Perhaps another GREAT JOB Trump - apparently on the phone with Putin, and an hour later they had a cease fire agreement.

[alang1216]

Paying large numbers of men and material and NOT getting what they wanted, is LOSING.

Russia still comes out way better than Ukraine.

Putin may be gone, the memory of the meatgrinder will remain. You stick your dick in a sausage making machine, it will be quite some time, before you want to do it AGAIN.

Maybe. I hope I'm wrong but you have more faith in politicians than I do.

And again, you refuse to discuss the PRICE of your policy. ALL libs do that on this policy. All policies really, but ESPECIALLY this one.

Whatever the cost of weakening Russia is a price I'm willing to pay. Ukrainians will make their own evaluation.

 

[alang1216]

It'd be a "partial victory". Without establishing reliable and lasting peace (i.e. without de-nazification of Ukraine and demilitarization of eastern Europe) there will be another war in few years.

I agree, that is why the West should enable Ukraine to fight as long as they are willing to do so.

Ukraine lost when they decided to become an expendable NATO's pawn.

Are you saying they never had any fear of Russia?

Are you ready to send to death those Ukrainians who are not willing to fight Russia? What price (in billions of dollars, in burned down American cities, in killed American citizens) are you ready to pay to "weaken" Russia?

Russia is good at making empty threats. How many of Russia's red lines have been crossed already.

 

[Correll]

As if during American Civil War South didn't see themselves as "Americans". It was about questions of slavery and future of America. Political and economical discussion.
.....

Not quite... they certainly wanted to be seperated from the larger portion, but point taken.

BUT, still, if you can't make it stick, and I believe at this point, most ukrainians seem t think of themselves as NOT RUSSIAN.

Counting them as "russian" is a bit...optimistic...more than realistic.

But military planners always play at least three scenarios: optimistic, realistic and pessimistic and most carefully plan the pessimistic one. Given that western involvement was the very reason for Russian invasion, I believe that the current scenario were in "realistic" file, more close to "optimistic".

I actually, don't believe that is true. I think you are projecting.... good work habits and professionalism, when very often wars start because of a FAILURE of those.

Ok. Please be more specific about "large sums of money", and details of your prediction. Better in PM, of course.

I'd probably be willing to bet 100$ on this, but it would require me to learn to use some electronic money transfer... not sure I want to bother. If you are all fired up to do it, you might be able to convince me.

This monster is quite real I believe. And no, if you take a bush for tiger (and shoot it) - you lost only few cartridges. If you take a tiger for bush (and don't shoot) - you are dead.


Odessa massacre and western cheers about it were pretty real. And the ressurection of European Nazism, as well as NATO expansion isn't some kind of a practical joke (as much as I can see).

99% plus of the accusatiosn of nazism over here, are retarded nonsense. I dismiss most of that shit.

Nato expansion is real... but western europe just doesn't have large miltaries ready to DO anything. There leadership is very much completely decadent like the french nobles just before the revolution. They are not serious people. They are doing more damage to their own nations, than they are to yours.

I wouldn't say, that winning nuclear war against NATO is much "easier" (in any meaningful sense) than increasing of fertility.

But it is. You are focusing your energy and BLAME outside, instead of INSIDE. That is always easier to sell to a people than doing the hard work of CHANGING a society for the bettter.

 

[Correll]

Russia still comes out way better than Ukraine.

Tell that to the russian families that don't have sons or fathers. Or to the russian taxpayers who have to fund the rebuilding of their military. Or the russian people who have suffered because of the economic problems of this war and the sanctions.

Do it ONLINE. You wouldn't want to shit talk people in real pain, like that is RL. They might react badly to you dismissing their real suffering and talking shit about how they "won".

THEY LOST. A big part of any DEAL, will be giving Putin some shit talk to pass on to his people, to try to SAVE FACE for himself and his regime.

Maybe. I hope I'm wrong but you have more faith in politicians than I do.

It has nothing to do with having FAITH in politicians. It has to do with the fact that this was a ******* disaster for Russia and Russia won't want to do it again.

