POLL: Open the economy up and go back to work - Stay home and shutdown

[Fueri]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.

I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.

We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.

Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....

We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.

There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.

There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.

Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.

No, we cannot just lock down non-essential services indefinitely.

Millions of people will not survive financially indefinitely with a few grand from the government. There is no bailout large enough to stave off what will happen under some indefinite shutdown. Unemployment will continue to skyrocket, business will fold, bankruptcies will mount, foreclosures will follow. These things are going to happen already and the longer this goes on the larger those numbers will get as more and more people are pushed underwater.

Locking everything down does not shorten the timeframe here. I'm not sure where you got that idea but it is wrong. If anything it extends the timeframe. Flattening the curve does not necessarily mean less cases- it spreads them over time, which results in a longer timeframe. All we need to do is look at the x-axis on any one of the graphs already put out, which plot time vs cases to see that. We can hope as spring arrives some of this will lessen, and maybe it will, but that's uncertain.

If the data indicates it we need to reshape our thinking as that data evolves. That data seems to have been updated by the same experts most people have been telling us we should be looking to for answers, and we are looking at new information just over the last few days. This new data seemingly contradicts a lot of what we have been told to this point which has shaped our thinking and our strategies. We need to incorporate updated information into our decision-making process here and not just sit in the most conservative position possible across the entire country.

There has to be an end game here and we need to start figuring out what that looks like and continue moving forward. Just locking down nationally indefinitely is not a plan, nor is waiting until we have a vaccine, as that's a year+ out.

This is a national emergency. Non-essential business's, their closure, the unemployment levels are irrelevant to defeating the Pathogen and saving lives. Most experts believe that the lockdown is the best way to save lives, protect the healthcare system, as well as protect the economy. The non-essential business's can reopen when this WAR is over. There may be multiple shut down cycles we go through before a vaccine is available and used.

Thousands of non-essential business's shut down during World War II and over 16 million men were taken out of the economy and sent over seas to fight in foreign countries. This is what happens in a national emergency and the country can maintain this for years if necessary, because it has in the past.

The most in debt this country ever was, was the year after World War II ended.

Also, it is NOT for sure, that there will be another outbreak after this lockdown is lifted or that if there is one that it will be as bad. More importantly, it would have saved lives, bought the medical and scientific community time, and we would be closer to a vaccine.

The fact is, the lockdown plan is what 99% of the nations on earth have adopted and plan to pursue until the pathogen is defeated.

The idiots that want to reopen non-essential services are in the minority. Even if your non-essential business reopens, no one is going to go there or use it in the middle of the pandemic.

Continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again doesnt make it more true.

Nor is this an either-or choice on a global level for the entire country. Some areas are, and will, be more effected. Some portions of the population are more at risk than others.

And yes, it is all but certain that the disease will not be simply 'defeated' and will continue to circulate during any lockdown only to re-emerge once it is lifted. Without a vaccine or some amount of herd immunity to begin to shift numbers from those susceptible to those not susceptible, that is nothing but simple math.

All of the histrionics in the world won't save people's homes and futures from some misapplied global lockdown. The country must, and will, open up in areas where it can while remaining vigilant to keep the infection numbers within the ability of the system to handle them. That is all these measures have ever been intended to do, as most people realize that economic considerations have to be part of our calculus, whether we like it or not.

And, again, as you seem to be ignoring this fact completely, the data we had 2 weeks ago is apparently not what experts are saying now. We don't plot a course based on old data, nor should we.

We're not doing this for years. That you think that throwing millions of families out of their homes with no way to earn money to even feed themselves and destabilizing our economy for decades is a better option than phasing economic activity back in where possible honestly baffles the heck out of me.

 

[sparky]

This crises is the same thing.

how so?

~S~

Non-essential services shut down while essential services ramp up production. It happened in World War II and its happening now.

methinks you've got that just a tad skewed U2

the then labor force simply were redirected to 'war effort' jobs

they weren't told they were non-essential & outta work

Like yours truly ,along with my construction mates

Distorting history to paint it to your view is...

