'Palestinian'

[montelatici]

Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Is there a reason why the Jewish people can not go back to their home?

Of course not. Not for either. Let's get on with it.

A Jew is a person that practices Judaism. The home of a Chinese person that practices Judaism is China. The home of an Argentine person that practices Judaism is Argentina. The home of an Irish-American whether he practices Judaism or Catholicism is the United States, not Ireland. What is so difficult to understand.

 

[montelatici]

No, you are the one turning logic on its head by insisting that being Jewish is only a religion and not a full culture. Its a silly argument which defies any reasonable or objective definition of culture or ethnicity. This is especially true when contrasted with the definition used to determine whether or not someone is culturally "Palestinian".

Jewish is just a religion. A Jew who converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew. Just as a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

 

[rylah]

No, you are the one turning logic on its head by insisting that being Jewish is only a religion and not a full culture. Its a silly argument which defies any reasonable or objective definition of culture or ethnicity. This is especially true when contrasted with the definition used to determine whether or not someone is culturally "Palestinian".

Jewish is just a religion. A Jew who converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew. Just as a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

'Jewish' doesn't exist separately in the Hebrew language - from Jew or Judean.

It's all one word 'יהודי'


You should not tell lies about people and their identity, if You don't know basic things.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Is there a reason why the Jewish people can not go back to their home?

Of course not. Not for either. Let's get on with it.

If there is any evidence that those Europeans have any ancestors from the holy land I would like to see it.

You can't "go back" to someplace you have never been

 

[rylah]

Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Is there a reason why the Jewish people can not go back to their home?

Of course not. Not for either. Let's get on with it.

If there is any evidence that those Europeans have any ancestors from the holy land I would like to see it.

You can't "go back" to someplace you have never been

Is this some kind of blood purity test? Seriously. There's plenty. But seriously?

Why not let Jews decide for themselves?

 

[montelatici]

No, you are the one turning logic on its head by insisting that being Jewish is only a religion and not a full culture. Its a silly argument which defies any reasonable or objective definition of culture or ethnicity. This is especially true when contrasted with the definition used to determine whether or not someone is culturally "Palestinian".

Jewish is just a religion. A Jew who converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew. Just as a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

'Jewish' doesn't exist separately in the Hebrew language - from Jew or Judean.

It's all one word 'יהודי'


You should not tell lies about people and their identity, if You don't know basic things.

So an Inuit that converts to Judaism becomes a Jew, right. What if he/she reconverts to Christianity, is he/she still a Jew. You know the answer, and proves you are full of crap.

 

[rylah]

No, you are the one turning logic on its head by insisting that being Jewish is only a religion and not a full culture. Its a silly argument which defies any reasonable or objective definition of culture or ethnicity. This is especially true when contrasted with the definition used to determine whether or not someone is culturally "Palestinian".

Jewish is just a religion. A Jew who converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew. Just as a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

'Jewish' doesn't exist separately in the Hebrew language - from Jew or Judean.

It's all one word 'יהודי'


You should not tell lies about people and their identity, if You don't know basic things.

So an Inuit that converts to Judaism becomes a Jew, right. What if he/she reconverts to Christianity, is he/she still a Jew. You know the answer, and proves you are full of crap.

From theological perspective too - he's a Jew. He circumcised and accepted 613 laws.
But how much generations will this family keep this baggage depends on their identity.

 

[montelatici]

Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Is there a reason why the Jewish people can not go back to their home?

Of course not. Not for either. Let's get on with it.

If there is any evidence that those Europeans have any ancestors from the holy land I would like to see it.

You can't "go back" to someplace you have never been

Is this some kind of blood purity test? Seriously. There's plenty. But seriously?

Why not let Jews decide for themselves?

No, you are the one turning logic on its head by insisting that being Jewish is only a religion and not a full culture. Its a silly argument which defies any reasonable or objective definition of culture or ethnicity. This is especially true when contrasted with the definition used to determine whether or not someone is culturally "Palestinian".

Jewish is just a religion. A Jew who converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew. Just as a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.

'Jewish' doesn't exist separately in the Hebrew language - from Jew or Judean.

It's all one word 'יהודי'


You should not tell lies about people and their identity, if You don't know basic things.

So an Inuit that converts to Judaism becomes a Jew, right. What if he/she reconverts to Christianity, is he/she still a Jew. You know the answer, and proves you are full of crap.

