Perhaps another GREAT JOB Trump - apparently on the phone with Putin, and an hour later they had a cease fire agreement.

[Zavulon]

Proves my point.


Someone should give that advice to Putin or Chechnya not always be one of the most loyal regions of Russian Federation.

He knows. Russia has a long history of working with different peoples. That's why Russia has very liberal ethnic, cultural and linguistic policy.

Which of the two will offer Western prosperity and democracy AND allow Ukraine to live in peace with Russia?

Both of them should allow Ukraine live in peace with Russia. Pro-war candidates should not be allowed into elections at all.
I don't know what can suggest Trump and Arestovich, but Putin and Timoshenko can suggest rather good terms. Let people decide.

 

[Correll]

Certainly a temporary set back.

So that point you made, about them getting "what they wanted from the beginning", that was shit talk.

Libs refuse to engage in policy discussion, becasue on some level, they know that their policies are bad.

True and they desperately need to rebuild their image with some victories. It is not like Putin cares about the effect on Russia or Ukraine.

Your point was that the russians could just invade again, to try again.

I pointed out that that was not true, because of the bad shape they are in, after this war.

you admit that that is "true".

Yet you still try to support your point, that they might just invade again, becasue they need to rebuild their image, with victories that you have admitted they are not in shape to win.

And you make a reference to Putin being a bad guy, like that somehow negates teh military realities of the situation. Which is dumb. Childlike.


The truth is that Russia will not be in shape to try again, likely for a generation. At best. And hopefully, we can use that time constructively. By we I mean THe whole fucking world.

If they can reclaim their lost territory, more power to them.

ANd you ignore my point about the wisdom of attacking someone bigger than you. THanks for refusing to engage in discussion, on this discussion site.

 

[Correll]

You got no basis to set your "assumptions" onto - it's just your opinion

Ukraine is loosing ground simply to not having gotten the support that was "promised" to them - therefore the next couple of month will be decisive - till then anything on your behalf is just speculative lacking any factual knowledge in regards to the military layout of Ukraine and Russia.

I've explained my reasoning, and they are clearly not just assumptions. That is shit talk from you, dismissed.

YOU have no explained your...conclusion that the loss of territory by ukraine to russia is becasue of lack of support from teh west as opposed to simply being weakened by years of warfare and battle losses of men.

Nor why you think that the "next few months will be decisive", instead of just more pointless dying.


Hope is generally a good thing. BUT so is knowing when it is time to cut your losses.


This isn't because maga "loves putin" or any such shit talk. This is because we look at that war and see a pointless meatgrinder.

 

[Correll]

Roughly 2.5 mln in Crimea, plus 3.5 mln at already liberated lands of Novorussia, plus 2 mln of refuugees. So, we already have saved 8 mln of former Ukrainain citizens and there are still twenty million of them on Kievan-controlled territories.

Well, no sign your getting the rest, but ok that is a significant prize for your side. I will grant.

Wait a minute.... the whole population of ukraine is not even 40 million. YOu are EXAGGERATING the number of ethnic russians.

What are the real numbers?

You are just misinformed by your media and Kievan propaganda.

Even so. It's been THREE YEARS. You know when Putin gave the ok to go, that he was told by his generals that it would be over in a matter of months.

We don't want to scare them away. And, what is even more important, we need to prepare to war with the rest of Europe (and, may be, with the rest of NATO).

Western europe is imploding. You should read up on their population crash and the idiocy of how they are trying to deal with that by importing muslims by the millions. They are committing suicide.

If Russia could convince their young people to start having babies, Russia would win by just being the last man standing.

Sure, rebuild your military, but don't kid yourself that war with nato is likely going to be your big issues moving forward.

 

[alang1216]

So that point you made, about them getting "what they wanted from the beginning", that was shit talk.

No. All of Ukraine was what Russia "wanted from the beginning". They failed but their long term goal has probably not changed.

Libs refuse to engage in policy discussion, becasue on some level, they know that their policies are bad.

You keep saying that so I guess it is a great comfort to you.

