Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims

[Osomir]

Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

This is where you are caught lying. We were never discussing "the Ullama" you simply claimed that it was not common in Shia history for clerics or religious leaders to become involved in politics. That has been proven utterly false. Prior to that you were whining that there is no way Khomeini could be referred to as Islam, and I also proved that one to be false a as we. You diverted and the Ullama after I proved that your statement about clerics running Shia countries turned out to be false.

So like I said, you have no real knowledge, just empty factoids and lies. Here is your claim on post #57 of this thread:

"Iran's council is by far one of the weakest Shia theological institutions in the world. Shia centers of theology tend to surround Qom and Najaf. Historically speaking and theologically speaking, Iran's political shia model goes against classical Shia Islam and is a relatively new expression on the faith."

Utterly false and incorrect, historically, factually, and currently. Now run along before I make you eat your own words. Ha ha ha.

So show me a single example of Iran's political style model in the history of 12er Shiism then.

12er Shiism? You diverted to that and "the Ullama" after I proved how wrong you were. You could have have been more wrong. Quit while you're ahead so you can come back and bullshit another day.

Even your attempted Zaidi Yemeni example doesn't conform to the Iranian governance model. So do you have anything like Iran's political system?

 

[Osomir]

A child?

an 18 year old is not a child.

Yes they are.

No they're not. Drafting age at 18 is perfectly fine. and legal

I'm not arguing against the legality of it. But teenagers are still largely children, especially in conflict. She also still has the look of innocence around her. I've seen children who have lost their childhoods, children who are no longer children. She isn't one of them.

 

[Roudy]

Then you haven't dated Israeli women. They would kick your whiney ass three times over and don't take shit from any man. If you're an insecure man who thinks men have an inherent right to rule over women and abuse them as they do in most of the Muslim world, stay away from Israeli women.

My thesis was on women's rights within developmental economics I work with women empowerment all of the time, from post conflict situations to business development. You're just getting more and more desperate, as I stated before, when you can't support your positions factually you simply result to personal attacks. Pretty typical.

Sounds like your thesis was in making diversionary, irrelevant and false comments because nothing you just said negates what I stated about Israeli women. Anybody who knows Israelis and Israeli women will confirm. Again, I speak from real life experience from living in Israel for two years, having visited it at least 9 times, and dated Israeli women both in Israeli and the U.S., and you speak out of Uranus. That woman is not a kid either, she is of military service age, which would be the same as it is in the US.

Nor does your thesis answer why someone like you would bother to learn so many outdated factoids about Islam.

You must be a Turk. Ha ha ha.

She is a child, with a gun. I have seen many like her in Sierra Leone, Liberia, the DRC, Uganda, and the Sudan. There is nothing sexy about conflict.The fact that we glorify it is childish and revolting.

I know about Islam because I specialize in conflict and terrorism, and post conflict development and I specialize in sub-Saharan Africa and have a love of history. I know because I care, because I have witnessed it, and because it allows me to be better at my job.

According to US law an 18 year old is considered a total adult. Stop talking out of your anus.

You've never been a parent have you? You've never seen conflict either.

One ignorant statement after another. A child will always be a child to a parent no matter how old they are. And I and my family have EXPERIENCED conflict and its effects many times. While you simply may have had snippets where you may have observed something.

 

[Roudy]

A child?

an 18 year old is not a child.

Yes they are.

No they're not. Drafting age at 18 is perfectly fine. and legal

I'm not arguing against the legality of it. But teenagers are still largely children, especially in conflict. She also still has the look of innocence around her. I've seen children who have lost their childhoods, children who are no longer children. She isn't one of them.

You try very hard to make yourself sound knowledgable and an authority. YOU ARE NOT.

 

[Osomir]

A child?

an 18 year old is not a child.

Yes they are.

No they're not. Drafting age at 18 is perfectly fine. and legal

I'm not arguing against the legality of it. But teenagers are still largely children, especially in conflict. She also still has the look of innocence around her. I've seen children who have lost their childhoods, children who are no longer children. She isn't one of them.

You try very hard to make yourself sound knowledgable and an authority. YOU ARE NOT.

If that's what you need the truth to be.