From theological perspective too - he's a Jew. He circumcised and accepted 613 laws.
But how much generations will this family keep this baggage depends on their identity.

An Inuit Jew is a Jew because he/she practices Judaism. Once he converts to Christianity or another religion he/she ceases to be a Jew. Hence, it's the religion not anything else.

 

[rylah]

That baggage means circumcision of all males, and retaining heritage.
A big part of retaining heritage was by studying the Torah. Jews from Yemen to Poland studied from the same books. There's a difference in 1 letter. But it doesn't mean a person has to be religious or something.
Ben Gurion studied in a heider, as other Jews in Babylon or Yemen.
You study heritage, Torah, Mishna, Talmud. You study LAWS and CONVERSATIONS between Jewish sages.

The grand grand nanny of King David, Ruth , was a Moabite. Israelites were not allowed to mix with Moabites, but her seed are righteous Jews.

 

[montelatici]

That baggage means circumcision of all males, and retaining heritage.
A big part of retaining heritage was by studying the Torah. Jews from Yemen to Poland studied from the same books. There's a difference in 1 letter. But it doesn't mean a person has to be religious or something.
Ben Gurion studied in a heider, as other Jews in Babylon or Yemen.
You study heritage, Torah, Mishna, Talmud. You study LAWS and CONVERSATIONS between Jewish sages.

The grand grand nanny of King David, Ruth , was a Moabite. Israelites were not allowed to mix with Moabites, but her seed are righteous Jews.

Stop the mumbo jumbo. When a Jew converts to Roman Catholicism, he/she ceases to be a Jew. He/she becomes a Roman Catholic. It's the religion that is the determining factor.

Of course we have our own process to become a Roman Catholic. It's not a simple process.

"The first formal step to Catholicism begins with the rite of reception into the order of catechumens, in which the unbaptized express their desire and intention to become Christians. "Catechumen" is a term the early Christians used to refer to those preparing to be baptized and become Christians.

The period of the catechumenate varies depending on how much the catechumen has learned and how ready he feels to take the step of becoming a Christian. However, the catechumenate often lasts less than a year.

The catechumenate’s purpose is to provide the catechumens with a thorough background in Christian teaching. "A thoroughly comprehensive catechesis on the truths of Catholic doctrine and moral life, aided by approved catechetical texts, is to be provided during the period of the catechumenate" (U.S. Conference of Bishops, National Statutes for the Catechumenate, Nov. 11, 1986). The catechumenate also is intended to give the catechumens the opportunity to reflect upon and become firm in their desire to become Catholic, and to show that they are ready to take this serious and joyful step (cf. Luke 14:27–33; 2 Pet. 2:20–22).

The second formal step is taken with the rite of election, in which the catechumens’ names are written in a book of those who will receive the sacraments of initiation. At the rite of election, the catechumen again expresses the desire and intention to become a Christian, and the Church judges that the catechumen is ready to take this step. Normally, the rite of election occurs on the first Sunday of Lent, the forty-day period of preparation for Easter.

After the rite of election, the candidates undergo a period of more intense reflection, purification, and enlightenment, in which they deepen their commitment to repentance and conversion. During this period the catechumens, now known as the elect, participate in several further rituals.

The three chief rituals, known as scrutinies, are normally celebrated at Mass on the third, fourth, and fifth Sundays of Lent. The scrutinies are rites for self-searching and repentance. They are meant to bring out the qualities of the catechumen’s soul, to heal those qualities which are weak or sinful, and to strengthen those that are positive and good.

During this period, the catechumens are formally presented with the Apostles’ Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, which they will recite on the night they are initiated.

The initiation itself usually occurs on the Easter Vigil, the evening before Easter Day. That evening a special Mass is celebrated at which the catechumens are baptized, then given confirmation, and finally receive the holy Eucharist. At this point the catechumens become Catholics and are received into full communion with the Church.

Ideally the bishop oversees the Easter Vigil service and confers confirmation upon the catechumens, but often—due to large distances or numbers of catechumens—a local parish priest will perform the rites.

The final state of Christian initiation is known as mystagogy, in which the new Christians are strengthened in the faith by further instruction and become more deeply rooted in the local Catholic community. The period of mystagogy normally lasts throughout the Easter season (the fifty days between Easter and Pentecost Sunday)."

