Zone1 On the fall of Lucifer

[presonorek]

could or could not have been and as meriweather stated some code the jews could figure out but the romans could not, nobody really knows, it was written over 2000 years ago

It could be code.

 

[Meriweather]

It could be code.

More accurately symbolism and figurative language the Romans didn't understand.

 

[hobelim]

It could be code.

Of course it is. Most of the Bible, OT & NT, was written during harsh times under threats of complete destruction by nations far more powerful and numerous, brutal occupation, cruel unrelenting persecution, and exile.

That being said they used coded language so that what they were teaching went over the heads of "the enemy".

Just like any outlawed and demonized group of people do in every language since time began to this day.

Talking serpents, swine that do not ruminate, stars falling from the sky, the dead coming out of their graves are coded expressions not very hard to decipher. Definitely within the reach of any educated grade school child.

The only mystery is how something so simple remains above the grasp of so many "unclean creatures" which is not really mysterious at all. If you fill your head with garbage you will surely die "the death", a curse, and lose your mind, your soul, your sanity. Many never return to "a right mind" and spend the rest of their days suffering in hell.

The proof is everywhere. In every country, among every group pf people of every nationality belief or language.

 

[hobelim]

More accurately symbolism and figurative language the Romans didn't understand.

Apparently since they are still seeking spiritual life from bread made by human hands, they still don't understand.

Damn smart them Bronze Age goat herders!

You might not realize this but to Jesus, his disciples, followers and unknown authors of the gospels who witnessed the destruction of Judea, the temple, their way of life and the exile, enslavement, and slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Jewish men, women, and children, "the nations" were the enemy.

God loved the roman world so much that he became a Jewish man , a perfect human sacrifice, so they could celebrate his torture and crucifixion, and very solemnly eat him on their knees every now and then on Sundays.

Copra sanctum!

That was the first century equivalent of the nuclear option. The vast far reaching desolation remains to this day.

 

[luiza]

Why do you care?

Because it is us who have to take care of and control the mentally unbalanced and the Sheeple .

You can have as many soppy beliefs as make you happy but once you imagine you have special rights, or warrant special attention , you become an unnecessary luxury .
Cultists are fine for entertainment only .

 

[Woodznutz]

Because it is us who have to take care of and control the mentally unbalanced and the Sheeple .

You do realize that most of the 8 billion people on earth believe in a/the "Big Guy in the Sky". You've got your work cut out for you.

 

[onefour1]

Lucifer or Satan did not hold to wanting us all saved but abandoned that idea to try and get God the Father's plan to fail. He now seeks the utter destruction of the souls of mankind.

 

[onefour1]

Our premortal existence as spirit children of God before we came into this earth life is known as our first estate. Those of us who sided with God the Father and Jesus and Michael were allowed to receive bodies of flesh and bones and go through mortality here on this earth. Jesus was called before the foundation of this earth to be our Savior and through repentance and turning unto Jesus for our salvation, we could be saved. This earth life is our second estate. Lucifer and his followers chose not to keep their first estate but fell from heaven.

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Those of us who have bodies in this life kept our first estate and now it is up to us to keep our second estate.

 

[onefour1]

Abraham 3:26-28
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

 

[Shiversepter]

.
I believe that the manuscripts of the Greek New Testament do not present the message that there are " Fallen Angels " today.

if we look at the original message we see that the Translations attempt to weave and insert this narrative by changing and altering the original message of the Manuscripts.

in Jud 1: 6 - 7 - - what we see is a total and complete change from the ORIGINAL MESSAGE in what the translators have changed and altered –

here is exactly what the original manuscripts are clearly saying - Jud 1:6

:6
αγγελους THE ANGELS - τε ALSO - τους THAT - μη NEITHER - τηρησαντας HAD KEPT -
την THIS - εαυτων THEIR - αρχην BEGINNINGS - - αλλα BUT - απολιποντας THEY LEFT –
το THEIR - ιδιον OWN - οικητηριον HABITATION - εις TO - κρισιν JUDGMENT -
μεγαλης A GREAT - ημερας DAY - δεσμοις BOUND - αιδιοις ETERNALLY - υπο UNDER –
ζοφον DARKNESS - τετηρηκεν KEPT.

MEANING =

:6
THE ANGELS ALSO THAT NOT HAD KEPT THIS THEIR BEGINNINGS BUT THEY LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION TO JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY BOUND ETERNALLY UNDER DARKNESS KEPT.

We see in the translation a narrative that is added and inserted into the passage is much different than the original manuscripts. we see that the Angels

= they left their own habitation to judgment of the great day

But, we notice that the translators have moved and shuffled the word - “ KEPT “ at the very ending of the verse - to insert the idea that God is currently KEEPING the Angels bound in chains.