~S~

 

[kyzr]

Not really a good reason, either isolate or take your chances with the virus.
IMHO businesses will be reopening sooner rather than later.

You asked the question, I gave an answer. I have been out and about as much as I always have- btw, I saw a click bait headline that said people in their mid 30's were getting hit hard with this shit- so, now how many more do you want to make stay home?
And, by what authority do you propose to make the wet dream come true? We're either a country operating under the rule of law or the edict of man. Which do you prefer?

1. I'm sure that if there is a lock-down of businesses, or of cities like NYC, it will be a soft compliance enforcement.
2. An infant just died, so it can hit any age group.
3. The "authority" can be "marshal law" or what they are using now. No one has the time or spare cash to take it to court, oh, BTW, the courts are closed.

 

[Likkmee]

Everyone here is on self-lockdown. I welded a muffler on a scooter today and my taxi company bud had to get out of the "metro area' and is doing some ribs on my BBQ down by the cabins where he'll crash a couple of days.

 

[justoffal]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

All of the lock down measures that I've seen, have not been effective, as near as I can tell.
The clear example of this, would be Italy, which is again as near as I can tell, has the most strict and harsh lock down measure of any country.

Yet virus infections are still rising.

So.... given there doesn't seem to be much value in lock down, then we are left with a pointless policy that damages the entire economy. Corona, no matter which way you look at it, will be short term. Damage to the economy will be long term.

Now I do understand the logic, of trying to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Again... not seeing that this is working.

I tried to explain this to these guys before it all has to do with the natural logarithm of increase. Most socially transmitted diseases fall well within the realm of controllability by virtue of their contagion factor. But this thing is right off the charts. It really makes a person suspicious that it shows up with a two-week incubation period. Now consider the fact that the natural logarithm also has an inverse proportionality. Since 3 is a limit that it never reaches the fact that this thing has a contagion factor of more than that indicates that it's probably not controllable at all. Based on our ability to increase our treatment of it we find ourselves falling below the natural logarithm of increase. And we will never surpass that because nothing in nature ever has. Along comes covid-19 where the infected person most likely contacts hundreds of people before he knows he's even sick.
The mathematical indicators create an impossible scenario. Even those places that are now boasting control and containment or complete elimination will eventually be ravaged. It's inescapable.

Jo

 

[initforme]

It's going to be at least a month. That's conservative. The health Care is being overrun. This cannot be accepted.

 

[U2Edge]

Ho

This crises is the same thing.

how so?

~S~

Non-essential services shut down while essential services ramp up production. It happened in World War II and its happening now.

methinks you've got that just a tad skewed U2

the then labor force simply were redirected to 'war effort' jobs

they weren't told they were non-essential & outta work

Like yours truly ,along with my construction mates

Distorting history to paint it to your view is...

~S~

Staying home is your job if your not in an essential service. The government is sending out many to millions of people that are staying home. Cash to stay home in this pandemic is no different that cash to go to another country and fight Nazi's in World War II. Your doing a job important to DEFEATING THE ENEMY and receiving money from the government.

 

[U2Edge]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

All of the lock down measures that I've seen, have not been effective, as near as I can tell.
The clear example of this, would be Italy, which is again as near as I can tell, has the most strict and harsh lock down measure of any country.

Yet virus infections are still rising.

So.... given there doesn't seem to be much value in lock down, then we are left with a pointless policy that damages the entire economy. Corona, no matter which way you look at it, will be short term. Damage to the economy will be long term.

Now I do understand the logic, of trying to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Again... not seeing that this is working.

