only to re-emerge once it is lifted. Without a vaccine or some amount of herd immunity to begin to shift numbers from those susceptible to those not susceptible, that is nothing but simple math.
All of the histrionics in the world won't save people's homes and futures from some misapplied global lockdown. The country must, and will, open up in areas where it can while remaining vigilant to keep the infection numbers within the ability of the system to handle them. That is all these measures have ever been intended to do, as most people realize that economic considerations have to be part of our calculus, whether we like it or not.
And, again, as you seem to be ignoring this fact completely, the data we had 2 weeks ago is apparently not what experts are saying now. We don't plot a course based on old data, nor should we.
We're not doing this for years. That you think that throwing millions of families out of their homes with no way to earn money to even feed themselves and destabilizing our economy for decades is a better option than phasing economic activity back in where possible honestly baffles the heck out of me.
Sorry, but were not going to kill people and let this pathogen ravage the country in order to open up non-essential business's. Even if you did open these places up, they are not going to get any business or nothing like they would in normal times. That's reality. The only way to save lives and the economy is to DEFEAT THE PATHOGEN. Until that happens, there will be no returning to business as usual, even if an IDIOT decides to try it. The States are far more for the lockdowns than the idiot Trump.
The lockdown stays until the virus is contained or a vaccine is developed. That's the way it is NOW, and that is the way it will continue to be until containment or a vaccine occurs.
Well, I guess we'll see about that. Given that most experts seem to share the opinion that this will be more piecemeal than not, you may be in for a surprise.
And again, there are more options than A or B. Its hard to discuss that if you're going to stay laser focused on that as if these are the only options when in reality there are a range. And there are a range for areas and communities, and so on.
We cannot simply wait this out, nor shoukd we, as, as people are exposed and have some immunity they should go back to work
We are not going to wait for a vaccine, nor should we if the new numbers we are looking at are accurate, as thats 1-2 years out and that strategy likely destroys more lives than it saves. You may think that, but, again, I think youre in for a bit of a surprise there.
I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.
To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.
Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened
Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing
Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.
We can not let this thing beat us...The economy needs to get going again with the understanding that people must pay attention to their surroundings, and practice good hygine...
The only way to beat this thing, they way it has been proven to be defeated, is through extreme lockdown and testing. Lockdown and Testing are the two pillars. Until the PATHOGEN is defeated, non-essential business is irrelevant. This is a national crises and sacrifices must be made to defeat the enemy.
Hmmm, how about if we treat it like we treated chicken pox and measles? continue our lives and people get it, recover, and then have a life time immunity?
What is gained by stopping the virus and destroying the country?
That idea would kill 1 million Americans by the end of April. That would be a disaster which is why every government on the planet is not doing that.
The country is not going to be destroyed by shutting down non-essential services. The United States shut down thousands of business's during World War II that were not essential to the war effort.
Right now, millions of American lives are at stake because this virus and the deaths from it are growing exponentially. It is not like some other disease. It is a deadly pathogen that is easily transmissible.
Were talking about people's lives here.
you are wrong, the mortality rate of corona has been shown to be very close to the annual flu. THIS IS NOT A DISASTER THAT IS GOING TO DESTROY THE WORLD.
When ignorant people like you and some of the Trump-hating media pukes spew this garbage, you are creating a panic situation that is totally unnecessary.
This thing will play itself out very soon. continuing to shut down the country will kill a lot more people than the virus ever could.
I am still waiting for one of you prophets of doom to tell us how many of the old sick people who have died with the virus would have died anyway from their underlying conditions. Until you can do that, all the stats are meaningless.
The average seasonal flu death rate is .1%
The average coronavirus death rate in the United States is 1.77%
The average coronavirus death rate in Italy is 11.03%
So the coronavirus death is anywhere from 17 times to 110 times as deadly as season flu.
More importantly ask yourself this: If this is nothing more serious then seasonal flu, why are cities building new make shift hospitals and make shift morgues? Why are hospitals at capacity with their ICU Beds? Why are there not enough Ventilators?
If you take time to think about and answer those questions, you will realize that stating this is nothing more serious than seasonal flu is total rubbish.
stop with the BS, post the actual numbers of flu deaths and the actual number of corona deaths. You are posting propaganda, not truth.