Your point was that the russians could just invade again, to try again.

I pointed out that that was not true, because of the bad shape they are in, after this war.

you admit that that is "true".

Yet you still try to support your point, that they might just invade again, becasue they need to rebuild their image, with victories that you have admitted they are not in shape to win.

And you make a reference to Putin being a bad guy, like that somehow negates teh military realities of the situation. Which is dumb. Childlike.

The truth is that Russia will not be in shape to try again, likely for a generation. At best. And hopefully, we can use that time constructively. By we I mean THe whole fucking world.

Russia has been gravely weakened but so has Ukraine. Russia has learned a lot and may not make the same mistakes and assumptions next time. The badly miscalculated before and they can certainly do it again.

ANd you ignore my point about the wisdom of attacking someone bigger than you. THanks for refusing to engage in discussion, on this discussion site.

I don't recall you responding to my points on US-Vietnam and USSR-Afghanistan. Did I miss it?

 

[Correll]

No. All of Ukraine was what Russia "wanted from the beginning". They failed but their long term goal has probably not changed.


You keep saying that so I guess it is a great comfort to you.

YOu made the claim in post 239, that getting teh border provinces was "what they wanted from the beginning".

ie that the deal that I envisioned would thus be a complete win for the russians.

But that was shit talk. THey wanted it all. As you have admitted. You first point against my desired policy endgame was SHIT TALK.


You are against the peace deal I want, but you are LYING as to why.

Russia has been gravely weakened but so has Ukraine. Russia has learned a lot and may not make the same mistakes and assumptions next time. The badly miscalculated before and they can certainly do it again.

The primary mistake they made last time was overestimating their strength.

It is hard to credit that if in 5 years, PUtin's generals tell him, that it will be easy this time, that he will fall for that a second time.


AND, what exactly do you imagine that ukraine and europe will be doing during that time? Playing with theselves? I would hope that they have the fucking sense to finally put some money into their militaries and build up ukraine to a point that if the russians do roll across the border again, they can lose again.

I don't recall you responding to my points on US-Vietnam and USSR-Afghanistan. Did I miss it?

A lot of lefties have jumped all over the place in trying to justify their positions, without revealilng their real reasons. Most of you kind of blur together. I recall addressing some points about those analogies, but they didn't make a big impression on me.

You want to ask again, I will address it again. Try to keep is concise.

 

[alang1216]

YOu made the claim in post 239, that getting teh border provinces was "what they wanted from the beginning".

ie that the deal that I envisioned would thus be a complete win for the russians.

But that was shit talk. THey wanted it all. As you have admitted. You first point against my desired policy endgame was SHIT TALK.

You are against the peace deal I want, but you are LYING as to why.

When they took Crimea they only wanted a piece of Ukraine. When they invaded several years later they upped their game and wanted it all.

The primary mistake they made last time was overestimating their strength.

It is hard to credit that if in 5 years, PUtin's generals tell him, that it will be easy this time, that he will fall for that a second time.

They will be all new generals.

A lot of lefties have jumped all over the place in trying to justify their positions, without revealilng their real reasons. Most of you kind of blur together. I recall addressing some points about those analogies, but they didn't make a big impression on me.

You want to ask again, I will address it again. Try to keep is concise.

You said a small country could never defeat a larger more powerful one so I cited US-Vietnam and USSR-Afghanistan as examples where they did.

 

[Correll]

When they took Crimea they only wanted a piece of Ukraine. When they invaded several years later they upped their game and wanted it all.

If you are a serious person, this is where you drop the shit talk and admit that the russians have failed in their desire to get it all, and accepting a peace deal where they only keep what they hold, would be them LOSING THE WAR.

They will be all new generals.

That is irrelevant shit talk. The point is, that there is no way that Putin, within his remaining lifetime, will fall for the same stupid claim, ie that they are ready to easily crush ukraine, ie in a timely fashion at a reasonable price.

You said a small country could never defeat a larger more powerful one so I cited US-Vietnam and USSR-Afghanistan as examples where they did.

