Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims

[Roudy]

You discount and distort reality. Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made. There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?

He used to be quite the playboy in Beirut, back in the day.

When he began making a name for himself it came as quite a surprise to realize who they were actually talking about.

According to many, the 9-11 hijackers weren't Muslims because the night before they went to a strip joint. LOL

 

[High_Gravity]

You know whats sad? compared to modern Islamists he is considered a moderate now SMFH

Yup. Compared to the savagery we see today, the Shia's seem moderate. Yet many forget that the Islamic republic had armies of little children taken by force from their parents, with plastic "keys to heaven" necklaces, they would make them walk through minefields in order to clear the path for tanks, in the Iran / Iraq war. In their prisons, the clerics and guards would rape female political prisoners before their execution because non virgins won't go to heaven in Islam. So it's not that the Shia's are less savage, at that time we didn't have youtube, and people have forgotten.

You are right, the human waves. I remember reading about that, Khomeini was willing to sacrifice so many of his own people I don't see how he was so revered, maybe thats just something I won't understand.

 

[High_Gravity]

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?

He used to be quite the playboy in Beirut, back in the day.

When he began making a name for himself it came as quite a surprise to realize who they were actually talking about.

According to many, the 9-11 hijackers weren't Muslims because the night before they went to a strip joint. LOL

and drank beer.

 

[aris2chat]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

don't ask about where he grew up or go digging into his past. This for some is personal information. When I left it took decades before I spoke about my past to anyone. I still won't disclose information about my family, expect perhaps small hints or passing references. Any more details could endanger my relatives.
It does not matter what country or where. Either you accept or don't. It is not your place to ask any more information about him or his past. As big as the middle east is, it a relatively small world when it come to knowledge of families or where people come from. It is far from being as disconnected as in the west.

His personal experience has been proven in his knowledge and understanding. If you want to try to dispute something, leave his past and personal information out of it.

If he is going to attempt to use personal information to claim authority then I have every right to ask about it or to dismiss said claim to authority. He is the one who brought it up not me. Once again, take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.

No, it is personal information. Not your business, not to be spread on the forum. I've had experience where someone put the fragments of who I know, what I had don't and manage to realize who I was. They made threats and are went to jail. Any good forum moderator would warn people not to disclose personal information and never to ask for information about others or use information about others on the forum.

Where he grew up is not your business. There are enough other details in his knowledge to prove he is no stranger off the street killing time. Take it or leave it, but stop asking.

 

[Osomir]

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?

But he was not a formal Sunni scholar. He lacked the religious credentials for example to issue a formal fatwa (this didn't stop him from issuing his own brand of them, but still). Once again, this is basic stuff.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

He didn't bring anything new, he brought traditional pure Islam, according to his own words, a leading Shia cleric. If you think he's not qualified to know about it, I suggest you review his credentials.

I disagree, and I once again if you are so confident about this then I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new sub-forum on this topic. Do you accept or are you going to dodge this one too?

I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. I just find it hilarious that you claim to know more about Islam than Ayatollah Khomeini, aka THE GRAND AYATOLLAH of Iran, or Baghdadi, the Sunni cleric ISIS leader. You are basically engaging in deception and fraud. These people are Muslims, they claim they are doing what they are doing in the name of Islam, they label themselves as ISLAMIC STATE, and other Muslims are flocking to them for exactly the same reason. What's the confusion here to formally discuss?

I'll take that as a no, which is what I thought Once again, let me know if you change your mind; I'm always open to detailed and sourced discussion.

 

[Roudy]

You discount and distort reality. Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made. There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.

1- They behave the same way with minor differences. They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top.

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad.. Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics with formal Islamic training.

 

[Osomir]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

don't ask about where he grew up or go digging into his past. This for some is personal information. When I left it took decades before I spoke about my past to anyone. I still won't disclose information about my family, expect perhaps small hints or passing references. Any more details could endanger my relatives.
It does not matter what country or where. Either you accept or don't. It is not your place to ask any more information about him or his past. As big as the middle east is, it a relatively small world when it come to knowledge of families or where people come from. It is far from being as disconnected as in the west.

His personal experience has been proven in his knowledge and understanding. If you want to try to dispute something, leave his past and personal information out of it.

If he is going to attempt to use personal information to claim authority then I have every right to ask about it or to dismiss said claim to authority. He is the one who brought it up not me. Once again, take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.