"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."
It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.
We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.
NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.
In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!
You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.
There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!
Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.
I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.
We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.
Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....
We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.
There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.
There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.
Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.
No, we cannot just lock down non-essential services indefinitely.
Millions of people will not survive financially indefinitely with a few grand from the government. There is no bailout large enough to stave off what will happen under some indefinite shutdown. Unemployment will continue to skyrocket, business will fold, bankruptcies will mount, foreclosures will follow. These things are going to happen already and the longer this goes on the larger those numbers will get as more and more people are pushed underwater.
Locking everything down does not shorten the timeframe here. I'm not sure where you got that idea but it is wrong. If anything it extends the timeframe. Flattening the curve does not necessarily mean less cases- it spreads them over time, which results in a longer timeframe. All we need to do is look at the x-axis on any one of the graphs already put out, which plot time vs cases to see that. We can hope as spring arrives some of this will lessen, and maybe it will, but that's uncertain.
If the data indicates it we need to reshape our thinking as that data evolves. That data seems to have been updated by the same experts most people have been telling us we should be looking to for answers, and we are looking at new information just over the last few days. This new data seemingly contradicts a lot of what we have been told to this point which has shaped our thinking and our strategies. We need to incorporate updated information into our decision-making process here and not just sit in the most conservative position possible across the entire country.
There has to be an end game here and we need to start figuring out what that looks like and continue moving forward. Just locking down nationally indefinitely is not a plan, nor is waiting until we have a vaccine, as that's a year+ out.
This is a national emergency. Non-essential business's, their closure, the unemployment levels are irrelevant to defeating the Pathogen and saving lives. Most experts believe that the lockdown is the best way to save lives, protect the healthcare system, as well as protect the economy. The non-essential business's can reopen when this WAR is over. There may be multiple shut down cycles we go through before a vaccine is available and used.
Thousands of non-essential business's shut down during World War II and over 16 million men were taken out of the economy and sent over seas to fight in foreign countries. This is what happens in a national emergency and the country can maintain this for years if necessary, because it has in the past.
The most in debt this country ever was, was the year after World War II ended.
Also, it is NOT for sure, that there will be another outbreak after this lockdown is lifted or that if there is one that it will be as bad. More importantly, it would have saved lives, bought the medical and scientific community time, and we would be closer to a vaccine.
The fact is, the lockdown plan is what 99% of the nations on earth have adopted and plan to pursue until the pathogen is defeated.
The idiots that want to reopen non-essential services are in the minority. Even if your non-essential business reopens, no one is going to go there or use it in the middle of the pandemic.
Continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again doesnt make it more true.
Nor is this an either-or choice on a global level for the entire country. Some areas are, and will, be more effected. Some portions of the population are more at risk than others.
And yes, it is all but certain that the disease will not be simply 'defeated' and will continue to circulate during any lockdown only to re-emerge once it is lifted. Without a vaccine or some amount of herd immunity to begin to shift numbers from those susceptible to those not susceptible, that is nothing but simple math.
All of the histrionics in the world won't save people's homes and futures from some misapplied global lockdown. The country must, and will, open up in areas where it can while remaining vigilant to keep the infection numbers within the ability of the system to handle them. That is all these measures have ever been intended to do, as most people realize that economic considerations have to be part of our calculus, whether we like it or not.
And, again, as you seem to be ignoring this fact completely, the data we had 2 weeks ago is apparently not what experts are saying now. We don't plot a course based on old data, nor should we.
We're not doing this for years. That you think that throwing millions of families out of their homes with no way to earn money to even feed themselves and destabilizing our economy for decades is a better option than phasing economic activity back in where possible honestly baffles the heck out of me.
Sorry, but were not going to kill people and let this pathogen ravage the country in order to open up non-essential business's. Even if you did open these places up, they are not going to get any business or nothing like they would in normal times. That's reality. The only way to save lives and the economy is to DEFEAT THE PATHOGEN. Until that happens, there will be no returning to business as usual, even if an IDIOT decides to try it. The States are far more for the lockdowns than the idiot Trump.