But in the manuscripts the word “ KEPT “ is the very last word of the verse, the very last word at the very end …….

And the passage says absolutely nothing about God currently keeping the Angels

- It does not say - “ he hath reserved / “ KEPT “ in everlasting chains - this false narrative was added and inserted into the translation.

the manuscripts say - Jud 1:6

THE ANGELS ALSO THAT NOT HAD KEPT THIS THEIR BEGINNINGS

BUT THEY LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION

TO JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY BOUND ETERNALLY UNDER DARKNESS KEPT.


The Translation says -

:6 And the angels which KEPT not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved / KEPT in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

this simple message we see from the manuscripts is not something that attempts to make the claim that God is holding angels in prison today, but, their judgment is a future Great Day Of Judgment - in the future

from the manuscripts, it is just a simple message that says simply what it says, moving words around to alter the original message is simply dishonest.​

 

[Woodznutz]

.
I believe that the manuscripts of the Greek New Testament do not present the message that there are " Fallen Angels " today.

if we look at the original message we see that the Translations attempt to weave and insert this narrative by changing and altering the original message of the Manuscripts.

in Jud 1: 6 - 7 - - what we see is a total and complete change from the ORIGINAL MESSAGE in what the translators have changed and altered –

here is exactly what the original manuscripts are clearly saying - Jud 1:6

:6
αγγελους THE ANGELS - τε ALSO - τους THAT - μη NEITHER - τηρησαντας HAD KEPT -
την THIS - εαυτων THEIR - αρχην BEGINNINGS - - αλλα BUT - απολιποντας THEY LEFT –
το THEIR - ιδιον OWN - οικητηριον HABITATION - εις TO - κρισιν JUDGMENT -
μεγαλης A GREAT - ημερας DAY - δεσμοις BOUND - αιδιοις ETERNALLY - υπο UNDER –
ζοφον DARKNESS - τετηρηκεν KEPT.

MEANING =

:6
THE ANGELS ALSO THAT NOT HAD KEPT THIS THEIR BEGINNINGS BUT THEY LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION TO JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY BOUND ETERNALLY UNDER DARKNESS KEPT.

We see in the translation a narrative that is added and inserted into the passage is much different than the original manuscripts. we see that the Angels

= they left their own habitation to judgment of the great day

But, we notice that the translators have moved and shuffled the word - “ KEPT “ at the very ending of the verse - to insert the idea that God is currently KEEPING the Angels bound in chains.

But in the manuscripts the word “ KEPT “ is the very last word of the verse, the very last word at the very end …….

And the passage says absolutely nothing about God currently keeping the Angels

- It does not say - “ he hath reserved / “ KEPT “ in everlasting chains - this false narrative was added and inserted into the translation.

the manuscripts say - Jud 1:6

THE ANGELS ALSO THAT NOT HAD KEPT THIS THEIR BEGINNINGS

BUT THEY LEFT THEIR OWN HABITATION

TO JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY BOUND ETERNALLY UNDER DARKNESS KEPT.


The Translation says -

:6 And the angels which KEPT not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved / KEPT in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

this simple message we see from the manuscripts is not something that attempts to make the claim that God is holding angels in prison today, but, their judgment is a future Great Day Of Judgment - in the future

from the manuscripts, it is just a simple message that says simply what it says, moving words around to alter the original message is simply dishonest.​

That's the way I understand it.

 

[Hafar1014]

In the Bible according to the book of Revelation, before we came to this earth, there was a war in heaven between Lucifer and his followers and God, Jesus, and Michael and those who followed after them.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Here we learn that Michael and his angels prevailed in the war in heaven and Lucifer and his angels were cast out of heaven into this earth. We then learn that eventually Michael and his angels overcame Lucifer by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimonies, and they loved not their lives unto the death. In other words, those who fought in the war in heaven also came down to this earth and needed the blood of the Lamb and a testimony to overcome Lucifer. We also learn that they were subject to death. Lucifer and his followers were denied the right to ever receive a body of flesh and bones. For this reason they often try to possess the bodies of those who do have bodies. Those who sided with God the Father, Jesus the Christ, and Michael the archangel were allowed to come to this earth and receive bodies of flesh and bones. So what caused this war that occurred in heaven? God has revealed in latter-day revelation the cause of the war in heaven and how the fall of Lucifer and his minions occurred. Lucifer was son of God who held high station among the children of God before this earth was created. He was a son of the morning.

