Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[sealybobo]

Here's a thought. Use science in nature, to explain morality. You certainly don't see morality in nature. Nor does the science of the material world explain morality. So where did the idea that something can be morally right or morally wrong, if we're just animals from evolution?

Declare stuff.. Demand stuff.. Rinse and repeat..
I easily see morality in nature. You don't. Oh well..

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

 

[sealybobo]

Gravity can't be explained scientifically.

Of course it can:

A warping of space caused by mass within that space.

Explained. What sort of explanation are you looking for?

Why does that happen?

Gravity mysteries: What is gravity?

We tend to think of gravity as a force that affects objects, but Einstein showed it was something else entirely More: Seven things that don't make sense about gravity You jump up, and gravity brings you back down to Earth. You reach the brow of a hill and gravity accelerates you down the other...

www.newscientist.com

We don't know. Again you are describing what happens, not explaining why it happens.

As Fort Fun knows, I happen to fundamentally disagree with his (and Einstein's.. along with practically the entire current scientific status quo's..) theory regarding this (what gravity is). However, I recognize his as both a scientific theory and one having a lot of consensus in support. That equals a measure of "We knowing" by scientific definition. Having a scientifically, unfalsifiable, repeatably testable theory.. is knowing something. Certainly more than can be said for any gods. The math, at least, works out . The logic and results otherwise are where I take issue and opt for, what seems to me at least, a far more satisfying overall explanation, effectively resulting in the same math. But I'm not going to devote the next ten years required to deprogram you or anyone else here trying to explain it all. Been there, tested that idea. Doing so just proved a waste of my time.

Suffice it to say, you or "newscientist.com" declaring something a "mystery" doesn't logically qualify it as such for everyone("We"). Have you even tried Googling "Theories explaining gravity" or the equivalent, for example? Try it. I think you'll find lots to chew on.. Don't just look at the first results..

Yeah, don't waste your time trying to "deprogram" me. You can't. It's impossible, because I have met G-d. I knew he exists, because he has directly answered prayers, in real direct ways.

He's as real to me as you are. In fact, more real in some ways, because I only know you as "Grumblenuts" which is nothing. You could be anywhere, doing anything. You could be a bot, or cutting and pasting this from some other person. Who knows. And same for me, right?

But G-d to me, has directly moved in my life. He is there. He hears my prayers. He doesn't always answer how I want, but he does answer.

So... yeah, you are not going to de-program me, or whatever. Not going to happen.

I love science. I read science articles for fun. My favorite topic of choice is nuclear physics. Now I'm no expert or something, but I enjoy science.

And sure I've read articles on "Theories explaining gravity" Sure. They explain very well the math of how gravity works. They explain what gravity does. They explain very well the mechanics involved.

"Every point mass attracts every single point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is directly proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses."

Right?

But what science cannot answer is.... why? Why does this happen? We can calculate it. We can demonstrate it. We can document and describe it. But it still doesn't explain.... why?

Sure we have hypothesis. That's great. But, anyone can make a guess.

My only statement in this thread was, the OP said Science can explain everything. No... it can't. Science can do many many things, but it can't "explain everything".

Here's a thought. Use science in nature, to explain morality. You certainly don't see morality in nature. Nor does the science of the material world explain morality. So where did the idea that something can be morally right or morally wrong, if we're just animals from evolution?

I think we can use nature to explain morality. I'll cite Jane Goodall's study of chimpanzees as the natural analogy to human tribal customs that evolves into law (and which codes morality). Furthermore, we consistently see humans -- with no specific religious connotation, have survival-based laws that preclude wanton murder and thievery. Further still, we see simple indigenous tribes have better morality than industrial nations have -- for instance, many tribes have no concept of thievery because they communally share everything.

I wonder if bullying is as big of a problem in the Amazon jungle as it is here in Christian American schools.

 

[Meriweather]

Christianity has no value here. Or it has the same value as Mormonism.

Keep in mind I grew up in a family that included two atheists and married into a family of atheists. As far back as I can remember atheism (or lack of belief) has had the same value as faith of any denomination. I find it interesting that you distinguish those of the LDS Church from Christianity. It has been my experience that people of the LDS faith are exemplary Christians.

