Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims

[High_Gravity]

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

What he did for the Shites was unprecedented but he took Iran from one of the best countries in the area to a third world shithole almost overnight.

 

[Osomir]

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

 

[Osomir]

I also noticed that you balked at my challenge to a formal discussion in the new sub-forum. Let me know if you change your mind.

 

[bripat9643]

Hello,

I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended, while Muhammad took over as the 124 000th prophet, the last of all prophets, who closes the cycle of prophethood. Servanhood of God Almighty, today, and since the 7th century is only through Muhammad's Islam, through true Islam. Jerusalem now belongs to Muhammad, no more to Jesus, no more to Moses, no more to Abraham. This is what pleases God Almighty.

As such, what Americans, Israelis, Europeans, Christianity and Judaism are doing is pure wickedness, pure evil.

Nevertheless, ever since the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century under Umar (may God be well pleased with him), Islam has never been denied Jerusalem or Palestine, and it never will, to the end end of times.

You're a religious kook. Muhammad was a mass murdering pedophile. No civilized person accepts Islam as a serious religion. It's a bloodthirsty cult.

 

[Osomir]

Hello,

I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended, while Muhammad took over as the 124 000th prophet, the last of all prophets, who closes the cycle of prophethood. Servanhood of God Almighty, today, and since the 7th century is only through Muhammad's Islam, through true Islam. Jerusalem now belongs to Muhammad, no more to Jesus, no more to Moses, no more to Abraham. This is what pleases God Almighty.

As such, what Americans, Israelis, Europeans, Christianity and Judaism are doing is pure wickedness, pure evil.

Nevertheless, ever since the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century under Umar (may God be well pleased with him), Islam has never been denied Jerusalem or Palestine, and it never will, to the end end of times.

You're a religious kook. Muhammad was a mass murdering pedophile. No civilized person accepts Islam as a serious religion. It's a bloodthirsty cult.

Well that sounds unbiased.

 

[Phoenall]

you

Sorry I only lived and grew up in a Muslim country.

I've heard you say this many times, and yet you can't 1.) name the country and 2.) you continuously get very basic things incorrect, such as in the thread where we discussed Yemen and you thought that the Sahih Bukhari was part of the Quran. No one with even a passing knowledge of the basics of Islam would make that mistake. No one. So even if you did spend some time in a Muslim country you obviously never studied the religion at all.

ISIS and Al Queda are practicing true Sunni Islam.

That's interesting since they consider each other rather heretical. It doesn't make sense to say that they are BOTH practicing true Sunni Islam when the way that they practice it is so different from each other and indeed opposed to each other.

Iran's Mullah's are practicing true Shia Islam. In fact that's exactly what they are both saying. I don't understsnd what all the confusion is all about.

Iran's council is by far one of the weakest Shia theological institutions in the world. Shia centers of theology tend to surround Qom and Najaf. Historically speaking and theologically speaking, Iran's political shia model goes against classical Shia Islam and is a relatively new expression on the faith.

When Ayatollah Khomeini rose to power in 1979, he specifically said that he's there to establish and export pure Islam. ISIS's leader, who is a devout cleric makes the same claims, they are establishing AN ISLAMIC STATE. What's misunderstanding here?

And Joseph Kony insists that he is establishing a Christian state based on the ten commandments as he has his children soldiers rape their families. These people saying such things doesn't mean that they are legit. You seem to rather be succumbing to the propaganda of these radical groups.

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

Ha ha ha thanks Aris. You're a sweetheart and one of the fairest people I have known.

Would make a very good mod if she wanted to wear that mantle again. But after dealing with immature scots and self centred Greeks I very much doubt she would.

People change when they become mods. And their interactions and relationships change too. You're giving up a lot for nothing.

Not with Aris as I was a member of a board she was a mod on, she was very tolerant and kept all sides in line. She preferred the parental type of moderation with quiet words and understanding.

 

[Phoenall]

Hello,

I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended, while Muhammad took over as the 124 000th prophet, the last of all prophets, who closes the cycle of prophethood. Servanhood of God Almighty, today, and since the 7th century is only through Muhammad's Islam, through true Islam. Jerusalem now belongs to Muhammad, no more to Jesus, no more to Moses, no more to Abraham. This is what pleases God Almighty.