 

[P F Tinmore]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Well You chose an easy case - 2 angry Arab anti-Zionists.
Are there reasons to give the son of Hassan Nasrallah a house in Jerusalem his grandfather owned?

But that of course was an exaggeration.

I'd do a thorough background investigation, check for possible solutions, and some kind of documented 'pledge of allegiance' where they Identify as Israelis, accept and recognize the sovereignty and right's of the indigenous people in that land, and swear not to participate in actions against the nation.

Your usual deflection.

 

[rylah]

That baggage means circumcision of all males, and retaining heritage.
A big part of retaining heritage was by studying the Torah. Jews from Yemen to Poland studied from the same books. There's a difference in 1 letter. But it doesn't mean a person has to be religious or something.
Ben Gurion studied in a heider, as other Jews in Babylon or Yemen.
You study heritage, Torah, Mishna, Talmud. You study LAWS and CONVERSATIONS between Jewish sages.

The grand grand nanny of King David, Ruth , was a Moabite. Israelites were not allowed to mix with Moabites, but her seed are righteous Jews.

Stop the mumbo jumbo. When a Jew converts to Roman Catholicism, he/she ceases to be a Jew. He/she becomes a Roman Catholic. It's the religion that is the determining factor.

Of course we have our own process to become a Roman Catholic. It's not a simple process.

"The first formal step to Catholicism begins with the rite of reception into the order of catechumens, in which the unbaptized express their desire and intention to become Christians. "Catechumen" is a term the early Christians used to refer to those preparing to be baptized and become Christians.

The period of the catechumenate varies depending on how much the catechumen has learned and how ready he feels to take the step of becoming a Christian. However, the catechumenate often lasts less than a year.

The catechumenate’s purpose is to provide the catechumens with a thorough background in Christian teaching. "A thoroughly comprehensive catechesis on the truths of Catholic doctrine and moral life, aided by approved catechetical texts, is to be provided during the period of the catechumenate" (U.S. Conference of Bishops, National Statutes for the Catechumenate, Nov. 11, 1986). The catechumenate also is intended to give the catechumens the opportunity to reflect upon and become firm in their desire to become Catholic, and to show that they are ready to take this serious and joyful step (cf. Luke 14:27–33; 2 Pet. 2:20–22).

The second formal step is taken with the rite of election, in which the catechumens’ names are written in a book of those who will receive the sacraments of initiation. At the rite of election, the catechumen again expresses the desire and intention to become a Christian, and the Church judges that the catechumen is ready to take this step. Normally, the rite of election occurs on the first Sunday of Lent, the forty-day period of preparation for Easter.

After the rite of election, the candidates undergo a period of more intense reflection, purification, and enlightenment, in which they deepen their commitment to repentance and conversion. During this period the catechumens, now known as the elect, participate in several further rituals.

The three chief rituals, known as scrutinies, are normally celebrated at Mass on the third, fourth, and fifth Sundays of Lent. The scrutinies are rites for self-searching and repentance. They are meant to bring out the qualities of the catechumen’s soul, to heal those qualities which are weak or sinful, and to strengthen those that are positive and good.

During this period, the catechumens are formally presented with the Apostles’ Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, which they will recite on the night they are initiated.

The initiation itself usually occurs on the Easter Vigil, the evening before Easter Day. That evening a special Mass is celebrated at which the catechumens are baptized, then given confirmation, and finally receive the holy Eucharist. At this point the catechumens become Catholics and are received into full communion with the Church.

Ideally the bishop oversees the Easter Vigil service and confers confirmation upon the catechumens, but often—due to large distances or numbers of catechumens—a local parish priest will perform the rites.

The final state of Christian initiation is known as mystagogy, in which the new Christians are strengthened in the faith by further instruction and become more deeply rooted in the local Catholic community. The period of mystagogy normally lasts throughout the Easter season (the fifty days between Easter and Pentecost Sunday)."

That's Your MAIN symptom of any argument - You project Christianity on Jews. There's no Christian nation. There's a Jewish nation.

 

[rylah]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Well You chose an easy case - 2 angry Arab anti-Zionists.
Are there reasons to give the son of Hassan Nasrallah a house in Jerusalem his grandfather owned?

But that of course was an exaggeration.

I'd do a thorough background investigation, check for possible solutions, and some kind of documented 'pledge of allegiance' where they Identify as Israelis, accept and recognize the sovereignty and right's of the indigenous people in that land, and swear not to participate in actions against the nation.

Your usual deflection.