The lockdown stays until the virus is contained or a vaccine is developed. That's the way it is NOW, and that is the way it will continue to be until containment or a vaccine occurs.
Well, I guess we'll see about that. Given that most experts seem to share the opinion that this will be more piecemeal than not, you may be in for a surprise.
And again, there are more options than A or B. Its hard to discuss that if you're going to stay laser focused on that as if these are the only options when in reality there are a range. And there are a range for areas and communities, and so on.
We cannot simply wait this out, nor shoukd we, as, as people are exposed and have some immunity they should go back to work
We are not going to wait for a vaccine, nor should we if the new numbers we are looking at are accurate, as thats 1-2 years out and that strategy likely destroys more lives than it saves. You may think that, but, again, I think youre in for a bit of a surprise there.
Most experts worldwide support the lockdown which is why 99% of country's worldwide are locked down when it comes to non-essential business.
Actually there is no middle ground. It really is A or B given what it takes to contain and defeat a Pathogen. Bill Gates emphasized that on CNN the other night. He also pointed out that will be out of this sooner if we prevent the foolish from opening non-essential services up too soon.
There is no problem with keeping non-essential business such for two years, or more, if neccessary. Again, look at World War II.
The hope is that sometime this summer, we might be in the place where China is now, and could then consider to start to open things up. But opening things up will be based on PUBLIC HEALTH and SCIENCE, not some raving lunatic who wants their non-essential business to be open again for their own personal reasons. Sorry, but the country comes before you and your non-essential business.
equating a war economy to a pandemic economics is like insistingSend the checks. If we need another round then send round 2.
And when the country goes bankrupt, and then there's no checks, or food, or anything.... will it be worth it?
Hard question...
The United States did not go bankrupt in World War II when all the non-essential business's closed down and everything was geared toward the war effort including sending 1/3 of labor force overseas to fight and blow stuff up. Its true that a year after the war ended, the national debt reached its highest level as a percentage of GDP at 121%, but that was the price that had to be paid for victory. The United States has done pretty good over the last 75 years.
>>>>
~S~
I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.
To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.
Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened
Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing
Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.
We can not let this thing beat us...The economy needs to get going again with the understanding that people must pay attention to their surroundings, and practice good hygine...
The only way to beat this thing, they way it has been proven to be defeated, is through extreme lockdown and testing. Lockdown and Testing are the two pillars. Until the PATHOGEN is defeated, non-essential business is irrelevant. This is a national crises and sacrifices must be made to defeat the enemy.
Hmmm, how about if we treat it like we treated chicken pox and measles? continue our lives and people get it, recover, and then have a life time immunity?
What is gained by stopping the virus and destroying the country?
That idea would kill 1 million Americans by the end of April. That would be a disaster which is why every government on the planet is not doing that.
The country is not going to be destroyed by shutting down non-essential services. The United States shut down thousands of business's during World War II that were not essential to the war effort.
Right now, millions of American lives are at stake because this virus and the deaths from it are growing exponentially. It is not like some other disease. It is a deadly pathogen that is easily transmissible.
Were talking about people's lives here.
you are wrong, the mortality rate of corona has been shown to be very close to the annual flu. THIS IS NOT A DISASTER THAT IS GOING TO DESTROY THE WORLD.
When ignorant people like you and some of the Trump-hating media pukes spew this garbage, you are creating a panic situation that is totally unnecessary.
This thing will play itself out very soon. continuing to shut down the country will kill a lot more people than the virus ever could.
I am still waiting for one of you prophets of doom to tell us how many of the old sick people who have died with the virus would have died anyway from their underlying conditions. Until you can do that, all the stats are meaningless.
The average seasonal flu death rate is .1%
The average coronavirus death rate in the United States is 1.77%
The average coronavirus death rate in Italy is 11.03%
So the coronavirus death is anywhere from 17 times to 110 times as deadly as season flu.
More importantly ask yourself this: If this is nothing more serious then seasonal flu, why are cities building new make shift hospitals and make shift morgues? Why are hospitals at capacity with their ICU Beds? Why are there not enough Ventilators?