I tried to explain this to these guys before it all has to do with the natural logarithm of increase. Most socially transmitted diseases fall well within the realm of controllability by virtue of their contagion factor. But this thing is right off the charts. It really makes a person suspicious that it shows up with a two-week incubation period. Now consider the fact that the natural logarithm also has an inverse proportionality. Since 3 is a limit that it never reaches the fact that this thing has a contagion factor of more than that indicates that it's probably not controllable at all. Based on our ability to increase our treatment of it we find ourselves falling below the natural logarithm of increase. And we will never surpass that because nothing in nature ever has. Along comes covid-19 where the infected person most likely contacts hundreds of people before he knows he's even sick.
The mathematical indicators create an impossible scenario. even those places that are now boasting control and containment or complete elimination will eventually be ravaged. It's inescapable.

Jo

You can't be ravaged if your on lockdown. China has effectively controlled it. If there is a second wave after they reopen, they can lockdown again. As time goes by, we get closer to a vaccine. With a vaccine, everything changes.

Japan only has 1,500 cases. Its under control there. It could have been that way too for the United States, but Trump and the rest of the leadership failed to act in January and February.

 

[justoffal]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

All of the lock down measures that I've seen, have not been effective, as near as I can tell.
The clear example of this, would be Italy, which is again as near as I can tell, has the most strict and harsh lock down measure of any country.

Yet virus infections are still rising.

So.... given there doesn't seem to be much value in lock down, then we are left with a pointless policy that damages the entire economy. Corona, no matter which way you look at it, will be short term. Damage to the economy will be long term.

Now I do understand the logic, of trying to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Again... not seeing that this is working.

I tried to explain this to these guys before it all has to do with the natural logarithm of increase. Most socially transmitted diseases fall well within the realm of controllability by virtue of their contagion factor. But this thing is right off the charts. It really makes a person suspicious that it shows up with a two-week incubation period. Now consider the fact that the natural logarithm also has an inverse proportionality. Since 3 is a limit that it never reaches the fact that this thing has a contagion factor of more than that indicates that it's probably not controllable at all. Based on our ability to increase our treatment of it we find ourselves falling below the natural logarithm of increase. And we will never surpass that because nothing in nature ever has. Along comes covid-19 where the infected person most likely contacts hundreds of people before he knows he's even sick.
The mathematical indicators create an impossible scenario. even those places that are now boasting control and containment or complete elimination will eventually be ravaged. It's inescapable.

Jo

You can't be ravaged if your on lockdown. China has effectively controlled it. If there is a second wave after they reopen, they can lockdown again. As time goes by, we get closer to a vaccine. With a vaccine, everything changes.

Japan only has 1,500 cases. Its under control there. It could have been that way too for the United States, but Trump and the rest of the leadership failed to act in January and February.

I agree with one point....Vaccine yes.
Other than that I predict global exposure
Is inevitable.... It's not going away.

Jo

 

[U2Edge]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.

I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.

We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.

Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....

We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.

There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.

There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.

Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.

No, we cannot just lock down non-essential services indefinitely.

Millions of people will not survive financially indefinitely with a few grand from the government. There is no bailout large enough to stave off what will happen under some indefinite shutdown. Unemployment will continue to skyrocket, business will fold, bankruptcies will mount, foreclosures will follow. These things are going to happen already and the longer this goes on the larger those numbers will get as more and more people are pushed underwater.

Locking everything down does not shorten the timeframe here. I'm not sure where you got that idea but it is wrong. If anything it extends the timeframe. Flattening the curve does not necessarily mean less cases- it spreads them over time, which results in a longer timeframe. All we need to do is look at the x-axis on any one of the graphs already put out, which plot time vs cases to see that. We can hope as spring arrives some of this will lessen, and maybe it will, but that's uncertain.

If the data indicates it we need to reshape our thinking as that data evolves. That data seems to have been updated by the same experts most people have been telling us we should be looking to for answers, and we are looking at new information just over the last few days. This new data seemingly contradicts a lot of what we have been told to this point which has shaped our thinking and our strategies. We need to incorporate updated information into our decision-making process here and not just sit in the most conservative position possible across the entire country.

There has to be an end game here and we need to start figuring out what that looks like and continue moving forward. Just locking down nationally indefinitely is not a plan, nor is waiting until we have a vaccine, as that's a year+ out.