 

[sealybobo]

How's this then:

first seek God. This results in the awe of knowing that God is love, apparently well hidden Bible verses. With the certainty of knowing God's love, the Bible presents itself quite differently. The themes, the lessons, and the context the original authors presented come into light.

First you find God..
Then you get the Awe..
The Certainty..
And the Love..
Then you get the Themes, Lessens, Context..
And thus,.. finally,.. the Light!

And first you have to find god. Until then I don’t want to hear about the lessons

 

[Meriweather]

And first you have to find god. Until then I don’t want to hear about the lessons

That has been my point all along. First seek God. Then the lessons fall into place. At this point in life, I doubt anyone is forcing any other adult to hearing lessons.

My thought is to encourage children to do the same. Seek God, then figure out the lessons once you have the tools.

 

[Hollie]

Gravity can't be explained scientifically.

Of course it can:

A warping of space caused by mass within that space.

Explained. What sort of explanation are you looking for?

Why does that happen?

Gravity mysteries: What is gravity?

We tend to think of gravity as a force that affects objects, but Einstein showed it was something else entirely More: Seven things that don't make sense about gravity You jump up, and gravity brings you back down to Earth. You reach the brow of a hill and gravity accelerates you down the other...

www.newscientist.com

We don't know. Again you are describing what happens, not explaining why it happens.

As Fort Fun knows, I happen to fundamentally disagree with his (and Einstein's.. along with practically the entire current scientific status quo's..) theory regarding this (what gravity is). However, I recognize his as both a scientific theory and one having a lot of consensus in support. That equals a measure of "We knowing" by scientific definition. Having a scientifically, unfalsifiable, repeatably testable theory.. is knowing something. Certainly more than can be said for any gods. The math, at least, works out . The logic and results otherwise are where I take issue and opt for, what seems to me at least, a far more satisfying overall explanation, effectively resulting in the same math. But I'm not going to devote the next ten years required to deprogram you or anyone else here trying to explain it all. Been there, tested that idea. Doing so just proved a waste of my time.

Suffice it to say, you or "newscientist.com" declaring something a "mystery" doesn't logically qualify it as such for everyone("We"). Have you even tried Googling "Theories explaining gravity" or the equivalent, for example? Try it. I think you'll find lots to chew on.. Don't just look at the first results..

Yeah, don't waste your time trying to "deprogram" me. You can't. It's impossible, because I have met G-d. I knew he exists, because he has directly answered prayers, in real direct ways.

He's as real to me as you are. In fact, more real in some ways, because I only know you as "Grumblenuts" which is nothing. You could be anywhere, doing anything. You could be a bot, or cutting and pasting this from some other person. Who knows. And same for me, right?

But G-d to me, has directly moved in my life. He is there. He hears my prayers. He doesn't always answer how I want, but he does answer.

So... yeah, you are not going to de-program me, or whatever. Not going to happen.

I love science. I read science articles for fun. My favorite topic of choice is nuclear physics. Now I'm no expert or something, but I enjoy science.

And sure I've read articles on "Theories explaining gravity" Sure. They explain very well the math of how gravity works. They explain what gravity does. They explain very well the mechanics involved.

"Every point mass attracts every single point mass by a force pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is directly proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses."

Right?

But what science cannot answer is.... why? Why does this happen? We can calculate it. We can demonstrate it. We can document and describe it. But it still doesn't explain.... why?

Sure we have hypothesis. That's great. But, anyone can make a guess.

My only statement in this thread was, the OP said Science can explain everything. No... it can't. Science can do many many things, but it can't "explain everything".

Here's a thought. Use science in nature, to explain morality. You certainly don't see morality in nature. Nor does the science of the material world explain morality. So where did the idea that something can be morally right or morally wrong, if we're just animals from evolution?

I think we can use nature to explain morality. I'll cite Jane Goodall's study of chimpanzees as the natural analogy to human tribal customs that evolves into law (and which codes morality). Furthermore, we consistently see humans -- with no specific religious connotation, have survival-based laws that preclude wanton murder and thievery. Further still, we see simple indigenous tribes have better morality than industrial nations have -- for instance, many tribes have no concept of thievery because they communally share everything.

Not sure if that makes the case you think it does.

Is the Chimp making a moral judgement, or is it acting on instincts?