Whatever the cost of weakening Russia is a price I'm willing to pay.

Estimates so far is over 120k ukrainians dead. You willing to spend that many again, to weaken Russia?

That's pretty... ruthless of you. I strongly disagree. I am not willing to spend ONE more ukrainian life just to weaken a nation that I feel we can already deter from attacking US easily.

Ukrainians will make their own evaluation.

I didn't ask you anything about the ukainians decisions. This is you trying to HIDE how bloody your policy is, by USING the ukrainians as POLITICAL COVER, for your complete ruthlessness.

 

[Zavulon]

I agree, that is why the West should enable Ukraine to fight as long as they are willing to do so.

And even when they are not willing.

Are you saying they never had any fear of Russia?

Do Californians have any fear of America? Some Ukrainians, first of all, anti-Russians, have all reasons to have fear of Russia, as well as some Californian politicians and criminals have all reasons to fear Washington and Republicans. But Californian Republicans, as well as Ukrainian Vatniks have nothing to fear, vice versa, they often support Washington (Moscow).

Russia is good at making empty threats. How many of Russia's red lines have been crossed already.

And how many Ukrainians, Euroepans and Americans are already dead?

Btw, had you already read the new US Intelligence Report? A lot of politically motivated BS, of course, but certain moments are more or less correct.

So, all what you actually made - just killed some random civilians and infantrymen (hardly more than Russia lose in traffic accidents). And every dollar payed to Ukrainian militants is not payed to American soldiers, veterans, engineers, workers and farmers.

 

[Zavulon]

Not quite... they certainly wanted to be seperated from the larger portion, but point taken.

They wanted to be separated, but the war changed their minds, didn't it?

BUT, still, if you can't make it stick, and I believe at this point, most ukrainians seem t think of themselves as NOT RUSSIAN.

Nobody force them to call themselves "Russians". My Mom was Ukrainian from Mariupol, and she always told that "Ukrainians" is just a geographical term, they are Russians. The boss of my boss came from Western Ukraine, from a little hamlet in Lvov oblast. In his childhood he was a typical Ragul (something like your Hillbillies), but after his military service he came in Moscow, he works here and earn good money. He still call himself Ukrainian, but nobody cares. Difference without difference is not a difference. He speaks without any accent, his manners are already refined, his appearance is decent. His children count themselves as Russians, and he doesn't care either.

Counting them as "russian" is a bit...optimistic...more than realistic.

Russia is a free country. Technically you can be whatever you want to be. There are twenty thousands of "ethnic Elves" in Russia. While they are not kill other people or commit other crimes nobody cares.

I actually, don't believe that is true. I think you are projecting.... good work habits and professionalism, when very often wars start because of a FAILURE of those.

It wasn't a failure. NATO expansion should have to be stopped and NATO's military infrastructure should be rolled back. Of course there is a lot of questions about efficiency, about timing, about many details (and special people ask those questions) but the general conception was right.

I'd probably be willing to bet 100$ on this, but it would require me to learn to use some electronic money transfer... not sure I want to bother. If you are all fired up to do it, you might be able to convince me.

Ten to one means that I suggest $1000 if your prediction is right (and you'll pay $100 if you are wrong). If you basically agree, and can make a proper verifiable statement - we'll discuss details in direct messages. Is that good enough?

99% plus of the accusatiosn of nazism over here, are retarded nonsense. I dismiss most of that shit.

Just different definitions of Nazism. You see Nazies as people who don't like Jews and Homosexuals. We see Nazies as people who don't like Russians.

Nato expansion is real... but western europe just doesn't have large miltaries ready to DO anything. There leadership is very much completely decadent like the french nobles just before the revolution. They are not serious people. They are doing more damage to their own nations, than they are to yours.

A leopard can't change its spots.
Weimar Republic was also quite decadent place. It took only three years for the first more or less direct conflict (in Spain) between Russia and Germany, less than one year from end of Civil war in Spain to start of WWII and less than two years from start of WWII to direct invasion of Germans in Russia.