I gave You all the reasons. Indigenous people have a right of self determination and a right to protect themselves from Arab Muslim colonialism.

You keep dancing around it. Doesn't look smart, kinda like a parrot.

 

[P F Tinmore]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Well You chose an easy case - 2 angry Arab anti-Zionists.
Are there reasons to give the son of Hassan Nasrallah a house in Jerusalem his grandfather owned?

But that of course was an exaggeration.

I'd do a thorough background investigation, check for possible solutions, and some kind of documented 'pledge of allegiance' where they Identify as Israelis, accept and recognize the sovereignty and right's of the indigenous people in that land, and swear not to participate in actions against the nation.

Your usual deflection.

I gave You all the reasons. Indigenous people have a right of self determination and a right to protect themselves from Arab Muslim colonialism.

You keep dancing around it. Doesn't look smart, kinda like a parrot.

By indigenous people do you mean those Europeans who have no ancestors from the holy land?

 

[rylah]

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Well You chose an easy case - 2 angry Arab anti-Zionists.
Are there reasons to give the son of Hassan Nasrallah a house in Jerusalem his grandfather owned?

But that of course was an exaggeration.

I'd do a thorough background investigation, check for possible solutions, and some kind of documented 'pledge of allegiance' where they Identify as Israelis, accept and recognize the sovereignty and right's of the indigenous people in that land, and swear not to participate in actions against the nation.

Your usual deflection.

I gave You all the reasons. Indigenous people have a right of self determination and a right to protect themselves from Arab Muslim colonialism.

You keep dancing around it. Doesn't look smart, kinda like a parrot.

By indigenous people do you mean those Europeans who have no ancestors from the holy land?

Oh let's first go through the 1st round where You and Montelatici tryto prove that.
This exactly proves my point - 'Palestinian' is Arab Muslim colonialism.
I'm glad that we clear that out.

Let's discuss BLOOD PURITY OF JEWS in the thread about the definition of 'Palestinian'

 

[rylah]

And then You go teach me about RIGHTS and LAWS

 

[Shusha]

Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Is there a reason why the Jewish people can not go back to their home?

Of course not. Not for either. Let's get on with it.

If there is any evidence that those Europeans have any ancestors from the holy land I would like to see it.

You can't "go back" to someplace you have never been

By any definition of culture or ethnicity the Jewish people came from Israel, Judea and Samaria. What the hell definition are you using that they don't?

You know, like Chinese people come from China. And you know this because they are culturally Chinese.

 

[Eloy]

Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Is there a reason why the Jewish people can not go back to their home?

Of course not. Not for either. Let's get on with it.

If there is any evidence that those Europeans have any ancestors from the holy land I would like to see it.

You can't "go back" to someplace you have never been

By any definition of culture or ethnicity the Jewish people came from Israel, Judea and Samaria. What the hell definition are you using that they don't?

You know, like Chinese people come from China. And you know this because they are culturally Chinese.

Chinese refers to a culture and ethnicity. Jewish doesn't. Until the last century the Jews were part of the European and American culture, speaking European languages and fully part of European political and cultural life. They did not speak Hebrew but German, French, English, etc. Some impoverished Jews in the Polish shtetls spoke a mixture of Polish and German known as Yiddish. Some others were settled in North African and the Middle Eastern regions and speaking local languages. Judaism is a religion, not a culture or an ethnicity.

 

[Shusha]

Chinese refers to a culture and ethnicity. Jewish doesn't.

Really? How do you define "culture and ethnicity" in an objective way which includes Chinese and Palestinian but excludes Jewish.

I have challenged people on this board over and over again with this simple question. No one has ever answered me. Wanna give it a try?


Simple test. Define "culture and ethnicity".

 

[Eloy]

Chinese refers to a culture and ethnicity. Jewish doesn't.

Really? How do you define "culture and ethnicity" in an objective way which includes Chinese and Palestinian but excludes Jewish.

I have challenged people on this board over and over again with this simple question. No one has ever answered me. Wanna give it a try?


Simple test. Define "culture and ethnicity".

It is simple. Culture as in German culture. The culture of German Jewish homes and families in Munich in 1930 were indistinguishable from Catholic ones. They read the same newspapers, spoke German, entered the same professions, played the same sports, joined the same army, ate sausages, drank beer, and greeted their colleagues and children in the schools with "Guten Morgen." Ethnicity? They were white.
As if you did not know this.