And saying humans with no specific religious connotation, have moral laws.. would actually support the Biblical narrative.

Remember, we Christians believe that Man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Meaning that all human beings are born with a moral compass. That compass may be heavily influenced by the culture they are in, but they have it.

As for tribes, I'm not sure if you can really conclude their morality is "better", when they have nothing to steal.

If you don't own anything, then nothing can be stolen from you. That doesn't mean your morals are better. And I don't know which specific tribes you refer to, but I don't know of any that are better to live in, than modern civilization.

Chimpanzees have social orders not terribly unlike human societies.

Only known chimp war reveals how societies splinter

Chimp wars are rare, but they're a violent lot PICTURE the scene: a weak leader is struggling to hold onto power as ambitious upstarts plot to take over. As tensions rise, the community splits and the killing begins. The war will last for years. No, this isn't the storyline of an HBO fantasy...

www.newscientist.com

I think that first, its important to be cautious about ascribing terms such as moral, immoral, or amoral, to the natural world.

Those terms are human defined in the context of socio-political constructs and are thus subject to widely varying interpretation. For example, is it immoral for the lion to kill a gazelle in order for her to feed her cubs? We have no indication that the lion feels grief or remorse as she chokes the life out of her struggling gazelle. We have no indication that the lion struggles with a moral dilemma about killing prey as a food source. It’s a function of survival.

The natural world is a mechanism, not a participant in the process of survival.

Nothing in the above supports any Biblical narrative.

That man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil means that (per Christian theology), that all mankind is born with original sin. All mankind is born evil and base. That's an utterly horrible thing to saddle children with. What's worse is that per the Genesis fable, the gods lied, Satan told the truth.

Also, why would the gods create mankind out of dust, give him sentience, a special place in the universe, and then give animals such similar abilities—just at a lower “wattage”? Yet more confusion, making it seem as though we evolved our characteristics from animals similar to us, who share 99.9% of our DNA, instead of humans being qualitatively different. Why would a god do this, particularly when the bible says man will have dominion over all beasts?

And lastly, (then I’ll shut up), why is it we see these rudimentary social structures in animals that don't really have any special creation? Why do higher apes adhere to "moralities" (with the exceptions noted above), I suppose there are those who must believe that the gods have touched them as well.

 

[Grumblenuts]

try to imagine a dolphin, who creates all existence - what do you see?

The exact same thing as imagining some god doing it. Silliness.

I know. I'm trying to keep it respectful and polite but I think we see where the theist starts to go off the deep end. Doing such things as insisting their god is not of this physical world.

I think it should be ok for us to call bullshit on the bullshit. This thread started off with normal people admitting no one can know for sure but now we have a bunch of theists who claim to know and even though I told them I won't take any holy books seriously, they continue to want to use it as a source.

You could set your watch by it

 

[Grumblenuts]

How's this then:

first seek God. This results in the awe of knowing that God is love, apparently well hidden Bible verses. With the certainty of knowing God's love, the Bible presents itself quite differently. The themes, the lessons, and the context the original authors presented come into light.

First you find God..
Then you get the Awe..
The Certainty..
And the Love..
Then you get the Themes, Lessens, Context..
And thus,.. finally,.. the Light!

And first you have to find god. Until then I don’t want to hear about the lessons

 

[Grumblenuts]

Ah, that's such bullshit!
Fa get a bout it!
Look, it says so right heeya!
In da Good Book of Bullshit!

 

[Blues Man]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

 

[Grumblenuts]

Here's a thought. Use science in nature, to explain morality. You certainly don't see morality in nature. Nor does the science of the material world explain morality. So where did the idea that something can be morally right or morally wrong, if we're just animals from evolution?

Declare stuff.. Demand stuff.. Rinse and repeat..
I easily see morality in nature. You don't. Oh well..

They easily see god when we can’t and we see morality in nature and they can’t see it.

We're logical. They're full of beans. Logic is abstract. Beans are substantive. Go figure.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I am a fundamentalist.

False, sorry. No, you don't get to make up new definitions to words.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

No one here spoke about transcendence

Wrong. It was the impetus for me to talk about it. Dude, you are ALWAYS WRONG when you just blurt out the first thought that pops into your colon. Go back and re read, and stop wasting my time. Don't post to me again with your made up on the spot horseshit.