I did not say that. I would never say that. You have mischaractized what I did say, to the point of turning it into a retarded strawman.

EVERYTIME. you or any other lefty plays silly games like this, that is you revealing that you are unable to be honest in your support of this war.

You support a long war, but you refuse to tell us why. Or how many ukrainians you are willing to see die to reach your goals, whatever they are.

 

[citygator]

Is the war over yet? Oh. Nope.

Ukraine’s Zelensky says in a news conference that Kyiv has agreed to stop using military force in the Black Sea, but shortly after, the Kremlin says it will agree provided financial sanctions are lifted on key Russian institutions – thereby making the deal void.

Following that call, Trump told Newsmax he believes Russia wants to end its war with Ukraine, but that Moscow could be delaying a deal.

“I think that Russia wants to see an end to it, but it could be they’re dragging their feet. I’ve done it over the years,” the president told the right-wing cable channel.

 

[Correll]

Is the war over yet? Oh. Nope.

Ukraine’s Zelensky says in a news conference that Kyiv has agreed to stop using military force in the Black Sea, but shortly after, the Kremlin says it will agree provided financial sanctions are lifted on key Russian institutions – thereby making the deal void.

Following that call, Trump told Newsmax he believes Russia wants to end its war with Ukraine, but that Moscow could be delaying a deal.

“I think that Russia wants to see an end to it, but it could be they’re dragging their feet. I’ve done it over the years,” the president told the right-wing cable channel.

I have predicted that the war will be over in a matter of weeks.


This sounds pretty good. If Russia wants to end it, but is dragging their feet, then it won't be long.

 

[citygator]

I have predicted that the war will be over in a matter of weeks.


This sounds pretty good. If Russia wants to end it, but is dragging their feet, then it won't be long.

That quote was from a defeated Trump. He knows this will go no where. Only Putin's death moves the needle. Ukraine isnt surrendering and Putin doesnt give a shit what Trump thinks.

Id like to be wrong.

 

[Correll]

That quote was from a defeated Trump. He knows this will go no where. Only Putin's death moves the needle. Ukraine isnt surrendering and Putin doesnt give a shit what Trump thinks.

If we get a deal within two months, will you admit that you were wrong?


Just kidding. I know that you won't. Trump could spear an ukrianian flag though PUtins chest into russia soil in the kremlin and you would find some reason to claim it was a bad peace deal.

 

[Zavulon]

Well, no sign your getting the rest, but ok that is a significant prize for your side. I will grant.

Wait a minute.... the whole population of ukraine is not even 40 million. YOu are EXAGGERATING the number of ethnic russians.

Russians consider Ukrainians as Russians. As, say, most of Americans see Californians or Texans as Americans.

What are the real numbers?

Those are real numbers. There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians who became citizens of Russia.

Even so. It's been THREE YEARS. You know when Putin gave the ok to go, that he was told by his generals that it would be over in a matter of months.

Really? Who told you this? Previous time elimination of Banderlogs in Western Ukraine took more than thirty years of counter-guerilla war. Turning Chechnya from the zone of terrorism and separatism into one of the safest and loyal regions of Russian Federation took roughly 15 years and demanded significant intellectual efforts. And West Ukraine is six times larger than Chechnya. In some way it would be simplier, in some way - more complicated, but there were no way to finish the job in less than ten years (even with all those new technologies).
Actually, the current elimination of Banderlogs in trenches (far from civilians) might even make further denazification of the rest of Ukraine.

Western europe is imploding. You should read up on their population crash and the idiocy of how they are trying to deal with that by importing muslims by the millions. They are committing suicide.

Yep. And as they are committing suicide they might decide that the "terrible end" (war with Russia and death of 90% of European population) might be lesser evil than "terror without end" (decline of Europe). Actually, they act as if they already decided to commit "instant suicide".

If Russia could convince their young people to start having babies, Russia would win by just being the last man standing.

There is no reason to have babies if Ruropeans will kill them before they (babies) became adults. We need safe future for our babies, and this is exactly why we need to eliminate Banderlogs and European Nazies.