This is a national emergency. Non-essential business's, their closure, the unemployment levels are irrelevant to defeating the Pathogen and saving lives. Most experts believe that the lockdown is the best way to save lives, protect the healthcare system, as well as protect the economy. The non-essential business's can reopen when this WAR is over. There may be multiple shut down cycles we go through before a vaccine is available and used.

Thousands of non-essential business's shut down during World War II and over 16 million men were taken out of the economy and sent over seas to fight in foreign countries. This is what happens in a national emergency and the country can maintain this for years if necessary, because it has in the past.

The most in debt this country ever was, was the year after World War II ended.

Also, it is NOT for sure, that there will be another outbreak after this lockdown is lifted or that if there is one that it will be as bad. More importantly, it would have saved lives, bought the medical and scientific community time, and we would be closer to a vaccine.

The fact is, the lockdown plan is what 99% of the nations on earth have adopted and plan to pursue until the pathogen is defeated.

The idiots that want to reopen non-essential services are in the minority. Even if your non-essential business reopens, no one is going to go there or use it in the middle of the pandemic.

Continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again doesnt make it more true.

Nor is this an either-or choice on a global level for the entire country. Some areas are, and will, be more effected. Some portions of the population are more at risk than others.

And yes, it is all but certain that the disease will not be simply 'defeated' and will continue to circulate during any lockdown only to re-emerge once it is lifted. Without a vaccine or some amount of herd immunity to begin to shift numbers from those susceptible to those not susceptible, that is nothing but simple math.

All of the histrionics in the world won't save people's homes and futures from some misapplied global lockdown. The country must, and will, open up in areas where it can while remaining vigilant to keep the infection numbers within the ability of the system to handle them. That is all these measures have ever been intended to do, as most people realize that economic considerations have to be part of our calculus, whether we like it or not.

And, again, as you seem to be ignoring this fact completely, the data we had 2 weeks ago is apparently not what experts are saying now. We don't plot a course based on old data, nor should we.

We're not doing this for years. That you think that throwing millions of families out of their homes with no way to earn money to even feed themselves and destabilizing our economy for decades is a better option than phasing economic activity back in where possible honestly baffles the heck out of me.

Sorry, but were not going to kill people and let this pathogen ravage the country in order to open up non-essential business's. Even if you did open these places up, they are not going to get any business or nothing like they would in normal times. That's reality. The only way to save lives and the economy is to DEFEAT THE PATHOGEN. Until that happens, there will be no returning to business as usual, even if an IDIOT decides to try it. The States are far more for the lockdowns than the idiot Trump.

The lockdown stays until the virus is contained or a vaccine is developed. That's the way it is NOW, and that is the way it will continue to be until containment or a vaccine occurs.

 

[U2Edge]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

All of the lock down measures that I've seen, have not been effective, as near as I can tell.
The clear example of this, would be Italy, which is again as near as I can tell, has the most strict and harsh lock down measure of any country.

Yet virus infections are still rising.

So.... given there doesn't seem to be much value in lock down, then we are left with a pointless policy that damages the entire economy. Corona, no matter which way you look at it, will be short term. Damage to the economy will be long term.

Now I do understand the logic, of trying to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Again... not seeing that this is working.

I tried to explain this to these guys before it all has to do with the natural logarithm of increase. Most socially transmitted diseases fall well within the realm of controllability by virtue of their contagion factor. But this thing is right off the charts. It really makes a person suspicious that it shows up with a two-week incubation period. Now consider the fact that the natural logarithm also has an inverse proportionality. Since 3 is a limit that it never reaches the fact that this thing has a contagion factor of more than that indicates that it's probably not controllable at all. Based on our ability to increase our treatment of it we find ourselves falling below the natural logarithm of increase. And we will never surpass that because nothing in nature ever has. Along comes covid-19 where the infected person most likely contacts hundreds of people before he knows he's even sick.
The mathematical indicators create an impossible scenario. even those places that are now boasting control and containment or complete elimination will eventually be ravaged. It's inescapable.