 

[buttercup]

But there is the other extreme, which I think should also be avoided, and that is to disbelieve ALL religion, in favor of a sort of vague belief in a higher power or impersonal "force."

Hi buttercup. Last I heard from my sister they were stuck in their Baja, Mx winter spot with dim prospects for much of anything coming or going such as fresh supplies . Things opening up there at all? No worries here far as extreme vague beliefs in higher powers or anything. In place of such concerns I've studied Nature's wheel works long and hard and have been enjoying a crystal clear picture of what makes the world go round, how we got here, where we all inevitably go, and so forth for quite a while. Decades now. At least. But, you know, to each their own. Love your sig poem.

Hi. I haven't been out in a few days, but the last time I was out and about, there are still certain businesses that are closed here, like hair salons, etc. Most restaurants are open only for takeout. But apart from that, things are mostly normal where I'm at in Northern Baja. I think some people are still wearing masks, but overall things aren't too bad here. And thanks, I liked that poem too!

As for nature and what makes the world go round, I'll save that discussion for another time... I'm not in the mood to debate anyone (on any topic) right now, haha.

 

[buttercup]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way.

Because of the curiosity and free choice the iron age character gave us. And your god character knew it was going to happen. Your preferred god character is an immoral piece of crap.

 

[buttercup]

It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way.

Because of the curiosity and free choice the iron age character gave us. And your god character knew it was going to happen. Your preferred god character is an immoral piece of crap.

You seem to view free will as a bad thing, when the opposite is true. But any good thing can be misused. If I gave you a thousand dollars as a gift, and you used it to do something bad, does that mean that the $1000 was not a gift? No, and to think otherwise is childish and shows an aversion to personal responsibility.

God's omniscience does not negate our free choice. Anyway, you clearly have a lot of anger and emotion on this topic, and I know from past experience how pointless it is to try to have a discussion with you. So I probably won't stick around, unless you surprise me.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You seem to view free will as a bad thing

Nothing i said implies it is bad. Take your whiny bullshit and lies waaaay over there -->

I am not one of your sunday school kids that you brainwash. These childish lies and red herrings won't work on me.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Original Sin, did I hear someone say? Ew, do I got some a dat fer ya.. rat heeya!:

What is it called when you talk about the original sin in Israel?
You tell of Eve
---
God's punishment
God gave women labor pains and monthly bleeding as the punishment for the original sin. Men's punishment is to be with his wife and listen to her problems. That's why god hates homosexuals. They found a loophole in this system.
---
{Now that wasn't horribly sexist, no way! And jhc, the stupid site then provides like 18 versions of the following}
The Pope and the most renowned Rabbi are having a discussion...
...But neither of them speak a common language, and {blaa, blaa, blaa.. cutting to the chase..} "I don't quite know what happened," He said, "I waved his arm around to say 'Get out of here' so I pointed down to tell him I'm staying he gave me 3 seconds to get out so I gave him the finger, then he showed me his lunch so I showed him mine"
{.. ba dump, boom}
---
"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"
---
Elder: "Will God punish us for things we haven't done?"
Quorum Instructor: "Of course not."
Elder: "Good, because I haven’t done my home teaching."
---

That meme is blatantly incorrect and misguided. God didn't create us with "original sin." We were clean slates, created with free will. It was US (humankind) who chose to go our own way. But again, I'm not going to get into any big discussions right now, maybe another time soon, if time permits.

Well, no gods "created" anything in my humble opinion, but as I've already said, to each their own. And there's the actual rub. Us atheists generally don't go around proselytizing. Attempting to convert people from a belief system to a lack of belief is obviously rather dull compared to the reverse. There's really nothing to promote or sell other than the lack of bullshit swallowing required for membership. I've always been an atheist and remain grateful to my parents for raising me to think for myself and value logic. Naturally, I was curious about all this religion stuff as a kid, so explored it for many years by tagging along to church functions with my neighbors until, as Fort Fun has indicated, I too had a major run in with a pastor who demanded that I accept Jesus right there and then for him. Then I really started listening and seriously thinking about it all. And have never stopped or changed my mind despite all manner of peer pressure and the same strong desire just to fit in like everyone else. No. Sorry. That's free will.