Sure, rebuild your military, but don't kid yourself that war with nato is likely going to be your big issues moving forward.

War with NATO (if we are talking about NATO including both European and American members) is going to be large scale war. And the term "large-scale war" means that we'll use everything (including nuclear, biological and chemical weapons).
And NATO forces simply aren't ready for this kind of war.

 

[Zavulon]

I have predicted that the war will be over in a matter of weeks.

No, it won't. Bet ten to one. Russia doesn't want it, Ukraine doesn't want it, Europe doesn't want it, and, looks like, America doesn't want it too.

This sounds pretty good. If Russia wants to end it, but is dragging their feet, then it won't be long.

Russia wants lasting peace, which means victory, not ceasefire.

And Macron just declared that France and England are going to escalate (which means nuclear war in Europe).

 

[alang1216]

If you are a serious person, this is where you drop the shit talk and admit that the russians have failed in their desire to get it all, and accepting a peace deal where they only keep what they hold, would be them LOSING THE WAR.

So the Russians get to keep Crimea and the other provinces they occupy. That is winning. Ukraine gets to permanently lose territory, pay to rebuild their country, and get no guarantees of future security. That is losing.

That is irrelevant shit talk. The point is, that there is no way that Putin, within his remaining lifetime, will fall for the same stupid claim, ie that they are ready to easily crush ukraine, ie in a timely fashion at a reasonable price.

Putin may be gone but the Russian mentality will remain.

You support a long war, but you refuse to tell us why. Or how many ukrainians you are willing to see die to reach your goals, whatever they are.

As I've said, weakening Russia is in the interest of Ukraine and the West. I'm willing to support every Ukrainian who is willing to fight Russia.

 

[Correll]

Russians consider Ukrainians as Russians. As, say, most of Americans see Californians or Texans as Americans.

The bitterness of the fighting against your forces, strongly indicates that that feelings is not fully shared.

Really? Who told you this? Previous time elimination of Banderlogs in Western Ukraine took more than thirty years of counter-guerilla war. Turning Chechnya from the zone of terrorism and separatism into one of the safest and loyal regions of Russian Federation took roughly 15 years and demanded significant intellectual efforts. And West Ukraine is six times larger than Chechnya. In some way it would be simplier, in some way - more complicated, but there were no way to finish the job in less than ten years (even with all those new technologies).
Actually, the current elimination of Banderlogs in trenches (far from civilians) might even make further denazification of the rest of Ukraine.

The pro-war people ALWAYS convince themselves that it will be easier than it is.

If we ever get the records, i would be happy to bet large sums of money that we would find that the estimated time was no more than 6 months, bonus if it is less than 3.

Yep. And as they are committing suicide they might decide that the "terrible end" (war with Russia and death of 90% of European population) might be lesser evil than "terror without end" (decline of Europe). Actually, they act as if they already decided to commit "instant suicide".

Maybe if they were 100% poles, they might have that kind of spine. Modern europeans, no fucking way. You might as well sleep with a night light becasue you are afraid of the monster in the closet.

There is no reason to have babies if Ruropeans will kill them before they (babies) became adults. We need safe future for our babies, and this is exactly why we need to eliminate Banderlogs and European Nazies.

You are making excuse to avoid harder and more real problem.

War with NATO (if we are talking about NATO including both European and American members) is going to be large scale war. And the term "large-scale war" means that we'll use everything (including nuclear, biological and chemical weapons).
And NATO forces simply aren't ready for this kind of war.

Again, you are focusing on easier, pretend problem to avoid real issue, ie population crash.

 

[Correll]

No, it won't. Bet ten to one. Russia doesn't want it, Ukraine doesn't want it, Europe doesn't want it, and, looks like, America doesn't want it too.

Russia wants lasting peace, which means victory, not ceasefire.

And Macron just declared that France and England are going to escalate (which means nuclear war in Europe).

Macron does not have forces to escalate without US support, which Trump will not give him.


