Partial Birth Abortion Ban

[5stringJeff]

Looks like the House re-passed the partial birth abortion ban. Hopefully the Senate will do likewise. While we may agree or disagree on the issue of abortion, I think it's safe to say that vacuuming the brains out of a half-delivered baby's skull should be illegal.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Looks like the House re-passed the partial birth abortion ban. Hopefully the Senate will do likewise. While we may agree or disagree on the issue of abortion, I think it's safe to say that vacuuming the brains out of a half-delivered baby's skull should be illegal.

Very touchy subject, but I think most will agree with this decision. I'm pro choice for the most part, but you have to have some sort of limitations.

 

[janeeng]

Yeah maybe, but now they make it easy with this abortion pill and recently a very young girl under 18 died from it!

 

[eric]

Funny how the liberals cry about the people who die in war but promote the killing of children. I think we can all agree that once the brain is formed, it is a child. No longer is this a womens choice, at this point it is murder. Plain and simple.

 

[NightTrain]

I agree, Eric.

My personal opinion formed when Misty became pregnant with Ricky back in '96.

We went in for an ultrasound, and the tech was cheerful and bubbly. Then suddenly she got real quiet & I could see she was disturbed... she kept focusing the screen on Ricky's head, but wouldn't answer me when I asked her what was wrong. Then she got up, told us to stay there, and left.

After a few minutes, a doctor came in, and they looked & took pictures of the ultrasound. They flat out wouldn't tell me what was up.

About a week later, they called us back in. The doc sat us down and explained that the baby had some sort of hideous genetic disorder and would be severely retarded, have massive defects, would be in constant agony, etc.. they could tell this by looking at the cysts in the brain. I forget the term for this, but it's flat out scary shit. Neither of us have any relatives that have problems that we know of, and he was puzzled about that. Anyway, the doc said that the best thing to do was abort the pregnancy. I immediately shook my head, and that fucker put his hand up to me and told me I had nothing to say about it! Misty said no, too. He described how it was going to be for him, and it was truly frightening.

Anyway, we agreed we'd come back in for another ultrasound in 3 weeks.

We came back again, and there was another woman doing the ultrasound. She was bubbly & excited to see him moving around, and finally I asked her about the cysts in his brain. She gave me a puzzled look and focused in on the brain - there wasn't anything there! I was dumbfounded. I asked her what happened to the terrible genetic deformation, and she had no idea what I was talking about, so I explained what happened on our last trip in.

She got kinda pissed, and explained that technology is moving so fast these days, they're seeing things that they've never seen before, so they don't know how to interpret what they're seeing! She assured us he was perfectly normal.

Now when I look at Ricky, who is a perfect little boy & my pride and joy, I shudder at what almost happened to him before he ever had a chance to experience life.

I agree completely with Eric.

 

[MtnBiker]

Great story NT, you and your wife are good people. What is really impressive is your attitude that you would take care of your child regardless of his condition and what the doctor tried to suggest. Its great you stood your ground and that all turned out well. BTW a good looking kid.

 

[janeeng]

Yes NT, a truly inspiring story! We both had a lot in common with kids. As I told you, my Daughter should never have been here. I spent 15 days in the hospital at 6 months, begged to go home, had a monitor that had to be done 3 times a day to see if I was having contractions till the day I did - In the hospital again - only this time, no stopping her from coming - from shots every hour of steroids, to trying to stop labor, to high risk level - tons of doctors and nurses, finally a 3 lb. 2oz baby came out! she went through hell and back in Intensive care - needles daily, shots, tests, blood transfusion, you name it! After having her, I can honestly say, how blessed I was with the little bundle who shound't have even been here!

the picture isn't as clear as it should, but you could see what a little pint size she was after she was born and to what she is now!

 

[janeeng]

And my little girl now!

 

[eric]

NT, I have respected you for your opinions. I must say that now my respect has increased 10 Fold. That was a decision that I would wish upon no one. I honestly do not know If I could have handled it. You did what you felt was right and were rewarded for this with a beautiful son. I can tell this is one dad who is proud of his boy.

God bless your family !

 

[eric]

Janeen, I'm sorry I did not see your post when I responded to NT. Your situations were different, but the concept to me is the same. So many people would just give up, but you guys did not. You did not take the easy or safe way out and I can not convey how much I respect you for that. In a world where we find babies in garbage cans and tossed on the side of a road it is encouraging to know there are people out there like you guys.

