POLL: Open the economy up and go back to work - Stay home and shutdown

[Gdjjr]

Not that. The economic one. Stock market crash.

Either or. It makes no difference. INactivity perpetuates is.

 

[Slyhunter]

you don't KNOW that is would come roaring back, but you WANT it to coming roaring back. why?

The hell you say.

MY best interest would be for this to be over tomorrow and my business to open up again...but that's not going to happen nor should it.

Know why?

Because it's dangerous for my customers, my employees and society as a whole

And anyone who things that a pandemic wouldn't come roaring back if we don't deal with it effectively is just plain stupid

dude should we lock our doors and hide from every disease that pops up, like the Flu? What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

Doesn't matter. The majority is always wrong anyway.

I'll tell you why. It's because the majority never thinks outside the box. The majority stays within the box. And the box's boundaries are always very well defined. The majority only thinks inside defined boundaries. And it's a very small box.

I mean, look at the poll questions. Respectfully speaking. It's a true reflection of the box that's been placed around us. While around 97% are gonna think only within the boundaries of those defined walls, only about 3% are gonna think outside of it. Unfortunately, they're drowned out by the majority.

I'd seen a TED Talk where a guy explained that phenomenon rather well, but I'm not gonna bother looking for it.

So, poll needs more options. Final answer.

 

[U2Edge]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.

I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.

We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.

Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....

We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.

There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.

There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.

Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.

so you want to line up in bread lines like in 1929 and 1930? Geez, dude, this thing is no where near as bad as you lefties want it to be. It won't help Biden, so get real and stop posting BS

Can you name another time in the nations history when every school K-12 was closed in every state? Hospitals are running out of supplies, beds, and ventilators. Pennsylvania, not seen as a crises state had 60% of its ICU beds still available two days ago. Now Pennsylvania is down to only 40% available, after just two more days. At this rate, regardless of what a person is sick from, if they need an ICU bed in Pennsylvania, there won't be one available in two weeks. That is a disaster, and it is potentially on its way to every state in the Union.

When people can't get ICU beds or ventilators they need to survive, people die. Because the hospitals are at capacity, it won't just be people with coronavirus they will be dying, it will be everyone who needs they services but can't get them, that will be dying.

Had Trump shut the country's borders and lockdown the rest of the country back in February, the United States could have prevented much of the disaster that is happening. Trump did not care or only take partial measures which are useless in fighting a dangerous Pathogen.

The United States has 120,000 cases and 2,000 dead now.

Compare that with JAPAN which only has 1,700 cases and 52 dead. Japan's healthcare system is doing just fine. In the United States, the healthcare system is going to fall apart if this is not brought under control.

So unless your in an essential service, you STAY HOME TO SAVE LIVES!

 

[Natural Citizen]

As long as these governors know that the federal government is gonna keep printing money to give them what they want, the governors are gonna just keep shutting more and more things down in order to frame the need for the Feds to do that. It's a revolving circle here. The Federal government is actually encouraging governors to shut down things by continuing to give these governors what they want.


Pelosi already has corona 4.0 written and ready to roll out. And with a boat load more pork in it than yesterday's corona 3.0 passage.

So, yeah. They're gonna keep shutting more things down. Things you don't want shut down. Seriously.

 

[U2Edge]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

We can not let this thing beat us...The economy needs to get going again with the understanding that people must pay attention to their surroundings, and practice good hygine...

The only way to beat this thing, they way it has been proven to be defeated, is through extreme lockdown and testing. Lockdown and Testing are the two pillars. Until the PATHOGEN is defeated, non-essential business is irrelevant. This is a national crises and sacrifices must be made to defeat the enemy.

Hmmm, how about if we treat it like we treated chicken pox and measles? continue our lives and people get it, recover, and then have a life time immunity?

What is gained by stopping the virus and destroying the country?

That idea would kill 1 million Americans by the end of April. That would be a disaster which is why every government on the planet is not doing that.

The country is not going to be destroyed by shutting down non-essential services. The United States shut down thousands of business's during World War II that were not essential to the war effort.

Right now, millions of American lives are at stake because this virus and the deaths from it are growing exponentially. It is not like some other disease. It is a deadly pathogen that is easily transmissible.

Were talking about people's lives here.

 

[sparky]

That is a disaster, and it is potentially on its way to every state in the Union.

~S~

 

[Mustang]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

To re-open the US economy in a limited fashion around Easter Monday (4/13/20) with masks, social distancing, no sports venues, no cruises, or major crowds, just minimal re-opening businesses. The object is to keep as many companies in-business as possible.

Trump wants to reopen US businesses in weeks 'not months' even as deaths rise â as it happened

Democrats voted to oppose motion on the coronavirus stimulus bill, while Dr Anthony Fauci and others warn against scaling back social distancing

www.theguardian.com

Or, keep the economy and businesses shutdown until the coronavirus (COVID-19) is under control as recommended by the doctors, even if that means that many businesses would NOT re-open due to the lost revenue and bankruptcy.

There are plenty of businesses that are still open.