But it is. You are focusing your energy and BLAME outside, instead of INSIDE. That is always easier to sell to a people than doing the hard work of CHANGING a society for the bettter.

Self-blaming and self-hitting is destructive behaviour. Most of inner problems, including the problem of fertility, can be solved with enough amount of money and resources. And, on other hand, any reforms without safety can't change a thing. Everything you do in country might be destroyed by the foreign invaders.

 

[alang1216]

Tell that to the russian families that don't have sons or fathers. Or to the russian taxpayers who have to fund the rebuilding of their military. Or the russian people who have suffered because of the economic problems of this war and the sanctions.

There are plenty of Ukrainian families that lost members too. Including some children illegally taken to Russia. Ukraine has to rebuild, not only their military but their civilian infrastructure too. It is hard to feel too bad for the Russians that died fighting in a foreign country when there are plenty of people killed in their own country.

Do it ONLINE. You wouldn't want to shit talk people in real pain, like that is RL. They might react badly to you dismissing their real suffering and talking shit about how they "won".

THEY LOST. A big part of any DEAL, will be giving Putin some shit talk to pass on to his people, to try to SAVE FACE for himself and his regime.

You'd think if they really lost they'd want to leave Ukraine as soon as possible. I feel no need to save Putin's face.

It has nothing to do with having FAITH in politicians. It has to do with the fact that this was a ******* disaster for Russia and Russia won't want to do it again.

WWI was a disaster for Germany but they couldn't wait to do it again.

Estimates so far is over 120k ukrainians dead. You willing to spend that many again, to weaken Russia?

That's pretty... ruthless of you. I strongly disagree. I am not willing to spend ONE more ukrainian life just to weaken a nation that I feel we can already deter from attacking US easily.

If the Ukrainians think 120K dead is worth the price of independence I'm right there with them. In spirit.

I didn't ask you anything about the ukainians decisions. This is you trying to HIDE how bloody your policy is, by USING the ukrainians as POLITICAL COVER, for your complete ruthlessness.

I think Putin is the ruthless one. He made the decisions that cost so many lives. When we were attacked in WWII we were prepared to pay just about any price, certainly in Japanese lives.

 

[alang1216]

Do Californians have any fear of America? Some Ukrainians, first of all, anti-Russians, have all reasons to have fear of Russia, as well as some Californian politicians and criminals have all reasons to fear Washington and Republicans. But Californian Republicans, as well as Ukrainian Vatniks have nothing to fear, vice versa, they often support Washington (Moscow).

So Ukrainians have no reason to fear Russia but Russia considers Ukraine to be an existential threat to it?

Btw, had you already read the new US Intelligence Report? A lot of politically motivated BS, of course, but certain moments are more or less correct.

View attachment 1094309

So, all what you actually made - just killed some random civilians and infantrymen (hardly more than Russia lose in traffic accidents). And every dollar payed to Ukrainian militants is not payed to American soldiers, veterans, engineers, workers and farmers.

The US has a long history of paranoia about Russia. There was a story that during the Cold War Stalin staged a May Day parade and flew every long-range bomber in the Russian air force, just a handful at the time, over Moscow. Then had them fly over several times more. The US freaked out about a 'bomber gap' with Russia.

 

[Zavulon]

So Ukrainians have no reason to fear Russia but Russia considers Ukraine to be an existential threat to it?

Russia doesn't consider Ukraine as an existential threat. Russia see NATO (with the USA) as an existential threat. And NATO forces (especially soon to be IRBMs) in Ukraine is as unacceptable for Russia as Russian IRBMs in Florida would be unacceptable for the USA. It's better to lose half of population in the war preventing their deployment there, rather than lost 90% of population in the further war, if you didn't prevent it.

The US has a long history of paranoia about Russia. There was a story that during the Cold War Stalin staged a May Day parade and flew every long-range bomber in the Russian air force, just a handful at the time, over Moscow. Then had them fly over several times more. The US freaked out about a 'bomber gap' with Russia.