Jo

You can't be ravaged if your on lockdown. China has effectively controlled it. If there is a second wave after they reopen, they can lockdown again. As time goes by, we get closer to a vaccine. With a vaccine, everything changes.

Japan only has 1,500 cases. Its under control there. It could have been that way too for the United States, but Trump and the rest of the leadership failed to act in January and February.

I agree with one point....Vaccine yes.
Other than that I predict global exposure
Is inevitable.... It's not going away.

Jo

Well, the planet is going to do everything to avoid that because global exposure involves millions of deaths and the destruction of the health care system. A lot of medical professionals and people who have studied disease are more confident we can beat this thing provided we stay locked down.

Again, until you see a second wave in China the same or greater than the first wave, you can't say its a certainty.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

Let the cowards stay home. All welfare and unemployment checks denied. They can pretend their in Venezuela and eat their pets.

 

[Weatherman2020]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.

I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.

We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.

Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....

We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.

There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.

There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.

Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.

No, we cannot just lock down non-essential services indefinitely.

Millions of people will not survive financially indefinitely with a few grand from the government. There is no bailout large enough to stave off what will happen under some indefinite shutdown. Unemployment will continue to skyrocket, business will fold, bankruptcies will mount, foreclosures will follow. These things are going to happen already and the longer this goes on the larger those numbers will get as more and more people are pushed underwater.

Locking everything down does not shorten the timeframe here. I'm not sure where you got that idea but it is wrong. If anything it extends the timeframe. Flattening the curve does not necessarily mean less cases- it spreads them over time, which results in a longer timeframe. All we need to do is look at the x-axis on any one of the graphs already put out, which plot time vs cases to see that. We can hope as spring arrives some of this will lessen, and maybe it will, but that's uncertain.

If the data indicates it we need to reshape our thinking as that data evolves. That data seems to have been updated by the same experts most people have been telling us we should be looking to for answers, and we are looking at new information just over the last few days. This new data seemingly contradicts a lot of what we have been told to this point which has shaped our thinking and our strategies. We need to incorporate updated information into our decision-making process here and not just sit in the most conservative position possible across the entire country.

There has to be an end game here and we need to start figuring out what that looks like and continue moving forward. Just locking down nationally indefinitely is not a plan, nor is waiting until we have a vaccine, as that's a year+ out.

This is a national emergency. Non-essential business's, their closure, the unemployment levels are irrelevant to defeating the Pathogen and saving lives. Most experts believe that the lockdown is the best way to save lives, protect the healthcare system, as well as protect the economy. The non-essential business's can reopen when this WAR is over. There may be multiple shut down cycles we go through before a vaccine is available and used.

Thousands of non-essential business's shut down during World War II and over 16 million men were taken out of the economy and sent over seas to fight in foreign countries. This is what happens in a national emergency and the country can maintain this for years if necessary, because it has in the past.

The most in debt this country ever was, was the year after World War II ended.

Also, it is NOT for sure, that there will be another outbreak after this lockdown is lifted or that if there is one that it will be as bad. More importantly, it would have saved lives, bought the medical and scientific community time, and we would be closer to a vaccine.

The fact is, the lockdown plan is what 99% of the nations on earth have adopted and plan to pursue until the pathogen is defeated.

The idiots that want to reopen non-essential services are in the minority. Even if your non-essential business reopens, no one is going to go there or use it in the middle of the pandemic.

Continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again doesnt make it more true.

Nor is this an either-or choice on a global level for the entire country. Some areas are, and will, be more effected. Some portions of the population are more at risk than others.

And yes, it is all but certain that the disease will not be simply 'defeated' and will continue to circulate during any lockdown only to re-emerge once it is lifted. Without a vaccine or some amount of herd immunity to begin to shift numbers from those susceptible to those not susceptible, that is nothing but simple math.