 

[Lipush]

A child?

an 18 year old is not a child.

Yes they are.

No they're not. Drafting age at 18 is perfectly fine. and legal

I'm not arguing against the legality of it. But teenagers are still largely children, especially in conflict. She also still has the look of innocence around her. I've seen children who have lost their childhoods, children who are no longer children. She isn't one of them.

It's the cost of living in conflict.

The world is not all roses and pink bunnies

 

[Roudy]

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

This is where you are caught lying. We were never discussing "the Ullama" you simply claimed that it was not common in Shia history for clerics or religious leaders to become involved in politics. That has been proven utterly false. Prior to that you were whining that there is no way Khomeini could be referred to as Islam, and I also proved that one to be false a as we. You diverted and the Ullama after I proved that your statement about clerics running Shia countries turned out to be false.

So like I said, you have no real knowledge, just empty factoids and lies. Here is your claim on post #57 of this thread:

"Iran's council is by far one of the weakest Shia theological institutions in the world. Shia centers of theology tend to surround Qom and Najaf. Historically speaking and theologically speaking, Iran's political shia model goes against classical Shia Islam and is a relatively new expression on the faith."

Utterly false and incorrect, historically, factually, and currently. Now run along before I make you eat your own words. Ha ha ha.

So show me a single example of Iran's political style model in the history of 12er Shiism then.

12er Shiism? You diverted to that and "the Ullama" after I proved how wrong you were. You could have have been more wrong. Quit while you're ahead so you can come back and bullshit another day.

Even your attempted Zaidi Yemeni example doesn't conform to the Iranian governance model. So do you have anything like Iran's political system?

Yawn. You really need to stop whining. Your statement was in reference to SHIA ISLAM. You aren't even an intellectually honest person. How surprising.

 

[Roudy]

A child?

an 18 year old is not a child.

Yes they are.

No they're not. Drafting age at 18 is perfectly fine. and legal

I'm not arguing against the legality of it. But teenagers are still largely children, especially in conflict. She also still has the look of innocence around her. I've seen children who have lost their childhoods, children who are no longer children. She isn't one of them.

You try very hard to make yourself sound knowledgable and an authority. YOU ARE NOT.

If that's what you need the truth to be.

The claims you make and the way you support them are evidence.

 

[Osomir]

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

This is where you are caught lying. We were never discussing "the Ullama" you simply claimed that it was not common in Shia history for clerics or religious leaders to become involved in politics. That has been proven utterly false. Prior to that you were whining that there is no way Khomeini could be referred to as Islam, and I also proved that one to be false a as we. You diverted and the Ullama after I proved that your statement about clerics running Shia countries turned out to be false.

So like I said, you have no real knowledge, just empty factoids and lies. Here is your claim on post #57 of this thread:

"Iran's council is by far one of the weakest Shia theological institutions in the world. Shia centers of theology tend to surround Qom and Najaf. Historically speaking and theologically speaking, Iran's political shia model goes against classical Shia Islam and is a relatively new expression on the faith."

Utterly false and incorrect, historically, factually, and currently. Now run along before I make you eat your own words. Ha ha ha.

So show me a single example of Iran's political style model in the history of 12er Shiism then.

12er Shiism? You diverted to that and "the Ullama" after I proved how wrong you were. You could have have been more wrong. Quit while you're ahead so you can come back and bullshit another day.

Even your attempted Zaidi Yemeni example doesn't conform to the Iranian governance model. So do you have anything like Iran's political system?

Yawn. You really need to stop whining. Your statement was in reference to SHIA ISLAM. You aren't even an intellectually honest person. How surprising.

Then find me an example in Shia Islam. The Zaidi Imamates are not similar to the Iranian style of governance.

 

[aris2chat]

Are you operating under the false impression that anybody in The West really gives a rat's ass about dead caliphs and caliphates?

I don't expect anyone to care about them or to share my love of history. I was merely initially pointing out that Roudy's assertion that Iranian style modern political shiism was the historical norm (or even the current norm) was inaccurate. The only historical entity that I referenced prior to this were the Safavids. Roudy and aris brought up all of the others, so perhaps your question would be best directed at them.

who gives a shiite! You claimed that shiite clerics generally stayed out of politics. When proven wrong you then diverted to "well they aren't the same type of Shiites, or they aren't the Ullama".