It was not paranoia. It was better work of desinformation by Russian counterintelligence. My personal opinion that right now US intelligence rather underestimate the severity of their situation.

 

[Correll]

They wanted to be separated, but the war changed their minds, didn't it?

Nobody force them to call themselves "Russians". My Mom was Ukrainian from Mariupol, and she always told that "Ukrainians" is just a geographical term, they are Russians. The boss of my boss came from Western Ukraine, from a little hamlet in Lvov oblast. In his childhood he was a typical Ragul (something like your Hillbillies), but after his military service he came in Moscow, he works here and earn good money. He still call himself Ukrainian, but nobody cares. Difference without difference is not a difference. He speaks without any accent, his manners are already refined, his appearance is decent. His children count themselves as Russians, and he doesn't care either.


Russia is a free country. Technically you can be whatever you want to be. There are twenty thousands of "ethnic Elves" in Russia. While they are not kill other people or commit other crimes nobody cares.


It wasn't a failure. NATO expansion should have to be stopped and NATO's military infrastructure should be rolled back. Of course there is a lot of questions about efficiency, about timing, about many details (and special people ask those questions) but the general conception was right.


Ten to one means that I suggest $1000 if your prediction is right (and you'll pay $100 if you are wrong). If you basically agree, and can make a proper verifiable statement - we'll discuss details in direct messages. Is that good enough?

I have no desire to take that much from you. Not feeling it right now.

Just different definitions of Nazism. You see Nazies as people who don't like Jews and Homosexuals. We see Nazies as people who don't like Russians.

Incorrect. Nazis are people that support nazism, and are generally open to violence and genocide or similar policies.

A leopard can't change its spots.
Weimar Republic was also quite decadent place. It took only three years for the first more or less direct conflict (in Spain) between Russia and Germany, less than one year from end of Civil war in Spain to start of WWII and less than two years from start of WWII to direct invasion of Germans in Russia.

Weimar was beaten from outside forces. Today western europe is rotten from within.

Self-blaming and self-hitting is destructive behaviour. Most of inner problems, including the problem of fertility, can be solved with enough amount of money and resources. And, on other hand, any reforms without safety can't change a thing. Everything you do in country might be destroyed by the foreign invaders.

No one is turning this around. Russia turns it around, they will be the first. And would be in a much stronger position, in everything as rest of world crashes.

Blaming NATO and focusing anger and resentment on outsiders is easy.

 

[Correll]

There are plenty of Ukrainian families that lost members too. Including some children illegally taken to Russia. Ukraine has to rebuild, not only their military but their civilian infrastructure too. It is hard to feel too bad for the Russians that died fighting in a foreign country when there are plenty of people killed in their own country.

I said nothing about asking you to feel bad for them. My point was that they have lost the war, and they have.

Your refusal to address that, is your refusal to engage honestly on this issue.

You'd think if they really lost they'd want to leave Ukraine as soon as possible. I feel no need to save Putin's face.

Nope. I would not think that. I think that they want to hold on to what they have won, so that their massive sacrifices are not completely in vain.


If you want peace, giving putin a way to save face, could save hundreds of thousands of lives.

If you want to see people die in large numbers, then no, you don't want that.

WWI was a disaster for Germany but they couldn't wait to do it again.

Hitler came up with a fairly stupid lie and managed to sell it to the german people. And it didn't work out very well for him. Or the german people.

So, that's not really a good point.

If the Ukrainians think 120K dead is worth the price of independence I'm right there with them. In spirit.

And you again pivot away from discussing what you want and what you are willing to pay, to using the ukrainians as cover for your bloody policy.

I think Putin is the ruthless one. He made the decisions that cost so many lives. When we were attacked in WWII we were prepared to pay just about any price, certainly in Japanese lives.

And again you pivot from how YOU are willing to pay and price, in UKRAINIAN lives, to see Russia weakened.


YOu have a goal, and you are willing to pay the price. You just refuse to be honest about it.