 

[U2Edge]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Yes, and that's why we're trying to flatten the curve to keep from overwhelming the medical system, which makes sense, however, these prognostications of millions dead are looking increasingly wrong.

I cited the article. Fauci's name is on it, BTW. If you'd like to take issue with it, go ahead.

We are seeing growth in the numbers of cases here because we've just implemented larger scale testing and, of course, it is still spreading. Everyone, literally everyone, expected the numbers to spike once larger scale testing was implemented and, of course, they are.

Discussing opening up sections of the economy where the data indicates lesser risk makes sense. I know you think we should basically just dig a hole and climb in, as I've seen your posts, but we cannot do that indefinitely. If the data says otherwise, and it is beginning to look like the early numbers were flat wrong, that makes no sense. We have to strike a balance here.....

We can lock down non-essential services indefinitely. This is a national emergency. I hope the exponential growth is stopped, but if it is not, with doubling every three days and a 1% death rate, by the end of April with those stats, you will see 1 million dead Americans. That's basic math. There were 54,000 infections on March 24 and that nearly doubled by March 27 with 104,000 infections. A 1.6% death rate. At that rate, you will have 1 million dead Americans by the end of April! That's what the basic math shows.

There is NO reason for NON-ESSENTIAL services to be reopened for the next 3 months or 6 months if necessary. This is a national crises. The two ways you defeat this PATHOGEN are LOCKDOWN and increased testing.

There is overwhelming evidence of what happens when you don't lockdown and increase testing. There is NO EVIDENCE that shutting down non-essential services for 3 months or 3 years would not be something the country could not come back from.

Look at what happened during the Great Depression and World War II. Shutting down non-essential services is key to defeating this enemy, and every day you don't do that, you EXTEND THE CRISES which makes the overall economic hardship greater.

No, we cannot just lock down non-essential services indefinitely.

Millions of people will not survive financially indefinitely with a few grand from the government. There is no bailout large enough to stave off what will happen under some indefinite shutdown. Unemployment will continue to skyrocket, business will fold, bankruptcies will mount, foreclosures will follow. These things are going to happen already and the longer this goes on the larger those numbers will get as more and more people are pushed underwater.

Locking everything down does not shorten the timeframe here. I'm not sure where you got that idea but it is wrong. If anything it extends the timeframe. Flattening the curve does not necessarily mean less cases- it spreads them over time, which results in a longer timeframe. All we need to do is look at the x-axis on any one of the graphs already put out, which plot time vs cases to see that. We can hope as spring arrives some of this will lessen, and maybe it will, but that's uncertain.

If the data indicates it we need to reshape our thinking as that data evolves. That data seems to have been updated by the same experts most people have been telling us we should be looking to for answers, and we are looking at new information just over the last few days. This new data seemingly contradicts a lot of what we have been told to this point which has shaped our thinking and our strategies. We need to incorporate updated information into our decision-making process here and not just sit in the most conservative position possible across the entire country.

There has to be an end game here and we need to start figuring out what that looks like and continue moving forward. Just locking down nationally indefinitely is not a plan, nor is waiting until we have a vaccine, as that's a year+ out.

This is a national emergency. Non-essential business's, their closure, the unemployment levels are irrelevant to defeating the Pathogen and saving lives. Most experts believe that the lockdown is the best way to save lives, protect the healthcare system, as well as protect the economy. The non-essential business's can reopen when this WAR is over. There may be multiple shut down cycles we go through before a vaccine is available and used.

Thousands of non-essential business's shut down during World War II and over 16 million men were taken out of the economy and sent over seas to fight in foreign countries. This is what happens in a national emergency and the country can maintain this for years if necessary, because it has in the past.

The most in debt this country ever was, was the year after World War II ended.

Also, it is NOT for sure, that there will be another outbreak after this lockdown is lifted or that if there is one that it will be as bad. More importantly, it would have saved lives, bought the medical and scientific community time, and we would be closer to a vaccine.

The fact is, the lockdown plan is what 99% of the nations on earth have adopted and plan to pursue until the pathogen is defeated.

The idiots that want to reopen non-essential services are in the minority. Even if your non-essential business reopens, no one is going to go there or use it in the middle of the pandemic.

 

[sparky]

So, yeah. They're gonna keep shutting more things down. Things you don't want shut down. Seriously.

I'm starting to feel like a terrorist spark now

allahu ackbar!!!

~S~

 

[U2Edge]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Dear Math Tard
As the number of people tested increases , let’s say from 25,000 per day to 75,000 per day, then the number of positives well may triple also. That’s not the 3X buzzword “exponential” you alarmists keep throwing around.
It’s the normal, step by step, progression of a larger sample size

You don't know that for sure. No one knows how far behind testing is to actual cases. We can only go by the information available, and right now its bad, the number infections doubles every three days. Until that slows down, were in trouble.

 

[sparky]

This is a national emergency

so???>>>>

List of national emergencies in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

~S~

 

[U2Edge]

No economy?

No country.

At this point the left seems to think we don' need no stinkin' country and I'm beginning to think we might be better without one, too. Every person for him/her/it self! Grow your own or starve.