Irrelevant!

Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

 

[Osomir]

I don't expect anyone to care about them or to share my love of history. I was merely initially pointing out that Roudy's assertion that Iranian style modern political shiism was the historical norm (or even the current norm) was inaccurate. The only historical entity that I referenced prior to this were the Safavids. Roudy and aris brought up all of the others, so perhaps your question would be best directed at them.

who gives a shiite! You claimed that shiite clerics generally stayed out of politics. When proven wrong you then diverted to "well they aren't the same type of Shiites, or they aren't the Ullama".

Irrelevant!

Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

 

[aris2chat]

who gives a shiite! You claimed that shiite clerics generally stayed out of politics. When proven wrong you then diverted to "well they aren't the same type of Shiites, or they aren't the Ullama".

Irrelevant!

Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

 

[Osomir]

Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

The entire conversation has been about whether or not this form of governance has been common within Shia Islam and whether or not Iran's model is common within 12er Shiism. Why on earth would you subsequently then try to say yes by pointing to Sunni countries and polities? Are you two really so proud that you can't admit that you got one simple fact wrong?

Also, if you want to go there then no, even within Sunni Islam which is structured differently than Shiism, those countries: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Bahrain are not ruled like Iran. In Saudi Arabia there is a very distinct divide between the rulers (the Sauds) and the Wahhabis. They complement each other, but it is not the same as having the religious clerics in charge. It is familial authoritarian rule.

In fact sunni Islamists tend to see Iran as very irritating specifically because they have been able to achieve something that Sunni Islamists haven't been able to pull off within the contemporary period. It is embarrassing for them and riddles the discourse of Sunni Islamists and terrorists.

 

[aris2chat]

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

The entire conversation has been about whether or not this form of governance has been common within Shia Islam and whether or not Iran's model is common within 12er Shiism. Why on earth would you subsequently then try to say yes by pointing to Sunni countries and polities? Are you two really so proud that you can't admit that you got one simple fact wrong?

The thread topic is "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims". 34 pages of conversation and they are not all about shia/shiite ulama. I also gave you two other countries to dispute your "single case" demand............and you are not discussing but attacking posters when they present information.
Seems you are more afraid to consider that you might be the one that is wrong. You need to take a deep breath and relax.

 

[Osomir]

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

The entire conversation has been about whether or not this form of governance has been common within Shia Islam and whether or not Iran's model is common within 12er Shiism. Why on earth would you subsequently then try to say yes by pointing to Sunni countries and polities? Are you two really so proud that you can't admit that you got one simple fact wrong?

The thread topic is "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims". 34 pages of conversation and they are not all about shia/shiite ulama. I also gave you two other countries to dispute your "single case" demand............and you are not discussing but attacking posters when they present information.
Seems you are more afraid to consider that you might be the one that is wrong. You need to take a deep breath and relax.

No need for hysterics. Pakistan and Bahrain don't fit Roudy's point either, they are in fact further away from it than even Saudi Arabia and once again all Sunni, not Shia. So once again, let me know when either of you have any supporting evidence of your claims.

 

[Roudy]

I don't expect anyone to care about them or to share my love of history. I was merely initially pointing out that Roudy's assertion that Iranian style modern political shiism was the historical norm (or even the current norm) was inaccurate. The only historical entity that I referenced prior to this were the Safavids. Roudy and aris brought up all of the others, so perhaps your question would be best directed at them.

who gives a shiite! You claimed that shiite clerics generally stayed out of politics. When proven wrong you then diverted to "well they aren't the same type of Shiites, or they aren't the Ullama".

Irrelevant!

Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

Holy Shiite! There goes another of Osomir's claims, down the flush! Like I said, he tries to compensate his lack of knowledge by blurting out these inaccurate statements, which have nothing to with facts or reality.

 

[aris2chat]

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

The entire conversation has been about whether or not this form of governance has been common within Shia Islam and whether or not Iran's model is common within 12er Shiism. Why on earth would you subsequently then try to say yes by pointing to Sunni countries and polities? Are you two really so proud that you can't admit that you got one simple fact wrong?