As such, what Americans, Israelis, Europeans, Christianity and Judaism are doing is pure wickedness, pure evil.

Nevertheless, ever since the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century under Umar (may God be well pleased with him), Islam has never been denied Jerusalem or Palestine, and it never will, to the end end of times.

You're a religious kook. Muhammad was a mass murdering pedophile. No civilized person accepts Islam as a serious religion. It's a bloodthirsty cult.

Well that sounds unbiased.

Unbiased or not it is the truth and can be found in the writings of the Koran and hadiths

 

[Osomir]

Hello,

I am Muslim. Everyone knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) is a true prophet of God Almighty, holy and heavenly. If you don't know this, then learn about the Night Journey.
Isra and Mi raj - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Therefore the missions of all 123 999 prophets ended, while Muhammad took over as the 124 000th prophet, the last of all prophets, who closes the cycle of prophethood. Servanhood of God Almighty, today, and since the 7th century is only through Muhammad's Islam, through true Islam. Jerusalem now belongs to Muhammad, no more to Jesus, no more to Moses, no more to Abraham. This is what pleases God Almighty.

As such, what Americans, Israelis, Europeans, Christianity and Judaism are doing is pure wickedness, pure evil.

Nevertheless, ever since the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century under Umar (may God be well pleased with him), Islam has never been denied Jerusalem or Palestine, and it never will, to the end end of times.

You're a religious kook. Muhammad was a mass murdering pedophile. No civilized person accepts Islam as a serious religion. It's a bloodthirsty cult.

Well that sounds unbiased.

Unbiased or not it is the truth and can be found in the writings of the Koran and hadiths

Care to back that up in a formal discussion in the new sub-forum?

 

[Roudy]

You discount and distort reality. Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made. There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?

But he was not a formal Sunni scholar. He lacked the religious credentials for example to issue a formal fatwa (this didn't stop him from issuing his own brand of them, but still). Once again, this is basic stuff.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

He didn't bring anything new, he brought traditional pure Islam, according to his own words, a leading Shia cleric. If you think he's not qualified to know about it, I suggest you review his credentials.

Ruhollah Khomeini - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Ruhollah Moosavi Khomeini (Persian: روح‌الله خمینی‎, [ruːholˈlɑːhe χomeiˈniː] ( listen), 24 September 1902 – 3 June 1989) was an Iranian religious leader, revolutionary, politician, and leader of the 1979 Iranian Revolution which saw the overthrow of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran. Following the revolution, Khomeini became the country's Supreme Leader, a position created in the constitution as the highest-ranking political and religious authority of the nation, which he held until his death.

Khomeini was a faqih (an expert in Islamic law) and author of more than 40 books, but he is primarily known for his political activities. He spent more than 15 years in exile for his opposition to the last Shah. In his writings and preachings he expanded the theory of velayat-e faqih, the "guardianship of the jurisconsult (clerical authority)", to include theocratic political rule by Islamic jurists. This principle [11][12] was appended to the new Iranian constitution[13] after being put to a referendum.[14]

In 1979, Ayatollah Khomeini created the Basij Mostazafan, a voluntary mass movement of mainly young people. When the Iran–Iraq war started in 1980, Khomeini issued a fatwa and promise of paradise and these were incorporated into the Iranian military. During the Iran–Iraq war, Khomeini organized his "human wave" attacks - mass frontal assaults by thousands of young men, advancing up to certain death.[15][16]

He was named Man of the Year in 1979 by American news magazine TIME for his international influence,[17] and has been described as the "virtual face of Islam in Western popular culture"[18] where he remains a controversial figure. He was known for his support of the hostage-takers during the Iran hostage crisis[19] and for calling the US Government the "Great Satan". Khomeini called the USSR the "Lesser Satan" and said that Iran should support neither.[20]

Khomeini held the title of Grand Ayatollah and is officially known as Imam Khomeini inside Iran and by his supporters internationally;[10] he is generally referred to as Ayatollah Khomeini by others.[21] Since the beginning of his rule, Khomeini attempted to establish good relations between Sunnis and Shias.[22]

 

[High_Gravity]

You know whats sad? compared to modern Islamists he is considered a moderate now SMFH

 

[Osomir]

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?

