'Palestinian'

[rylah]

Even cave men probably trekked in from someplace else.
Palestine has been invaded, occupied, and conquered many times. It was the crossroad of the world for... well...forever. Many people came and went for thousands of years.

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots. They built the cities, factories and homes. They planted the trees and picked the fruit. They worked the farms. Most have been there for hundreds of years if not more.

I don't see where anyone can claim the right to take that away from them.

How about indigenous right to self-determination, right to be free of discrimination, right to self defense, right to safeguard the heritage and culture?

All these rights are impossible under Arab Muslim colonialism.
Ask the Kurds, Yazidis and many other indigenous people subjugated under the Arab Muslim colonialism.
You say You're against colonialism, but actually You're all for it and for the continuation of discrimination.

However I appreciate Your honesty about the identity of 'Palestinian'

That does not address my post.

I don't see where anyone can claim the right to take that away from them.

Don't You see the hypocrisy in Your statement?
You're justifying a brutal colonialism that eradicates indigenous people, while saying rights cannot be taken from people.

So, where have these eradicated indigenous people file a legitimate claim?

Do You have any legitimate claim to eradicate indigenous people?

Of course not. But You simply don't know what 'indigenous' means.
And I'm not saying Arabs don't have a right to live in the land.

But 'Palestinian' is by definition NOT indigenous. They have longstanding occupation, and yet it's not enough to be defined as indigenous. They have to present ANY connection to this land beside colonization. They don't - they still identify as Arab Syrians or members of Arabian and N. African tribes.

 

[louie888]

Sure, no people are indigenous anywhere unless you say so.

 

[Hollie]

Sure, no people are indigenous anywhere unless you say so.

At what point did the muhammedan invaders / colonists become the indigenous people?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Sure, no people are indigenous anywhere unless you say so.

At what point did the muhammedan invaders / colonists become the indigenous people?

1967. Or so they say.

 

[Hollie]

Sure, no people are indigenous anywhere unless you say so.

At what point did the muhammedan invaders / colonists become the indigenous people?

1967. Or so they say.

Yep. An Egyptian managed to convince Arabs-Moslems that an invented people with an invented national identity were "Pal'istanians".

 

[Shusha]

I don't see where anyone can claim the right to take that away from them.

Exactly. Exactly.

No one has the right to take away the land from either the Arab Palestinian people nor from the Jewish people. The Arab Palestinian people, because they are very long-term residents and the Jewish people because they are the indigenous peoples.

Its that simple.

 

[Shusha]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

Yes, Tinmore, it really is time for you to get over this thing already.

 

[Shusha]

Adding to my post above. There actually IS one way to tell if people belong in that core group: do they have the cultural markers of the pre-invasion, pre-colonized peoples?

 

[montelatici]

Adding to my post above. There actually IS one way to tell if people belong in that core group: do they have the cultural markers of the pre-invasion, pre-colonized peoples?

Certainly that would exclude people that were culturally European insofar as a culture in the Middle East is concerned.

But, it's a silly concept to be used as a basis after thousands ot years, as it would give Romanians, for example, a claim to Rome and Italy as their ancestral homeland and the right to settle there. They could claim that Romanian is the closest to Latin because of the retention of declension in their grammar so they are the cultural heirs of Rome.

 

[Shusha]

Adding to my post above. There actually IS one way to tell if people belong in that core group: do they have the cultural markers of the pre-invasion, pre-colonized peoples?

Certainly that would exclude people that were culturally European insofar as a culture in the Middle East is concerned.

Not if they also had the cultural markers of the pre-invasion, pre-colonized people (ie were culturally Jewish).

Again, it doesn't matter what they have adopted. It matters what they have retained.

 

[montelatici]

Adding to my post above. There actually IS one way to tell if people belong in that core group: do they have the cultural markers of the pre-invasion, pre-colonized peoples?

Certainly that would exclude people that were culturally European insofar as a culture in the Middle East is concerned.

Not if they also had the cultural markers of the pre-invasion, pre-colonized people (ie were culturally Jewish).

Again, it doesn't matter what they have adopted. It matters what they have retained.

No, Europeans that converted to Judaism do not become indigenous to a place on another continent. That's just ridiculous. A black Nigerian, who may even have some Englishman/woman as an ancestor, that converts to the Church of England does not become indigenous to England. You are so intent on sustaining a myth that you are turning logic upside down.

 

[Shusha]

No, you are the one turning logic on its head by insisting that being Jewish is only a religion and not a full culture. Its a silly argument which defies any reasonable or objective definition of culture or ethnicity. This is especially true when contrasted with the definition used to determine whether or not someone is culturally "Palestinian".

 

[Shusha]

I challenge anyone to give me a definition of "culture" and we'll test the Jewish people and the Palestinian people against your definition.

 

[P F Tinmore]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

OK, so that's 2 ppl. Who knows where all the others came from. And even they don't go back all the way to the Canaanites. Lipush's family goes back to the early 1800's. Is that Ali guy Jewish? Many Sephardic Jews came to Israel from Spain in 1492.

 

[Shusha]

Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Is there a reason why the Jewish people can not go back to their home?

Of course not. Not for either. Let's get on with it.

 

[Shusha]

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

The Susan Abulhawa who was born in Kuwait? The Susan Abulhawa who tweets, with no apparent irony at all, "How many times must we become refugees?"

 

[Hollie]

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

The Susan Abulhawa who was born in Kuwait? The Susan Abulhawa who tweets, with no apparent irony at all, "How many times must we become refugees?"

Yep. That Susan Albulhawa. The Susan Abulhawa who lives in the Great Satan™ where she is protected from the very Islamic Death Cultists she so admires.

 

[rylah]

However, there is a core group of people who stayed and put down roots.

There are two problems with this.

1. There is no way to determine who is in that "core group" and whose families have been there for thousands of years. And where do you cut it off? A hundred years of being part of that core group? Five hundred? A thousand? Four thousand?

2. What if people would have been in that core group but were forcibly removed from the place?


The whole argument is silly. Both peoples have rights. Both peoples should be entitled to those rights. Get on with it.

There are many ways to trace people's history. Turkey has records. Britain has records. The UN has records. There are municipal and village records. Family trees. Churches, etc. record membership including marriages, births, and deaths.

For example: Susan Abulhawa can trace her family in Palestine back 900 years. Ali Abunimah traces his family back to 1492 when they move to Palestine from Spain. Is there any reason why these people cannot go back to their homes?

Well You chose an easy case - 2 angry Arab anti-Zionists.
Are there reasons to give the son of Hassan Nasrallah a house in Jerusalem his grandfather owned?

But that of course was an exaggeration.

I'd do a thorough background investigation, check for possible solutions, and some kind of documented 'pledge of allegiance' where they Identify as Israelis, accept and recognize the sovereignty and right's of the indigenous people in that land, and swear not to participate in actions against the nation.