No, it is personal information. Not your business, not to be spread on the forum. I've had experience where someone put the fragments of who I know, what I had don't and manage to realize who I was. They made threats and are went to jail. Any good forum moderator would warn people not to disclose personal information and never to ask for information about others or use information about others on the forum.

Where he grew up is not your business. There are enough other details in his knowledge to prove he is no stranger off the street killing time. Take it or leave it, but stop asking.

If it was THAT big of a deal then

1.) He wouldn't reference it again and again and use it as a claim to authority
2.) the Forum wouldn't have a built in location setting based on country as part of the standard profile package.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Osomir]

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.

1- They behave the same way with minor differences. They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top.

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad.. Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics formal Islamic training.

1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.

 

[Roudy]

You know whats sad? compared to modern Islamists he is considered a moderate now SMFH

Yup. Compared to the savagery we see today, the Shia's seem moderate. Yet many forget that the Islamic republic had armies of little children taken by force from their parents, with plastic "keys to heaven" necklaces, they would make them walk through minefields in order to clear the path for tanks, in the Iran / Iraq war. In their prisons, the clerics and guards would rape female political prisoners before their execution because non virgins won't go to heaven in Islam. So it's not that the Shia's are less savage, at that time we didn't have youtube, and people have forgotten.

You are right, the human waves. I remember reading about that, Khomeini was willing to sacrifice so many of his own people I don't see how he was so revered, maybe thats just something I won't understand.

in the beginning, Khomieni executed anybody he could get his hands on, that had anything to do with the previous regime or said anything against the regime. His regime has probably killed at least a few hundred thousand Iranians.

 

[Roudy]

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.

1- They behave the same way with minor differences. They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top.

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad.. Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics formal Islamic training.

1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.

And yet there are formal scholars across the Muslim world that support these Islamic terrorist organizations. You're just bringing up those that disagree.

Islamic Scholar Pledges Allegiance to ISIS Emir Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Live on Al-Jazeera TV

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

 

[Osomir]

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.

1- They behave the same way with minor differences. They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top.

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad.. Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics formal Islamic training.

1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.

And yet there are formal scholars across the Muslim world that support these Islamic terrorist organizations. You're just bringing up those that disagree.

Islamic Scholar Pledges Allegiance to ISIS Emir Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Live on Al-Jazeera TV

Like I said, I'd be happy to have a formal debate with you about it given your level of confidence in the subject matter. Let me know when you are sure enough in your knowledge to partake.

 

[Roudy]

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.

1- They behave the same way with minor differences. They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top.

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad.. Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics formal Islamic training.

1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.

And yet there are formal scholars across the Muslim world that support these Islamic terrorist organizations. You're just bringing up those that disagree.

Islamic Scholar Pledges Allegiance to ISIS Emir Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Live on Al-Jazeera TV

Like I said, I'd be happy to have a formal debate with you about it given your level of confidence in the subject matter. Let me know when you are sure enough in your knowledge to partake.

I thought that is what we were doing here. You're just upset that your propaganda has fallen flat.

Like I said, claiming that these groups and their actions "have nothing to do with Islam" is a blatant lie, deceiving the ignorant.

 

[Osomir]

1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.

1- They behave the same way with minor differences. They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top.

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad.. Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics formal Islamic training.

1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.

And yet there are formal scholars across the Muslim world that support these Islamic terrorist organizations. You're just bringing up those that disagree.

Islamic Scholar Pledges Allegiance to ISIS Emir Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Live on Al-Jazeera TV

Like I said, I'd be happy to have a formal debate with you about it given your level of confidence in the subject matter. Let me know when you are sure enough in your knowledge to partake.

I thought that is what we were doing here. You're just upset that your propaganda has fallen flat.

Like I said, claiming that these groups and their actions "have nothing to do with Islam" is a blatant lie, deceiving the ignorant.

No, it isn't. You aren't willing to really hold such discussions because it forces you to address specific points and provide a base level of support for your arguments that you usually try to avoid through personal attacks, ignoring the material in question or through simply abandoning the Thread. These "risks" limit the amount of time one is willing to spend crafting an individual post / reply. I've run into this problem with you on multiple occasions before. Thus I have little incentive to spend 30 minutes writing a detailed post if you are simply going to respond with an insult and then ignore the bulk of its content. You wouldn't have that option in a more structured thread and thus would free others up to talk more about the specific issues. If you can't talk about these subjects without that safety blanket I understand, I just thought I'd give you the option of putting your proverbial money where your mouth is in order to gauge the strength of your conviction and how comfortable you really are with the material.