But he was not a formal Sunni scholar. He lacked the religious credentials for example to issue a formal fatwa (this didn't stop him from issuing his own brand of them, but still). Once again, this is basic stuff.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

He didn't bring anything new, he brought traditional pure Islam, according to his own words, a leading Shia cleric. If you think he's not qualified to know about it, I suggest you review his credentials.

I disagree, and I once again if you are so confident about this then I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new sub-forum on this topic. Do you accept or are you going to dodge this one too?

 

[aris2chat]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

don't ask about where he grew up or go digging into his past. This for some is personal information. When I left it took decades before I spoke about my past to anyone. I still won't disclose information about my family, expect perhaps small hints or passing references. Any more details could endanger my relatives.
It does not matter what country or where. Either you accept or don't. It is not your place to ask any more information about him or his past. As big as the middle east is, it a relatively small world when it come to knowledge of families or where people come from. It is far from being as disconnected as in the west.

His personal experience has been proven in his knowledge and understanding. If you want to try to dispute something, leave his past and personal information out of it.

 

[Osomir]

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

I did not claim a right to personal information. Take a couple of deep breaths and try again.

don't ask about where he grew up or go digging into his past. This for some is personal information. When I left it took decades before I spoke about my past to anyone. I still won't disclose information about my family, expect perhaps small hints or passing references. Any more details could endanger my relatives.
It does not matter what country or where. Either you accept or don't. It is not your place to ask any more information about him or his past. As big as the middle east is, it a relatively small world when it come to knowledge of families or where people come from. It is far from being as disconnected as in the west.

His personal experience has been proven in his knowledge and understanding. If you want to try to dispute something, leave his past and personal information out of it.

If he is going to attempt to use personal information to claim authority then I have every right to ask about it or to dismiss said claim to authority. He is the one who brought it up not me. Once again, take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.

 

[Roudy]

ISIS actually evolved out of Al Queda, and they aren't really doing anything different from each other. ISIS is a younger group that has learned to use modern technology to its advantage. Most crucially, ISIS is in total control of large swaths of territory and has a huge source of funding from the territory it holds. Of course Al Queda and ISIS are competitors, but it's possible that one day Al Queda may merge with ISIS.

This doesn't in any way suggest that they are theologically sophisticated. We also know that AQI (the founding entity of ISI and later ISIS) was threatened by bin Laden with excommunication due specifically due to its tactics and the US Army's intelligence center's subsequent analysis of the two groups showed large theological and methodological divisions between the two. I also find it interesting that you would hinge your basis on these two groups since Osama bin Laden had no formal scholarly religious education and specifically eschewed formal religious training in favor of his personalized style of Islamic branding.

ISIS is led by a devout Muslim cleric and thousands of Muslims are flocking to its message because they believe ISIS represents true Islam, and the desire to live a purely ISLAMIC life.

Since you have said this over and over again and seem so confident in yourself, I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new formal discussion forum on the issue where you can finally support your stance in more detail instead of simply defending yourself with the use of personal attacks and thread abandonment.

Ayatollah Khomeini has the status of prophet (imam) among Shia Muslims.

No he doesn't. There are only 12 imams within Jafari Islam and the Imam is only believed to return as the Mahdi in the last days. Khomeini doesn't claim to be the Mahdi, nor is he believed to be by his followers. In terms of physical religious leaders, shias follow what are called Majaji or grand ayatollahs, of which there are over 60 in the world currently living and of which Khamenei is hardly the most popular in terms of religious followers. As far as Khomeini is concerned, Shias are not allowed theologically speaking to adopt the ideas of a Marja who is dead.

He was a man who studied and preached Shia Islam for decades of his life and was the Shai "pope" before he came to power.