All I can say is I'm sorry for what you have been through, but the upside is you have been blessed !

God Bless !

 

[janeeng]

Thanks eric!!!

Yes, NT and I both have something in common - both have blessed kids! but then again, I think any child born is blessed.

 

[eric]

Amen !

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Originally posted by eric
Funny how the liberals cry about the people who die in war but promote the killing of children. I think we can all agree that once the brain is formed, it is a child. No longer is this a womens choice, at this point it is murder. Plain and simple.

What if you were raped and impregnated forcefully, what would you do?


This question is hard to answer, and 'adoption' as recommended by the republicans is not really easy to do.

Abortion is Murder , that is true and it should be made illegal. However, the true culprits here are not the people who get an abortion, but the society itself.

Look at our culture, everywhere you look in the media, there is a great extollation of sexuality. We are brainwashed from the young age to think that we have to act and pretend to be something in a way (due to our media) Sex is seen as a great thing to enjoy, when it should be seen as an act responsible for making kids. No wonder 15 and 16 year old kids are getting pregnant, and high schools give out free condoms to teenage boys.

In high school years, the girls are pressurized into doing it by their boyfriends, and the guys are pressurized into doing it by other guys. This is a fact. This should be stopped and the media should be revolutionized.

The whole society around even encourages them to have sex. Pornography and all the other adult related products are available for kids even though it is illegal, and some people even encourage kids to see those things. It is disgusting. our culture basically is a wreck and it is the cause of all these problems. It is time that we recognize this and do something about it in our own lives.

 

[janeeng]

You are right there Spirit! I have wondered the thoughts of rape and abortion, unfortanately, I couldn't answer that, I suppose it would have to be of that persons feelings. You are right about teen sex today - I guess this is an issue of upbringing as well - I would think that if a parent can talk to their kids about this, mabye then a kid would listen, some don't, but not talking to their kids at all doesn't help the situation. You can only hope your child will do the right thing - I know I am surely going to try hard with my Daughter and hope she doesn't make some of the mistake that I have made.

 

[eric]

No spirit, I have to disagree. This is large part of our social problems today. No one wants to take personal responsibility anymore. It is always society's fault. This is idealistic garbage. Does society exert an influence, of course it does. Yet we have an innate sense of right and wrong, which we must follow. If we allow this trend to continue no one will be responsible for anything anymore. My father passed away when I was 4 years old, my mom cleaned people’s homes to make ends meet. I was alone at home many times out of necessity. Also keep in mind I grew up during the 70's when drugs and the like were rampant. I could have easily been in trouble and blamed it on my life situation. I learned very young we control our destiny, not society, and we are responsible for our actions and ourselves.

As far as abortion goes, reread my post carefully. Notice I made a point of saying "Once the brain is formed". We have to draw a line as to when a fetus is a human being. Keeping a religious view out of this debate, I think the brain should be the decisive factor. At this point we think and feel. Now if a women is raped there is no reason she cannot find out before this point and terminate the pregnancy.

After this point the only time I can see an abortion is if the life of the mother is a risk. Here you are trading one life for another and we should not force women into this position.

Other than a situation like this how can you possibly justify murder? Please do not try and tell me that a baby is better off dead than to be put up for adoption. That’s a copout. Better we change our adoption system than kill children

One final thought, I say to you respectfully, I have walked this earth for many more years than you have, and have seen what the loss of personal responsibility has done to our society.

 

[Spirit_Soul]

Quite honestly eric, you are a very extraordinary person if you grew up in such conditions in your childhood and still survived to be a wonderful person. However, not all people are like you.
The fact is that most of the population is not independent of the majority opinion and is a subject to the will of majority, this is a fact.

It is also a fact that today, Cool kids are those in schools who: hate rules, hate school, hate art, hate this, hate that. They are also the ones who bend the rules, who do not follow the rules etc. and this goes to a very far extreme . This is due to the media and this is also a fact.

So, the responsibility of all this falls on the society, the people whose lives are destroyed are actually scape goats to the system.

Also, your seniority is not in question here. I am sure you are more wise than I am and I do agree that abortion is murder, but it is a fact that our society needs abortion in the extreme cases ie : rape, incest etc.