 

[aris2chat]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

You criticized Roudy for not telling you where he grew up. Why is that important to you? Are you an internet stalker ?

I criticized him for it simply because he keeps attempting to utilize it as an appeal to authority. Notice how I have never asked any of you for such information. If he told me he drew his experience from books I would likewise ask him what the titles of the books were. It's the same thing. If he wants to use it as an appeal to authority then it shouldn't be surprising for someone to inquire about more details concerning said authority; there is after all a huge difference between growing up in Indonesia or Albania, or Senegal, or Saudi Arabia. Saying he "grew up in a Muslim country" doesn't really tell me anything useful as far as his experience goes, especially in the face of his historically demonstrated weakness in the area of religious and historical basics within Islam.

I also find you guys trying to rush to his defense somewhat amusing given his proclivity for and widespread use of personal attacks on other posters.

I've seen how a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous. You can dismiss what he says or accept it. You do not need to know any more to somehow defame him, endanger him or attack him.

He might give you details of what stores were on the street, what the building looked like and who was next door. Details the average person would not have access to. You do not have the right to ask for more.

Personal details are just that, personal.

 

[Roudy]

1- They behave the same way with minor differences. They are Islamist supremacist organizations jostling for which of them will come out on top.

2- You don't need to have "formal Islamic training" in order to be a devout Muslim with a valid opinion or in order to wage jihad.. Plus, some of them like ISIS do have clerics formal Islamic training.

1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.

And yet there are formal scholars across the Muslim world that support these Islamic terrorist organizations. You're just bringing up those that disagree.

Islamic Scholar Pledges Allegiance to ISIS Emir Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Live on Al-Jazeera TV

Like I said, I'd be happy to have a formal debate with you about it given your level of confidence in the subject matter. Let me know when you are sure enough in your knowledge to partake.

I thought that is what we were doing here. You're just upset that your propaganda has fallen flat.

Like I said, claiming that these groups and their actions "have nothing to do with Islam" is a blatant lie, deceiving the ignorant.

No, it isn't. You aren't willing to really hold such discussions because it forces you to address specific points and provide a base level of support for your arguments that you usually try to avoid through personal attacks, ignoring the material in question or through simply abandoning the Thread. These "risks" limit the amount of time one is willing to spend crafting an individual post / reply. I've run into this problem with you on multiple occasions before. Thus I have little incentive to spend 30 minutes writing a detailed post if you are simply going to respond with an insult and then ignore the bulk of its content. You wouldn't have that option in a more structured thread and thus would free others up to talk more about the specific issues. If you can't talk about these subjects without that safety blanket I understand, I just thought I'd give you the option of putting your proverbial money where your mouth is in order to gauge the strength of your conviction and how comfortable you really are with the material.

Again, you, a non Muslim, keep claiming to know more about Islam than all these devout Muslims, their leaders, and their followers, born and bred in religious Islamic families, like Bin Laden and Al Bagdady. I am very secular, not a Muslim nor am I born and bred in a religious family. Just someone who has experienced Islam on a personal level and seen it's effects. And I'll take that over all the bullshit and double talk coming from you.

 

[aris2chat]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

don't ask about where he grew up or go digging into his past. This for some is personal information. When I left it took decades before I spoke about my past to anyone. I still won't disclose information about my family, expect perhaps small hints or passing references. Any more details could endanger my relatives.
It does not matter what country or where. Either you accept or don't. It is not your place to ask any more information about him or his past. As big as the middle east is, it a relatively small world when it come to knowledge of families or where people come from. It is far from being as disconnected as in the west.

His personal experience has been proven in his knowledge and understanding. If you want to try to dispute something, leave his past and personal information out of it.

If he is going to attempt to use personal information to claim authority then I have every right to ask about it or to dismiss said claim to authority. He is the one who brought it up not me. Once again, take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.

No, it is personal information. Not your business, not to be spread on the forum. I've had experience where someone put the fragments of who I know, what I had don't and manage to realize who I was. They made threats and are went to jail. Any good forum moderator would warn people not to disclose personal information and never to ask for information about others or use information about others on the forum.

Where he grew up is not your business. There are enough other details in his knowledge to prove he is no stranger off the street killing time. Take it or leave it, but stop asking.