Likening anyone to the Shia "pope" is to not understand how Shiism works. Marja are theologically required to have differing views from one another in order to maintain diversity within the faith and in order to ensure theological discourse. The most popular modern Marja to exist was Khoei, and his successor today (Al Sistani) is much more popular theologically speaking than the Iranian government.

Once again, these are pretty basic concepts, and the fact that you don't seem to be aware of them is rather telling when it comes to the robustness of your own acclaimed religious knowledge.

You discount and distort reality. Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made. There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

 

[Osomir]

This doesn't in any way suggest that they are theologically sophisticated. We also know that AQI (the founding entity of ISI and later ISIS) was threatened by bin Laden with excommunication due specifically due to its tactics and the US Army's intelligence center's subsequent analysis of the two groups showed large theological and methodological divisions between the two. I also find it interesting that you would hinge your basis on these two groups since Osama bin Laden had no formal scholarly religious education and specifically eschewed formal religious training in favor of his personalized style of Islamic branding.

Since you have said this over and over again and seem so confident in yourself, I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new formal discussion forum on the issue where you can finally support your stance in more detail instead of simply defending yourself with the use of personal attacks and thread abandonment.

No he doesn't. There are only 12 imams within Jafari Islam and the Imam is only believed to return as the Mahdi in the last days. Khomeini doesn't claim to be the Mahdi, nor is he believed to be by his followers. In terms of physical religious leaders, shias follow what are called Majaji or grand ayatollahs, of which there are over 60 in the world currently living and of which Khamenei is hardly the most popular in terms of religious followers. As far as Khomeini is concerned, Shias are not allowed theologically speaking to adopt the ideas of a Marja who is dead.

Likening anyone to the Shia "pope" is to not understand how Shiism works. Marja are theologically required to have differing views from one another in order to maintain diversity within the faith and in order to ensure theological discourse. The most popular modern Marja to exist was Khoei, and his successor today (Al Sistani) is much more popular theologically speaking than the Iranian government.

Once again, these are pretty basic concepts, and the fact that you don't seem to be aware of them is rather telling when it comes to the robustness of your own acclaimed religious knowledge.

You discount and distort reality. Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made. There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

1.) They don't all behave the same way or utilize the same ideologies and they absolutely to disagree with one another and have even come to blows over those disagreements.

2.) The simple fact is that the people you are pointing to don't have formal Islamic training and aren't considered formal Islamic scholars within Sunni Islam.

 

[aris2chat]

you

Sorry I only lived and grew up in a Muslim country.

I've heard you say this many times, and yet you can't 1.) name the country and 2.) you continuously get very basic things incorrect, such as in the thread where we discussed Yemen and you thought that the Sahih Bukhari was part of the Quran. No one with even a passing knowledge of the basics of Islam would make that mistake. No one. So even if you did spend some time in a Muslim country you obviously never studied the religion at all.

ISIS and Al Queda are practicing true Sunni Islam.

That's interesting since they consider each other rather heretical. It doesn't make sense to say that they are BOTH practicing true Sunni Islam when the way that they practice it is so different from each other and indeed opposed to each other.

Iran's Mullah's are practicing true Shia Islam. In fact that's exactly what they are both saying. I don't understsnd what all the confusion is all about.

Iran's council is by far one of the weakest Shia theological institutions in the world. Shia centers of theology tend to surround Qom and Najaf. Historically speaking and theologically speaking, Iran's political shia model goes against classical Shia Islam and is a relatively new expression on the faith.

When Ayatollah Khomeini rose to power in 1979, he specifically said that he's there to establish and export pure Islam. ISIS's leader, who is a devout cleric makes the same claims, they are establishing AN ISLAMIC STATE. What's misunderstanding here?

And Joseph Kony insists that he is establishing a Christian state based on the ten commandments as he has his children soldiers rape their families. These people saying such things doesn't mean that they are legit. You seem to rather be succumbing to the propaganda of these radical groups.

Have no right to personal information. You should not be asking and it is not permitted to discuss such things beyond what a poster chooses to reveal. You are not permitted to use any person information to attack, defame or harm the poster in any way.

It is none of your d$%* business!

Ha ha ha thanks Aris. You're a sweetheart and one of the fairest people I have known.