Also, about the issue of changing adoption methods, it is impossible to do so because unlike abortion, there are many people involved in adoption.

 

[eric]

You know spirit in principle I totally agree with you about society being the culprit. This is one reason I turned conservative in my mid 20's. I watched the liberal influences of the 60's and 70' destroy the moral fabric of this country. Here is the problem though; it would be wonderful if we could change society for the better, but I just do not see it. It seems people like us are in short supply. Our culture seems to constantly push the envelope of morality a little further every day. Now I do not want to sound like a prude, but lets face it, society has went overboard on many issues. We have created the monster that now bites us daily.

So what do we do? My feeling is if we do not hold people responsible for their actions, society will further break down. People will start to use this more and more as an excuse for criminal behavior, even when it is not true.

I worked many years in Manhattan; I saw drug dealers on the streets every day, and let me assure you these people want no part of normalcy. Now how should we handle them? Rehabilitation is not going to work. Why should he get a job and make $500 a week, when he makes that in a day. Now if we say its societies fault, not his, he remains on the street peddling his poison. Would it not be better to hold him accountable and put him where he belongs, in prison?

 

[5stringJeff]

Here's the latest on the partial-birth abortion ban. It seems that the radical pro-abortion crowd is unwilling to give an inch in this debate. And the press seems very willing to be one-sided in its reporting, calling the ban "the most far-reaching limits on abortion since the Supreme Court in 1973 confirmed a woman's right to end a pregnancy," even though 1) it is a ban on one procedure that is rarely used, the inventor of which has even said that it is never a medically necessary procedure, and 2) the Supreme Court did not "confirm" the right to abortion, it created it.

-------------------------------
Suit Filed to Block 'Partial-Birth' Bill
By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent

WASHINGTON - In an unusual legal maneuver, two organizations went to court Friday to block legislation banning a procedure that critics call "partial birth" abortions.

President Bush has yet to sign the measure, although he is expected to do so next week. Such a legal challenge, before a bill has become law, is unusual.

"We want the judge to be in a position to issue an order as soon as the bill is signed," said Priscilla Smith, an attorney for the Center for Reproductive Rights.

Smith filed her motion in federal court in Nebraska on behalf of physicians, while the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) sought a similar order in New York.

Congress approved the legislation earlier this month, capping a seven-year political struggle.

The bill imposes the most far-reaching limits on abortion since the Supreme Court in 1973 confirmed a woman's right to end a pregnancy.

The lawsuit filed in Nebraska contends the legislation fails to make an exception in cases where the prohibited abortion might be necessary to protect the health of the mother. In addition, it argues that it would ban safe procedures done commonly before the fetus becomes viable outside the womb, imposing an undue burden on a woman who is seeking to end a pregnancy.

Supporters of the bill contend it applies only to a procedure done late in pregnancy that is never necessary to protect the health of the mother.

The new bill defines partial birth abortion as delivery of a fetus "until, in the case of a headfirst presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of the breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus."

 

[X.P. Alidocious]

Originally posted by Spirit_Soul
What if you were raped and impregnated forcefully, what would you do?


This question is hard to answer, and 'adoption' as recommended by the republicans is not really easy to do.

It seems strange to me that adoption should be harder to
do than killing your own flesh and blood.

It is far too easy to blame society for the crimes of an individual.
But the rapist and the raped grow up in the same society. Why
does one become the victim and the other do the harm? The difference is in individual choice.

People refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions.
They blame every society evil they can think of to keep from
thinking that the evil is in them. We like to think we're
good people, no matter what we do.

But in refusing to accept personal responsibility, we make
the society we place the blame on even worse.

We stop feeling guilty, because we don't think we're to
blame.

Society will become better when the people in it become better.
Until then, our moral fabric will be ripped into smaller and smaller
pieces.

-

I suppose I could have just said I agreed with Eric

 

[DKSuddeth]

heres my take on this ban, coming from a confirmed liberal.

I like this ban. In almost 95% of the incidents where an unwanted pregnancy occurs, if one or both involved can't figure out within the first 3 months whether to keep the child or not then i say too bad. Their indecision forced them into that situation. I'm very much pro-choice, pro choice for life mind you, but pro-choice none the less.