If you take time to think about and answer those questions, you will realize that stating this is nothing more serious than seasonal flu is total rubbish.
stop with the BS, post the actual numbers of flu deaths and the actual number of corona deaths. You are posting propaganda, not truth.
Death rate = deaths divided by infections.
What has been pointed out many times, that you refuse to acknowledge, is that the flu kills more people every year than this virus ever will.
How can you make that statement with any degree of certainty?
the CDC stats support that statement. Do you believe them? even with the worst projections for the virus the number of deaths would be less than the annual flu deaths.
equating a war economy to a pandemic economics is like insistingSend the checks. If we need another round then send round 2.
And when the country goes bankrupt, and then there's no checks, or food, or anything.... will it be worth it?
Hard question...
The United States did not go bankrupt in World War II when all the non-essential business's closed down and everything was geared toward the war effort including sending 1/3 of labor force overseas to fight and blow stuff up. Its true that a year after the war ended, the national debt reached its highest level as a percentage of GDP at 121%, but that was the price that had to be paid for victory. The United States has done pretty good over the last 75 years.
>>>>
~S~
Its the same thing. Non-essential services closed up, and government spending was massively increased. Does not matter the reason why it was done, just that it was in fact done. The fact is the economy can do this and has done this in the past.
What has been pointed out many times, that you refuse to acknowledge, is that the flu kills more people every year than this virus ever will.
How can you make that statement with any degree of certainty?
the CDC stats support that statement. Do you believe them? even with the worst projections for the virus the number of deaths would be less than the annual flu deaths.
Are you able to provide their “worst projections” so I can see for myself?
I grew up on a farm, so it takes a lot to get me worked up.I could say the same about “you on the right”. (Maybe we will quarantine all of New York, right?)No. Why does everything need to be one extreme or the other?As to the number killed, this is no where near as deadly as the annual flu and we never shut the country down for the flu.
There’s a lot of logical problems with this statement.
For starters, the first case of COVID showed up here about two months ago and is still growing at a rapid rate. You can not compare annual influenza deaths to the cumulative number of COVID deaths. Remember, we lost 500 people yesterday. And that number of deaths per day is only increasing so far.
Second, we have put into place unprecedented restrictions, which we all hope will be effective. I fear that if they are effective at limiting the spread of the virus, people will assume the restrictions were not necessary in the first place because COVID wasn’t “all that bad” and ignore the reason for that.
run for the hills, everybody panic, hoard toilet paper, hide from your neighbors, run, run, run its gonna kill us all=====================yaaaaa
happy now?
its you on the left that are screaming for the extremes. I am pleading for common sense.
You are mischaracterizing me by assuming that I am saying something I’m not.
a quarantine of NYC may be appropriate for a while. I am just waiting for an outbreak in the homeless in LA and SFO where there is no sanitation and human waste is running in the gutters. Then what? Whose fault would that be?
It would be an extreme measure. Common sense argues against it.
Are you under the impression that COVID is enteric? Homeless populations are indeed high risk. That’s true anywhere. I’ve seen some people putting them up in currently empty hotels as a temporary measure.
Ok, lets explore that, the homeless of SFO are living on the sidewalks, shitting and pissing in the gutters and all that is running into SFO bay where your precious turtles and seals live, but OH we banned the evil plastic straws, so all is good, right?
It is very likely that the homeless will be the next group affected, whose fault is it that California has so many people living on the streets? Try to answer honestly.
Death is permanent; businesses evolve. We ordered out last night and picked up a wonderful meal from a 4.5 star restaurant which was fabulous. Many small restaurants are doing take out, they bring out the food to our car.
I noted the 3/4 of the voters want to open the doors to save our economy. It verified my belief that 3/4 of our members actually believe donald trump and believe this will not spread to impact millions of children and adults in all 50 states.
I don't listen to trump&co; I listened to the mayors and governors, the doctors and nurses, the first responders and to the anchors on local news.
Mortgage holders won't foreclose on any successful business, nor will suppliers who will need the businesses to open when it is deemed safe to do so, by WHO, the CDC and local leaders. Not when trump says it's safe, he is no authority on anything, let alone the health and well being of all Americans.