All of the histrionics in the world won't save people's homes and futures from some misapplied global lockdown. The country must, and will, open up in areas where it can while remaining vigilant to keep the infection numbers within the ability of the system to handle them. That is all these measures have ever been intended to do, as most people realize that economic considerations have to be part of our calculus, whether we like it or not.

And, again, as you seem to be ignoring this fact completely, the data we had 2 weeks ago is apparently not what experts are saying now. We don't plot a course based on old data, nor should we.

We're not doing this for years. That you think that throwing millions of families out of their homes with no way to earn money to even feed themselves and destabilizing our economy for decades is a better option than phasing economic activity back in where possible honestly baffles the heck out of me.

Sorry, but were not going to kill people and let this pathogen ravage the country in order to open up non-essential business's. Even if you did open these places up, they are not going to get any business or nothing like they would in normal times. That's reality. The only way to save lives and the economy is to DEFEAT THE PATHOGEN. Until that happens, there will be no returning to business as usual, even if an IDIOT decides to try it. The States are far more for the lockdowns than the idiot Trump.

The lockdown stays until the virus is contained or a vaccine is developed. That's the way it is NOW, and that is the way it will continue to be until containment or a vaccine occurs.

It’s the flu. The annual flu. Look at the data.

 

[Fueri]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.

I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.

We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.

Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....

We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.

There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.

There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.

Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.

No, we cannot just lock down non-essential services indefinitely.

Millions of people will not survive financially indefinitely with a few grand from the government. There is no bailout large enough to stave off what will happen under some indefinite shutdown. Unemployment will continue to skyrocket, business will fold, bankruptcies will mount, foreclosures will follow. These things are going to happen already and the longer this goes on the larger those numbers will get as more and more people are pushed underwater.

Locking everything down does not shorten the timeframe here. I'm not sure where you got that idea but it is wrong. If anything it extends the timeframe. Flattening the curve does not necessarily mean less cases- it spreads them over time, which results in a longer timeframe. All we need to do is look at the x-axis on any one of the graphs already put out, which plot time vs cases to see that. We can hope as spring arrives some of this will lessen, and maybe it will, but that's uncertain.

If the data indicates it we need to reshape our thinking as that data evolves. That data seems to have been updated by the same experts most people have been telling us we should be looking to for answers, and we are looking at new information just over the last few days. This new data seemingly contradicts a lot of what we have been told to this point which has shaped our thinking and our strategies. We need to incorporate updated information into our decision-making process here and not just sit in the most conservative position possible across the entire country.

There has to be an end game here and we need to start figuring out what that looks like and continue moving forward. Just locking down nationally indefinitely is not a plan, nor is waiting until we have a vaccine, as that's a year+ out.

This is a national emergency. Non-essential business's, their closure, the unemployment levels are irrelevant to defeating the Pathogen and saving lives. Most experts believe that the lockdown is the best way to save lives, protect the healthcare system, as well as protect the economy. The non-essential business's can reopen when this WAR is over. There may be multiple shut down cycles we go through before a vaccine is available and used.

Thousands of non-essential business's shut down during World War II and over 16 million men were taken out of the economy and sent over seas to fight in foreign countries. This is what happens in a national emergency and the country can maintain this for years if necessary, because it has in the past.

The most in debt this country ever was, was the year after World War II ended.

Also, it is NOT for sure, that there will be another outbreak after this lockdown is lifted or that if there is one that it will be as bad. More importantly, it would have saved lives, bought the medical and scientific community time, and we would be closer to a vaccine.

The fact is, the lockdown plan is what 99% of the nations on earth have adopted and plan to pursue until the pathogen is defeated.

The idiots that want to reopen non-essential services are in the minority. Even if your non-essential business reopens, no one is going to go there or use it in the middle of the pandemic.

Continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again doesnt make it more true.

Nor is this an either-or choice on a global level for the entire country. Some areas are, and will, be more effected. Some portions of the population are more at risk than others.