Would make a very good mod if she wanted to wear that mantle again. But after dealing with immature scots and self centred Greeks I very much doubt she would.

Thanks but that was a headache and a half. What was it for almost two years? I prefer my freedom and use my time for other things. The archiving alone took so much of the time.....and the people were just blind and mean just "because".

 

[Daniyel]

This doesn't in any way suggest that they are theologically sophisticated. We also know that AQI (the founding entity of ISI and later ISIS) was threatened by bin Laden with excommunication due specifically due to its tactics and the US Army's intelligence center's subsequent analysis of the two groups showed large theological and methodological divisions between the two. I also find it interesting that you would hinge your basis on these two groups since Osama bin Laden had no formal scholarly religious education and specifically eschewed formal religious training in favor of his personalized style of Islamic branding.

Since you have said this over and over again and seem so confident in yourself, I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new formal discussion forum on the issue where you can finally support your stance in more detail instead of simply defending yourself with the use of personal attacks and thread abandonment.

No he doesn't. There are only 12 imams within Jafari Islam and the Imam is only believed to return as the Mahdi in the last days. Khomeini doesn't claim to be the Mahdi, nor is he believed to be by his followers. In terms of physical religious leaders, shias follow what are called Majaji or grand ayatollahs, of which there are over 60 in the world currently living and of which Khamenei is hardly the most popular in terms of religious followers. As far as Khomeini is concerned, Shias are not allowed theologically speaking to adopt the ideas of a Marja who is dead.

Likening anyone to the Shia "pope" is to not understand how Shiism works. Marja are theologically required to have differing views from one another in order to maintain diversity within the faith and in order to ensure theological discourse. The most popular modern Marja to exist was Khoei, and his successor today (Al Sistani) is much more popular theologically speaking than the Iranian government.

Once again, these are pretty basic concepts, and the fact that you don't seem to be aware of them is rather telling when it comes to the robustness of your own acclaimed religious knowledge.

You discount and distort reality. Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made. There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

So how is it that we have all these "devout" Muslims like Al Queda's Ben Laden, ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hezbollah, etc.keep waving the Koran, behaving the same way, justifying medieval barbarism by referring to verses in the Koran, and and making the same claims, more or less?

Just how many Islamic terrorists has this Muslim Brotherhood produced and still producing? Oh wait, what am I saying...the Muslim Brotherhood has nothing to do with Islam either.

I fully agree with you Roudy, those hypocrites claiming to be Muslims and ARE NOT doing exactly what IS/Boko Haram/PIJ/Hamas/Hezbollah/Al Qaeda/MB/PLO ARE DEFINITELY NOT MUSLIMS.
Like it or not but the origins of Islam which defines Muslims is based on a book called the Qur'an which has some pretty harsh things to say about hypocrites.

 

[Roudy]

You know whats sad? compared to modern Islamists he is considered a moderate now SMFH

Yup. Compared to the savagery we see today, the Shia's seem moderate. Yet many forget that the Islamic republic had armies of little children taken by force from their parents, with plastic "keys to heaven" necklaces, they would make them walk through minefields in order to clear the path for tanks, in the Iran / Iraq war. In their prisons, the clerics and guards would rape female political prisoners before their execution because non virgins won't go to heaven in Islam. So it's not that the Shia's are less savage, at that time we didn't have youtube, and people have forgotten.

 

[aris2chat]

This doesn't in any way suggest that they are theologically sophisticated. We also know that AQI (the founding entity of ISI and later ISIS) was threatened by bin Laden with excommunication due specifically due to its tactics and the US Army's intelligence center's subsequent analysis of the two groups showed large theological and methodological divisions between the two. I also find it interesting that you would hinge your basis on these two groups since Osama bin Laden had no formal scholarly religious education and specifically eschewed formal religious training in favor of his personalized style of Islamic branding.

Since you have said this over and over again and seem so confident in yourself, I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new formal discussion forum on the issue where you can finally support your stance in more detail instead of simply defending yourself with the use of personal attacks and thread abandonment.