The thread topic is "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims". 34 pages of conversation and they are not all about shia/shiite ulama. I also gave you two other countries to dispute your "single case" demand............and you are not discussing but attacking posters when they present information.
Seems you are more afraid to consider that you might be the one that is wrong. You need to take a deep breath and relax.

No need for hysterics. Pakistan and Bahrain don't fit Roudy's point either, they are in fact further away from it than even Saudi Arabia and once again all Sunni, not Shia. So once again, let me know when either of you have any supporting evidence of your claims.

The Role of the Ulama in Shiite Social Movements: Bahrain, Lebanon, and Iraq by Brian P. Maynard
Up till last year the ulama in Bahrain held vast authority over the government and life. The ulama council was ordered to shut a few months ago

 

[Roudy]

Once again even if you ignore the fact that you had to point to a completely different branch of Islam to support a general point you made about 12er shiism, I also feel inclined to point out that finding one example doesn't support your hypothesis that said methodology was / is the norm. In order for a norm to exist it has to be common

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

Yeah. He's very good at making himself look stupid. And I don't even know if we are dealing with a he, sounds more like a she to me.

Now you know why Osomir wanted to be in a private room, so that everyone else doesn't see him / her get constantly humiliated! Ha ha ha.

Makes sense now.

 

[Roudy]

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

The entire conversation has been about whether or not this form of governance has been common within Shia Islam and whether or not Iran's model is common within 12er Shiism. Why on earth would you subsequently then try to say yes by pointing to Sunni countries and polities? Are you two really so proud that you can't admit that you got one simple fact wrong?

The thread topic is "Palestine and Jerusalem belong to Muslims". 34 pages of conversation and they are not all about shia/shiite ulama. I also gave you two other countries to dispute your "single case" demand............and you are not discussing but attacking posters when they present information.
Seems you are more afraid to consider that you might be the one that is wrong. You need to take a deep breath and relax.

It appears that Osomirs entire existence is making himself look knowledgable on the Internet, and when people like us shatter it, his entire world crumbles.

 

[Roudy]

The norm existed and it was common for clerics to rule or to have influence, as I exhibited. Besides, who gives a shiite and what does it matter? Your lack of real knowledge is clearly showing by the ignorant statements you constantly make. Also, which insane person would study about Islam in depth (and from Western sources) and know so little? Man, you are truly pathetic. You just throw out irrelevant, incorrect factoids which have nothing to do with reality.

You haven't shown a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran.

The Ulama in Contemporary Islam Custodians of Change Custodians of Change - Muhammad Qasim Zaman - Google Books

A Couple of things:

1.) I've read Qasim Zaman and he doesn't agree with Roudy
2.) What you linked to talks about religious personnel within a Sunni state, not Shia ulama.

I do honestly appreciate the sourcing though, it is a far cry better than the slinging of insults a la roudy.

You wanted "a single case of the ulama ruling outside of Iran".
Now you're squirming and trying to say that does not count. How about pakistan or bahrain?
You are making yourself pathetic.

The entire conversation has been about whether or not this form of governance has been common within Shia Islam and whether or not Iran's model is common within 12er Shiism. Why on earth would you subsequently then try to say yes by pointing to Sunni countries and polities? Are you two really so proud that you can't admit that you got one simple fact wrong?

Also, if you want to go there then no, even within Sunni Islam which is structured differently than Shiism, those countries: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Bahrain are not ruled like Iran. In Saudi Arabia there is a very distinct divide between the rulers (the Sauds) and the Wahhabis. They complement each other, but it is not the same as having the religious clerics in charge. It is familial authoritarian rule.

In fact sunni Islamists tend to see Iran as very irritating specifically because they have been able to achieve something that Sunni Islamists haven't been able to pull off within the contemporary period. It is embarrassing for them and riddles the discourse of Sunni Islamists and terrorists.

Yes, the entire conversation is about your diversionary, stupid and ignorant claim that Iran's mullah's and Khomenis legacy not being the spearhead of the Shai world, and it's political and ideological tentacles throughout the region and the world. One day you when you remove your head from Uranus, a loud POP will be heard across the world.