And yes, it is all but certain that the disease will not be simply 'defeated' and will continue to circulate during any lockdown only to re-emerge once it is lifted. Without a vaccine or some amount of herd immunity to begin to shift numbers from those susceptible to those not susceptible, that is nothing but simple math.

All of the histrionics in the world won't save people's homes and futures from some misapplied global lockdown. The country must, and will, open up in areas where it can while remaining vigilant to keep the infection numbers within the ability of the system to handle them. That is all these measures have ever been intended to do, as most people realize that economic considerations have to be part of our calculus, whether we like it or not.

And, again, as you seem to be ignoring this fact completely, the data we had 2 weeks ago is apparently not what experts are saying now. We don't plot a course based on old data, nor should we.

We're not doing this for years. That you think that throwing millions of families out of their homes with no way to earn money to even feed themselves and destabilizing our economy for decades is a better option than phasing economic activity back in where possible honestly baffles the heck out of me.

Sorry, but were not going to kill people and let this pathogen ravage the country in order to open up non-essential business's. Even if you did open these places up, they are not going to get any business or nothing like they would in normal times. That's reality. The only way to save lives and the economy is to DEFEAT THE PATHOGEN. Until that happens, there will be no returning to business as usual, even if an IDIOT decides to try it. The States are far more for the lockdowns than the idiot Trump.

The lockdown stays until the virus is contained or a vaccine is developed. That's the way it is NOW, and that is the way it will continue to be until containment or a vaccine occurs.

Well, I guess we'll see about that. Given that most experts seem to share the opinion that this will be more piecemeal than not, you may be in for a surprise.

And again, there are more options than A or B. Its hard to discuss that if you're going to stay laser focused on that as if these are the only options when in reality there are a range. And there are a range for areas and communities, and so on.

We cannot simply wait this out, nor shoukd we, as, as people are exposed and have some immunity they should go back to work

We are not going to wait for a vaccine, nor should we if the new numbers we are looking at are accurate, as thats 1-2 years out and that strategy likely destroys more lives than it saves. You may think that, but, again, I think youre in for a bit of a surprise there.

 

[initforme]

Send the checks. If we need another round then send round 2.

 

[justoffal]

[PrayQUOTE="U2Edge, post: 24338566, member: 39692"]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

All of the lock down measures that I've seen, have not been effective, as near as I can tell.
The clear example of this, would be Italy, which is again as near as I can tell, has the most strict and harsh lock down measure of any country.

Yet virus infections are still rising.

So.... given there doesn't seem to be much value in lock down, then we are left with a pointless policy that damages the entire economy. Corona, no matter which way you look at it, will be short term. Damage to the economy will be long term.

Now I do understand the logic, of trying to flatten the curve, and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. Again... not seeing that this is working.

I tried to explain this to these guys before it all has to do with the natural logarithm of increase. Most socially transmitted diseases fall well within the realm of controllability by virtue of their contagion factor. But this thing is right off the charts. It really makes a person suspicious that it shows up with a two-week incubation period. Now consider the fact that the natural logarithm also has an inverse proportionality. Since 3 is a limit that it never reaches the fact that this thing has a contagion factor of more than that indicates that it's probably not controllable at all. Based on our ability to increase our treatment of it we find ourselves falling below the natural logarithm of increase. And we will never surpass that because nothing in nature ever has. Along comes covid-19 where the infected person most likely contacts hundreds of people before he knows he's even sick.
The mathematical indicators create an impossible scenario. even those places that are now boasting control and containment or complete elimination will eventually be ravaged. It's inescapable.

Jo

You can't be ravaged if your on lockdown. China has effectively controlled it. If there is a second wave after they reopen, they can lockdown again. As time goes by, we get closer to a vaccine. With a vaccine, everything changes.

Japan only has 1,500 cases. Its under control there. It could have been that way too for the United States, but Trump and the rest of the leadership failed to act in January and February.

I agree with one point....Vaccine yes.
Other than that I predict global exposure
Is inevitable.... It's not going away.