 

[Ringo]

“Ukraine is a bus seized by terrorists, in which people lie with their hands tied and can do nothing. Security guarantees for Ukraine are direct transparent interaction with the Russian Federation. There are no other options”
Rada MP Artyom Dmytruk

 

[alang1216]

I said nothing about asking you to feel bad for them. My point was that they have lost the war, and they have.

Your refusal to address that, is your refusal to engage honestly on this issue.

In my opinion the Russians are winning.

Nope. I would not think that. I think that they want to hold on to what they have won, so that their massive sacrifices are not completely in vain.

Saving Putin is not my priority. I'd gladly see him lynched by his people.

If you want peace, giving putin a way to save face, could save hundreds of thousands of lives.

Having Putin lynched could save lives too.

If you want to see people die in large numbers, then no, you don't want that.

Putin has already killed large numbers.

Hitler came up with a fairly stupid lie and managed to sell it to the german people. And it didn't work out very well for him. Or the german people.

So, that's not really a good point.

Except it happened.

And you again pivot away from discussing what you want and what you are willing to pay, to using the ukrainians as cover for your bloody policy.

And again you pivot from how YOU are willing to pay and price, in UKRAINIAN lives, to see Russia weakened.

YOu have a goal, and you are willing to pay the price. You just refuse to be honest about it

Not sure why you have a comprehension problem. I've said my peace.

 

[Zavulon]

I have no desire to take that much from you. Not feeling it right now.

As you wish. But its not much at all, and its highly unlikely that there will be effective ceasefire. Anyway, make your prediction and let it be 1:1 - $100 for both sides

Incorrect. Nazis are people that support nazism, and are generally open to violence and genocide or similar policies.

All people are generally open to violence and genocide.

Weimar was beaten from outside forces. Today western europe is rotten from within.

And they'll attack exactly because of their rotten nature.

Blaming NATO and focusing anger and resentment on outsiders is easy.

Its that easy because NATO gave all reasons to hate them.

 

[Correll]

In my opinion the Russians are winning.

And to support that claim, you lied about what their starting goal was. It is interesting that you purposefully lied, in support of something you claim to believe in.

It is almost as though you can't grasp that if you have to lie to support it, then it is not the truth.

Saving Putin is not my priority. I'd gladly see him lynched by his people.


Having Putin lynched could save lives too.


Putin has already killed large numbers.

And here you play dumb to the point of pretending to forget that we were discussing a possibel DEAL, which requires both sides to get something out of it.


You just kind of twisted your thinking, and any value to the discussion just went away. Instead of you explaining your reasoning in support of your position, I have to explain how deals work and you are acting like Forrest Gump.

Except it happened.

More likely that russia would remember the pain and not want to repeat it.

Not sure why you have a comprehension problem. I've said my peace.

I asked what price you were willing to pay to reach your policy goal. You refused, as always, to give me your answer, instead you used teh ukrainians as a cover, to stonewall on the point. This is not a comprehension problem on my end, it is you refusing to answer a simple and VERY RELEVANT question. What price are you willing to pay, to weaken russia?

 

[Correll]

As you wish. But its not much at all, and its highly unlikely that there will be effective ceasefire. Anyway, make your prediction and let it be 1:1 - $100 for both sides

Less than two months. And I have no desire to exchange money. If you win, I will conceed and grant you the respect your greater wisdom earned you.

All people are generally open to violence and genocide.

I disagree. In America Genocide really isn't our thing.

And they'll attack exactly because of their rotten nature.

NOt unless they think America is there to provide the muscle. Which Trump is not going to allow.

Its that easy because NATO gave all reasons to hate them.

And internal change is harder.

 

[Zavulon]

Less than two months. And I have no desire to exchange money.

No reason to exchange money. Don't you have Telegram (with wallet) or something?

If you win, I will conceed and grant you the respect your greater wisdom earned you.

Or, if you afraid to send money in Russia (thought with Tg-wallet you can't be sure where exactly another side it), you can give $100 to a proper charity organisation. (Actually you can do it right now, for Zelenskiy and Europe already declined rather generous Trump's offer).