I stand by my prediction. A matter of several weeks. No more than two months.

 

[Correll]

So the Russians get to keep Crimea and the other provinces they occupy. That is winning. Ukraine gets to permanently lose territory, pay to rebuild their country, and get no guarantees of future security. That is losing.

Paying large numbers of men and material and NOT getting what they wanted, is LOSING.

Putin may be gone but the Russian mentality will remain.

Putin may be gone, the memory of the meatgrinder will remain. You stick your dick in a sausage making machine, it will be quite some time, before you want to do it AGAIN.

As I've said, weakening Russia is in the interest of Ukraine and the West. I'm willing to support every Ukrainian who is willing to fight Russia.

And again, you refuse to discuss the PRICE of your policy. ALL libs do that on this policy. All policies really, but ESPECIALLY this one.

 

[Zavulon]

So the Russians get to keep Crimea and the other provinces they occupy. That is winning.

It'd be a "partial victory". Without establishing reliable and lasting peace (i.e. without de-nazification of Ukraine and demilitarization of eastern Europe) there will be another war in few years.

Ukraine gets to permanently lose territory, pay to rebuild their country, and get no guarantees of future security. That is losing.

Ukraine lost when they decided to become an expendable NATO's pawn.

Putin may be gone but the Russian mentality will remain.

Yes, of course.

As I've said, weakening Russia is in the interest of Ukraine and the West. I'm willing to support every Ukrainian who is willing to fight Russia.

Are you ready to send to death those Ukrainians who are not willing to fight Russia? What price (in billions of dollars, in burned down American cities, in killed American citizens) are you ready to pay to "weaken" Russia?

 

[Zavulon]

The bitterness of the fighting against your forces, strongly indicates that that feelings is not fully shared.

As if during American Civil War South didn't see themselves as "Americans". It was about questions of slavery and future of America. Political and economical discussion.

And Ukrainian nazionalistic propaganda often depict "Moscowites" as "Non-Russians, but Mongols, Finns, Hungarians and N-ggers". As most of hate propaganda its not appealing to logic or knowledge, rather to emotions.
Like, say, "Hillbillies are not Americans, because only Hillbillies are true Americans, and all those Yankees are, in fact, degenerative descendants of N-ggers and Chinamen".

Or, say, do you know Rachel Bloom? The Jewish American actress?

So, let's imagine, that she came to West Covina, California, and start to declare (in poor Spanish) some stupid rhetoric about illegal occupation of Californian lands by Americans, about stealing California's resources during Gold Rush and about genocide of poor Californian people by evil Americans during the Great Depression, and that now, California not just declared independence, but also invite Russian and Chinese forces to defend it.
How will you percept it? There could be mostly two rational explanations: She's actually gone crazy (medically insane) or she was hired by China and/or Russia.

The pro-war people ALWAYS convince themselves that it will be easier than it is.

But military planners always play at least three scenarios: optimistic, realistic and pessimistic and most carefully plan the pessimistic one. Given that western involvement was the very reason for Russian invasion, I believe that the current scenario were in "realistic" file, more close to "optimistic".

If we ever get the records, i would be happy to bet large sums of money that we would find that the estimated time was no more than 6 months, bonus if it is less than 3.

Ok. Please be more specific about "large sums of money", and details of your prediction. Better in PM, of course.

Maybe if they were 100% poles, they might have that kind of spine. Modern europeans, no fucking way. You might as well sleep with a night light becasue you are afraid of the monster in the closet.

This monster is quite real I believe. And no, if you take a bush for tiger (and shoot it) - you lost only few cartridges. If you take a tiger for bush (and don't shoot) - you are dead.

You are making excuse to avoid harder and more real problem.

Odessa massacre and western cheers about it were pretty real. And the ressurection of European Nazism, as well as NATO expansion isn't some kind of a practical joke (as much as I can see).

Again, you are focusing on easier, pretend problem to avoid real issue, ie population crash.

I wouldn't say, that winning nuclear war against NATO is much "easier" (in any meaningful sense) than increasing of fertility.