There is still an economy in ESSENTIAL SERVICES. The Healthcare industry is 20% of the economy anyways.

Lots of non-essential services disappeared during World War II. Nearly 1/3 of the workforce at the time was sent overseas to fight in other countries. Despite all that, we still had an economy and a country. This crises is the same thing.

 

[sparky]

Pelosi already has corona 4.0 written and ready to roll out. And with a boat load more pork in it than yesterday's corona 3.0 passage.

i think i have it good as a pig farmer.....sheesh!

~S~

 

[sparky]

This crises is the same thing.

how so?

~S~

 

[WEATHER53]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Dear Math Tard
As the number of people tested increases , let’s say from 25,000 per day to 75,000 per day, then the number of positives well may triple also. That’s not the 3X buzzword “exponential” you alarmists keep throwing around.
It’s the normal, step by step, progression of a larger sample size

You don't know that for sure. No one knows how far behind testing is to actual cases. We can only go by the information available, and right now its bad, the number infections doubles every three days. Until that slows down, were in trouble.

I don’t know it absolutely “for sure” but I do know it far better than the “worst case” possible but unlikely outcomes that liberals are constantly portraying as actual occurrent events.

 

[Gdjjr]

Not really a good reason, either isolate or take your chances with the virus.
IMHO businesses will be reopening sooner rather than later.

You asked the question, I gave an answer. I have been out and about as much as I always have- btw, I saw a click bait headlilne that said people in their mid 30's were getting hit hard with this shit- so, now how many more do you want to make stay home?
And, by what authority do you propose to make the wet dream come true? We're either a country operating under the rule of law or the edict of man. Which do you prefer?

 

[U2Edge]

This crises is the same thing.

how so?

~S~

Non-essential services shut down while essential services ramp up production. It happened in World War II and its happening now.

 

[U2Edge]

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968)...."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387?fbclid=IwAR0SPSTfDLudxgJWv3HlenZz6jAil90aWNBxhh6nTRGWKsGmvw-_dRtH5u4

It's not the flu, it's not the flu.....oh, shit it's the flu.

We've been seeing a lot of reworking of these types of numbers over the past few days and most, if not all, that I've seen indicate that this was highly overestimated in terms of mortality rate and other metrics.

NOT discussing bringing elements of the economy back online in light of this data makes no sense whatsoever.

In the main hospital in Albany Georgia, every bed is full with Coronavirus patients. They have no more capacity left. That NEVER happens during flu season, and it is starting to happen in multiple cities around the country whether small or large! You'll soon see make shift morgues to handle the dead outside these hospitals as the body count rises. Does that happen during flu season? NO!

You wanna know why this is not the FLU, just ask any ER doctor in New York City! This is an unprecedented disaster! No one is going to go back to work to a non-essential service because that aids the virus in finding new host and increases the number of people that die.

There were 54,000 infections on March 24 in the United States. By the end of the day on March 27, there were 104,000 infections. That level of exponential growth, doubling every 3 to 4 days, will produce 5 million infections by Easter and a death toll of 50,000! The ENEMY, this PATHOGEN, has to be defeated before any non-essential service can open up again. Take this exponential growth to the end of April, and 1 million Americans would die because over 100 million would be infected! The daily infection rate increase must be cut from the average of 22% down below 8% and SOON!

Dear Math Tard
As the number of people tested increases , let’s say from 25,000 per day to 75,000 per day, then the number of positives well may triple also. That’s not the 3X buzzword “exponential” you alarmists keep throwing around.
It’s the normal, step by step, progression of a larger sample size

You don't know that for sure. No one knows how far behind testing is to actual cases. We can only go by the information available, and right now its bad, the number infections doubles every three days. Until that slows down, were in trouble.

I don’t know it absolutely “for sure” but I do know it far better than the “worst case” possible but unlikely outcomes that liberals are constantly portraying as actual occurrent events.

We only know confirmed cases and deaths from confirmed cases. Anything else is speculation. In a crises, you plan for the worst case situation.

 

[kyzr]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion but can't figure out who has the majority.

Doesn't matter. The majority is always wrong anyway.

I'll tell you why. It's because the majority never thinks outside the box. The majority stays within the box. And the box's boundaries are always very well defined. The majority only thinks inside defined boundaries. And it's a very small box.

I mean, look at the poll questions. Respectfully speaking. It's a true reflection of the box that's been placed around us. While around 97% are gonna think only within the boundaries of those defined walls, only about 3% are gonna think outside of it. Unfortunately, they're drowned out by the majority.

I'd seen a TED Talk where a guy explained that phenomenon rather well, but I'm not gonna bother looking for it.

So, poll needs more options. Final answer.

You typed a lot of words without much usable info.
1. List the options you would like to have seen.
2. "The box" is generally there for your safety. Leave the boundaries of "the box" at your peril.
3. The majority is not always wrong, based on the law of averages.
4. The poll just wanted to see the proportion of "safety first" vs "some risk to keep the economy good is ok"