Like, say, this:

Home

The mission of the Fund for Assistance is to support the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, specifically, the moral-spiritual education of youth, aid to its clergy and distribution of emergency relief to its missions.

www.fundforassistance.org

Now you suggest a charity organisation for me to make a donation if you win, and there is a reliable ceasefire in two months.

I disagree. In America Genocide really isn't our thing.

Of course it's your thing. That's how America was founded and how it behaves in the world.

NOt unless they think America is there to provide the muscle. Which Trump is not going to allow.

We are not going to gamble with national security and safety of tens of millions Russian men, women and children making guessumptions about Trump's good will (for he didn't prove it yet).

And internal change is harder.

Ok. Show us an example. Roll back from Europe, return Mexican lands to Mexicans and then - try to change yourself.

 

[Zavulon]

And here you play dumb to the point of pretending to forget that we were discussing a possibel DEAL, which requires both sides to get something out of it.

Yep. Russia will take Europe, and America will keep Alaska and California. Its good deal and its real. Next offer will be worse.

More likely that russia would remember the pain and not want to repeat it.

In the matter of fact, the motto "we can repeat" (refering to WWII, and meaning that even forty million killed is an acceptable for victory) is quite popular in Russia.

I asked what price you were willing to pay to reach your policy goal. You refused, as always, to give me your answer, instead you used teh ukrainians as a cover, to stonewall on the point. This is not a comprehension problem on my end, it is you refusing to answer a simple and VERY RELEVANT question. What price are you willing to pay, to weaken russia?

It's obviously lesser than even one million killed, so you shouldn't even start the game you can't finish.

 

[alang1216]

And to support that claim, you lied about what their starting goal was. It is interesting that you purposefully lied, in support of something you claim to believe in.

It is almost as though you can't grasp that if you have to lie to support it, then it is not the truth.

When did the war start?

And here you play dumb to the point of pretending to forget that we were discussing a possibel DEAL, which requires both sides to get something out of it.

You just kind of twisted your thinking, and any value to the discussion just went away. Instead of you explaining your reasoning in support of your position, I have to explain how deals work and you are acting like Forrest Gump.

As I said, Ukraine gets nothing but gives a lot.

More likely that russia would remember the pain and not want to repeat it.

That is opinion, not fact.

I asked what price you were willing to pay to reach your policy goal. You refused, as always, to give me your answer, instead you used teh ukrainians as a cover, to stonewall on the point. This is not a comprehension problem on my end, it is you refusing to answer a simple and VERY RELEVANT question. What price are you willing to pay, to weaken russia?

Again I answered this, I'm willing to pay as much as the Ukrainians are willing to pay.

 

[Correll]

No reason to exchange money. Don't you have Telegram (with wallet) or something?

Nope. Haven't bothered. Sorry.

Or, if you afraid to send money in Russia (thought with Tg-wallet you can't be sure where exactly another side it), you can give $100 to a proper charity organisation. (Actually you can do it right now, for Zelenskiy and Europe already declined rather generous Trump's offer).

Like, say, this:

Home

The mission of the Fund for Assistance is to support the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, specifically, the moral-spiritual education of youth, aid to its clergy and distribution of emergency relief to its missions.

www.fundforassistance.org

Now you suggest a charity organisation for me to make a donation if you win, and there is a reliable ceasefire in two months.

Seems like a lot of effort.

Of course it's your thing. That's how America was founded and how it behaves in the world.

That's mostly bullshit. The indian "genocides" was mostly just diseases that they were "virgin fields" to. Like over 90% of it was from that, if I recall correctly.

We are not going to gamble with national security and safety of tens of millions Russian men, women and children making guessumptions about Trump's good will (for he didn't prove it yet).

That's fine. You will see. You would be rebuilding your military either way, but you will not need it vs NATO.

Ok. Show us an example. Roll back from Europe, return Mexican lands to Mexicans and then - try to change yourself.

We'll leave Europe when they ask US, or they piss us off too much. Either could happen at any moment.

And **** mexico. THey are assholes.