If it was THAT big of a deal then

1.) He wouldn't reference it again and again and use it as a claim to authority
2.) the Forum wouldn't have a built in location setting based on country as part of the standard profile package.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Some people know a bit of his past but it is not fodder for the forum. Those people know what Roudy is talking about and can place it into context. Sorry if you are not among those people but it is Roudy's to give in tiny grains at a time or not at all.
There are members who have know each other for decades and gone from forum to forum, egroup, news groups, usenet, private chat rooms, message boards and such. If you are not among the trusted in someone's contact list, oh well too bad. Maybe you have to be a friend to make a friend.
I have people I share jokes and snide comments with that I would not share on a open forum. I have friends that have a sense of humor that not to my taste but that I consider friends for other reason. I have friends that I don't agree with politically or on some moral issues. We have friends for many reason.
Why should Roudy trust you to be a friend? Why should he give you any more personal information to prove anything to you? So you can throw it back in his face at some later time?

Stop whining. Get over it. Move on.

 

[Roudy]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

You criticized Roudy for not telling you where he grew up. Why is that important to you? Are you an internet stalker ?

I criticized him for it simply because he keeps attempting to utilize it as an appeal to authority. Notice how I have never asked any of you for such information. If he told me he drew his experience from books I would likewise ask him what the titles of the books were. It's the same thing. If he wants to use it as an appeal to authority then it shouldn't be surprising for someone to inquire about more details concerning said authority; there is after all a huge difference between growing up in Indonesia or Albania, or Senegal, or Saudi Arabia. Saying he "grew up in a Muslim country" doesn't really tell me anything useful as far as his experience goes, especially in the face of his historically demonstrated weakness in the area of religious and historical basics within Islam.

I also find you guys trying to rush to his defense somewhat amusing given his proclivity for and widespread use of personal attacks on other posters.

I've seen how a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous. You can dismiss what he says or accept it. You do not need to know any more to somehow defame him, endanger him or attack him.

He might give you details of what stores were on the street, what the building looked like and who was next door. Details the average person would not have access to. You do not have the right to ask for more.

Personal details are just that, personal.

Just as a note of caution, this site may have Muslims who are sending viruses / malware / popups / extensions to possibly hack into your computer. I keep having to delete this extension that invites me to listen to the Koran. Ha ha ha. I located the program but the damn thing wouldn't allow me to uninstall it. It was nasty. I did some research and discovered that I needed to get a program that "force uninstalled" it from my programs and all the registries it had lodged itself into. I was better than having to go out and get a new laptop. On the downside I've been wanting to have an excuse to get the new Apple laptop, heard a lot of great things about it.

 

[aris2chat]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

You criticized Roudy for not telling you where he grew up. Why is that important to you? Are you an internet stalker ?

I criticized him for it simply because he keeps attempting to utilize it as an appeal to authority. Notice how I have never asked any of you for such information. If he told me he drew his experience from books I would likewise ask him what the titles of the books were. It's the same thing. If he wants to use it as an appeal to authority then it shouldn't be surprising for someone to inquire about more details concerning said authority; there is after all a huge difference between growing up in Indonesia or Albania, or Senegal, or Saudi Arabia. Saying he "grew up in a Muslim country" doesn't really tell me anything useful as far as his experience goes, especially in the face of his historically demonstrated weakness in the area of religious and historical basics within Islam.

I also find you guys trying to rush to his defense somewhat amusing given his proclivity for and widespread use of personal attacks on other posters.

I've seen how a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous. You can dismiss what he says or accept it. You do not need to know any more to somehow defame him, endanger him or attack him.

He might give you details of what stores were on the street, what the building looked like and who was next door. Details the average person would not have access to. You do not have the right to ask for more.

Personal details are just that, personal.

Just as a note of caution, this site may have Muslims who are sending viruses / malware / popups / extensions to possibly hack into your computer. I keep having to delete this extension that invites me to listen to the Koran. Ha ha ha. I located the program but the damn thing wouldn't allow me to uninstall it. It was nasty. I did some research and discovered that I needed to get a program that "force uninstalled" it from my programs and all the registries it had lodged itself into. I was better than having to go out and get a new laptop. On the downside I've been wanting to have an excuse to get the new Apple laptop, heard a lot of great things about it.

never a problem for me.
Mac lap top very fast almost never viruses or mal. After more than a year my Sony was a little slow, through I keep it well maintained. Was given a win clean and it is almost as fast as my mac.
The downloads and restarts with windows can be annoying on occasion because I rarely shut down, I just put to sleep. It is just a few seconds so I shouldn't complain.