No he doesn't. There are only 12 imams within Jafari Islam and the Imam is only believed to return as the Mahdi in the last days. Khomeini doesn't claim to be the Mahdi, nor is he believed to be by his followers. In terms of physical religious leaders, shias follow what are called Majaji or grand ayatollahs, of which there are over 60 in the world currently living and of which Khamenei is hardly the most popular in terms of religious followers. As far as Khomeini is concerned, Shias are not allowed theologically speaking to adopt the ideas of a Marja who is dead.

Likening anyone to the Shia "pope" is to not understand how Shiism works. Marja are theologically required to have differing views from one another in order to maintain diversity within the faith and in order to ensure theological discourse. The most popular modern Marja to exist was Khoei, and his successor today (Al Sistani) is much more popular theologically speaking than the Iranian government.

Once again, these are pretty basic concepts, and the fact that you don't seem to be aware of them is rather telling when it comes to the robustness of your own acclaimed religious knowledge.

You discount and distort reality. Khomeini was the head cleric in Iran and was deposed by the Shah, which was the biggest mistake the Shah made. There were other head clerics but he was the main one. After he came to power and died he was given the label "imam" or saint.

Only by his own followers, and this in no way theologically puts him on par with the 12 imams of Jafari Shiism, nor does it change the reality that most of the theological power within 12er shiism is held in Qom and Najaf, not Tehran.Your attempt to brand him as some sort of Shia pope is intellectually dishonest and ignores the traditional theological power structures within the faith.

As far as Bin Laden's knowledge of Islam you seemed to have skipped the formative years of his life where he and Zawahiri STUDIED ISLAM AT THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, and then branched off on their own Jihad in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Studying Islam isn't the same as having a formal Islamic scholarly credentials. His thesis was that Muslims didn't need such formal education and he himself eschewed it, as did one of his main influences: Sayyid Qutb who likewise never completed formal religious training. Bin Laden was never considered to be a formal Islamic scholar.

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?

He used to be quite the playboy in Beirut, back in the day.

When he began making a name for himself it came as quite a surprise to realize who they were actually talking about.

 

[Roudy]

So you see, you're the ignorant arrogant one here. You didn't know that Bin Laden attended an Islamic school known to produce many radicals and terrorist groups and their leaders, and you still still claim that Khomeini isn't considered an Imam in Iran. Now run along before you embarass yourself more:

Going to a school doesn't make one an Islamic scholar. That's not how Sunni scholasticism works. Once again, this is pretty basic stuff that you as a self professed expert should know.

Burn hats quite different from what you represented. Bin Laden was a devout Muslim who became even more devout and radical as a result of his higher ISLAMIC education with the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh but it has nothing to do with Islam does it?

But he was not a formal Sunni scholar. He lacked the religious credentials for example to issue a formal fatwa (this didn't stop him from issuing his own brand of them, but still). Once again, this is basic stuff.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

Khomeini isn't an Imam? what was he than a fry cook? He had to be a religious scholar to do what he did.

Like I said. He is like the pope or saint in Shia Islam. He brought pure and true Islam to Iran, but there are those that keep yapping these that people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam. And the ignorant masses accept this lie.

He brought a completely historically new style of Shiism to Iran: political shiism, and never held much religious sway outside of Iran (political sway? sure, theological sway? no) where the more classical Marjas such as Sistani tended to have larger followings. Calling him a pope is to ignore the basics of what Shia beliefs are.

He didn't bring anything new, he brought traditional pure Islam, according to his own words, a leading Shia cleric. If you think he's not qualified to know about it, I suggest you review his credentials.

I disagree, and I once again if you are so confident about this then I challenge you to a formal discussion in the new sub-forum on this topic. Do you accept or are you going to dodge this one too?

I never claimed to be an expert on Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. I just find it hilarious that you claim to know more about Islam than Ayatollah Khomeini, aka THE GRAND AYATOLLAH of Iran, or Baghdadi, the Sunni cleric ISIS leader. You are basically engaging in deception and fraud. These people are Muslims, they claim they are doing what they are doing in the name of Islam, they label themselves as ISLAMIC STATE, and other Muslims are flocking to them for exactly the same reason. What's the confusion here to formally discuss?