Jo

Well, the planet is going to do everything to avoid that because global exposure involves millions of deaths and the destruction of the health care system. A lot of medical professionals and people who have studied disease are more confident we can beat this thing provided we stay locked down.

Again, until you see a second wave in China the same or greater than the first wave, you can't say its a certainty.
[/QUOTE]

God speed and pray that you are right.

Jo

 

[kyzr]

Send the checks. If we need another round then send round 2.

1. No money to send checks. We just can't keep printing money, then we're Venezuela.
2. We can get a lot more people back to work, Abbot Labs developed a 15-minute test
3. We'll be back to work in late April, except: sports, all crowds, cruise ships, etc. fly, shop, offices, courts, etc. with testing

 

[Slyhunter]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.

I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.

We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.

Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....

We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.

There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.

There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.

Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.

so you want to line up in bread lines like in 1929 and 1930? Geez, dude, this thing is no where near as bad as you lefties want it to be. It won't help Biden, so get real and stop posting BS

Can you name another time in the nations history when every school K-12 was closed in every state? Hospitals are running out of supplies, beds, and ventilators. Pennsylvania, not seen as a crises state had 60% of its ICU beds still available two days ago. Now Pennsylvania is down to only 40% available, after just two more days. At this rate, regardless of what a person is sick from, if they need an ICU bed in Pennsylvania, there won't be one available in two weeks. That is a disaster, and it is potentially on its way to every state in the Union.

When people can't get ICU beds or ventilators they need to survive, people die. Because the hospitals are at capacity, it won't just be people with coronavirus they will be dying, it will be everyone who needs they services but can't get them, that will be dying.

Had Trump shut the country's borders and lockdown the rest of the country back in February, the United States could have prevented much of the disaster that is happening. Trump did not care or only take partial measures which are useless in fighting a dangerous Pathogen.

The United States has 120,000 cases and 2,000 dead now.

Compare that with JAPAN which only has 1,700 cases and 52 dead. Japan's healthcare system is doing just fine. In the United States, the healthcare system is going to fall apart if this is not brought under control.

So unless your in an essential service, you STAY HOME TO SAVE LIVES!

Japan doesn't host very many non-Japanese. Your saying we should've closed the borders to all the non-whites.

 

[Slyhunter]

Ho

This crises is the same thing.

how so?

~S~

Non-essential services shut down while essential services ramp up production. It happened in World War II and its happening now.

methinks you've got that just a tad skewed U2

the then labor force simply were redirected to 'war effort' jobs

they weren't told they were non-essential & outta work

Like yours truly ,along with my construction mates

Distorting history to paint it to your view is...

~S~

Staying home is your job if your not in an essential service. The government is sending out many to millions of people that are staying home. Cash to stay home in this pandemic is no different that cash to go to another country and fight Nazi's in World War II. Your doing a job important to DEFEATING THE ENEMY and receiving money from the government.

If everyone is going to stay at home who will be left to make the Toilet Paper?

 

[Andylusion]

It's going to be at least a month. That's conservative. The health Care is being overrun. This cannot be accepted.

Well, I mean... when you say "this cannot be accepted"... that's a bit ridiculous. If Corona was 10 times more dangerous, we'd have millions of people in the hospital.

What exactly would you suggest we do? Just hand out degrees, and assign people as doctors and nurses? Just have people in sleeping bags in gyms?

You can't just magically create more health care service out of thin air.

And maybe you missed it, but you can't simply "buy" it either. Like I said, you can't just knight them with a sword, and deem them competent health care staff.

Even if we could.... do you really want to bankrupt the entire country like Greece? We don't have trillions of dollars laying around, because you gave it all out in welfare entitlements, and all your green energy programs, and infrastructure programs.

So what exactly would you have us do? Just borrow non-stop until the government implodes, and then all the hospitals dependent on government money close... like Greece, and Venezuela, and others? You think it's bad when it's overwhelmed..... get ready if you pay for it with government money, and the money runs out.

So really... I'd like to hear what your plan is, to have a health care system that can magically take care of 50 Million people. What is it?