 

[Roudy]

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

You criticized Roudy for not telling you where he grew up. Why is that important to you? Are you an internet stalker ?

I criticized him for it simply because he keeps attempting to utilize it as an appeal to authority. Notice how I have never asked any of you for such information. If he told me he drew his experience from books I would likewise ask him what the titles of the books were. It's the same thing. If he wants to use it as an appeal to authority then it shouldn't be surprising for someone to inquire about more details concerning said authority; there is after all a huge difference between growing up in Indonesia or Albania, or Senegal, or Saudi Arabia. Saying he "grew up in a Muslim country" doesn't really tell me anything useful as far as his experience goes, especially in the face of his historically demonstrated weakness in the area of religious and historical basics within Islam.

I also find you guys trying to rush to his defense somewhat amusing given his proclivity for and widespread use of personal attacks on other posters.

I've seen how a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous. You can dismiss what he says or accept it. You do not need to know any more to somehow defame him, endanger him or attack him.

He might give you details of what stores were on the street, what the building looked like and who was next door. Details the average person would not have access to. You do not have the right to ask for more.

Personal details are just that, personal.

Just as a note of caution, this site may have Muslims who are sending viruses / malware / popups / extensions to possibly hack into your computer. I keep having to delete this extension that invites me to listen to the Koran. Ha ha ha. I located the program but the damn thing wouldn't allow me to uninstall it. It was nasty. I did some research and discovered that I needed to get a program that "force uninstalled" it from my programs and all the registries it had lodged itself into. I was better than having to go out and get a new laptop. On the downside I've been wanting to have an excuse to get the new Apple laptop, heard a lot of great things about it.

never a problem for me.
Mac lap top very fast almost never viruses or mal. After more than a year my Sony was a little slow, through I keep it well maintained. Was given a win clean and it is almost as fast as my mac.
The downloads and restarts with windows can be annoying on occasion because I rarely shut down, I just put to sleep. It is just a few seconds so I shouldn't complain.

I wanted to have a non apple device just in case some attachments or programs aren't compatible. Apple is pretty much virus / malware free. I'm glad I figured out how to remove that nasty extension / malware from my hard drive. The moral is, be careful what you click on, it could be set up to get something bad on your device. At least scan the link before you click on it to make sure it's safe.

 

[Osomir]

1.) That's a bit dishonest given their tendency to declare formal scholars heretics and slate them for execution.

2.) that's exactly the theory of Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb. I guess you agree with them in that area. Meanwhile formal Sunni scholars would disagree.

And yet there are formal scholars across the Muslim world that support these Islamic terrorist organizations. You're just bringing up those that disagree.

Islamic Scholar Pledges Allegiance to ISIS Emir Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Live on Al-Jazeera TV

Like I said, I'd be happy to have a formal debate with you about it given your level of confidence in the subject matter. Let me know when you are sure enough in your knowledge to partake.

I thought that is what we were doing here. You're just upset that your propaganda has fallen flat.

Like I said, claiming that these groups and their actions "have nothing to do with Islam" is a blatant lie, deceiving the ignorant.

No, it isn't. You aren't willing to really hold such discussions because it forces you to address specific points and provide a base level of support for your arguments that you usually try to avoid through personal attacks, ignoring the material in question or through simply abandoning the Thread. These "risks" limit the amount of time one is willing to spend crafting an individual post / reply. I've run into this problem with you on multiple occasions before. Thus I have little incentive to spend 30 minutes writing a detailed post if you are simply going to respond with an insult and then ignore the bulk of its content. You wouldn't have that option in a more structured thread and thus would free others up to talk more about the specific issues. If you can't talk about these subjects without that safety blanket I understand, I just thought I'd give you the option of putting your proverbial money where your mouth is in order to gauge the strength of your conviction and how comfortable you really are with the material.

Again, you, a non Muslim, keep claiming to know more about Islam than all these devout Muslims, their leaders, and their followers, born and bred in religious Islamic families, like Bin Laden and Al Bagdady. I am very secular, not a Muslim nor am I born and bred in a religious family. Just someone who has experienced Islam on a personal level and seen it's effects. And I'll take that over all the bullshit and double talk coming from you.

That's what I thought. let me know when you are ready to man up.