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

In latter-day revelation through the prophet Joseph Smith we learn what the conflict was all about:

Moses 4:1-4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

In these verses we learn that Lucifer, whose name was changed to Satan, sought to be the Savior of the world and had his own ideas on how mankind should be saved. He claimed that he could save all mankind that not one soul would be lost. We also learn that part of Lucifer's plan was to destroy the agency of mankind. Apparently, Lucifer would force everyone to obey him and in this way he would save all mankind. Lucifer presented his plan to the Father but the Father rejected Lucifer's plan. Lucifer was angry and then went among the children of God to have them agree with his plan and to reject the plan of the Father. He was actually very successful and got 1/3 of the host of heaven to take his side. This what the whole war in heaven was all about. Lucifer was turning the children of God against him and coming out in open rebellion against God our Father in Heaven. For this reason Lucifer and his followers were cast out of heaven into the earth and were denied the opportunity ever receive bodies of flesh and bones. So, how attractive do you find Lucifer's offer to save every soul? Why do you suppose that God the Father rejected Lucifer's plan? What was the problem with Lucifer's plan?

Lucifer is the bearer of light there is no devil in the Pentateuch
Satan means liar not a devil of god of evil

 

[onefour1]

Lucifer is the bearer of light there is no devil in the Pentateuch
Satan means liar not a devil of god of evil

Lucifer hasn't been a bearer of light since he was cast out of heaven. God changed Lucifers name from Lucifer to the Devil, and Satan and Perdition. He no longer holds the standing he had in heaven but now has become the faither of lies and of secret combinations of murder and deceit.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Hafar1014]

Lucifer hasn't been a bearer of light since he was cast out of heaven. God changed Lucifers name from Lucifer to the Devil, and Satan and Perdition. He no longer holds the standing he had in heaven but now has become the faither of lies and of secret combinations of murder and deceit.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Christians made the changes to create a religion that could control people. They distorted the beauty and wisdom of Genesis and created a religion of sin hell devils and oppression. They needed a reason for the Jesus myth so they changed the moral teaching of ma to the Fall of Man. They never had the wisdom toi know they were describing themselves It was also violent as they murdered the Gnostics and tried to exterminate Jews for the next 2000 years. There is no original sin and consequently no reason for there to be Jesus

 

[onefour1]

Christians made the changes to create a religion that could control people. They distorted the beauty and wisdom of Genesis and created a religion of sin hell devils and oppression. They needed a reason for the Jesus myth so they changed the moral teaching of ma to the Fall of Man. They never had the wisdom toi know they were describing themselves It was also violent as they murdered the Gnostics and tried to exterminate Jews for the next 2000 years. There is no original sin and consequently no reason for there to be Jesus

Distorted the beauty and wisdom of Genesis? So what was the message of Genesis before your so called distortion? Where do you get this bizarre concept from?

 

[Hafar1014]

Distorted the beauty and wisdom of Genesis? So what was the message of Genesis before your so called distortion? Where do you get this bizarre concept from?

The message of Genesis is free will morals the Trial of mans freedom, evolution since Adam evolves from the beginning to the end of the allegory, and mans inherent need to define meaning in his life.

In the beginning god says "I will make man" in my "likeness." That means man is potentially divine and can evolve. After he eats the fruit acquires morals God states "Let us make the man" Use of the royal we means major event has occurred Adam evolved. He isnt expelled from Eden he has outgrown it. Eden is childhood.

There is no original sin. It is Gods plan that Adam eats the fruit to learn morals. He cant sin by obeying Gods plan. Before he ate the fruit he dont know what sin was and therefore cant sin. God wanted an independent Adam who would choose to come to Him of his own free will. We arent ants or bees.

The serpent is from Hebrew folklore the metaphor for guile and has the power of speech. Its not satan

There is no original sin fall of man or devil.
Its an allegory Adam Eve and Eden and the serpent are metaphors.
If you could read Hebrew and understand Jewish values you could understand what it means.

 

[Persuader]

I would say that it would be well worth it if you really want to understand the Book of Revelation.

The quote "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" from Shakespeare's Hamlet emphasizes the limitations of human knowledge and understanding. It suggests that the universe and life contain mysteries and phenomena that lie beyond what humans can currently comprehend through reason, science, or philosophy.

 

[forkintheroad7]

I've read revelations a few times and it's like some crazy comic book story
it's so hard to follow what is going on, I was wrote over 2000 years ago
what was the mindset then as it's nothing we know of now
it reads likes like a crazy fantasy tale of good and evil

That's funny. When I read Revelation I understand it, at least the message anyway, and that is what is important.

I don't like all the multi-headed animals and etc. but I get the gist of the message very clearly. God punishes evildoers.

That's the theme all through the Bible, except that He doesn't punish people these days (since Jesus came) while they are on Earth, only later in Hell or Purgatory.

There are scriptures to support Purgatory... Mt 18:23.. Phil 2:12 etc.. One I don't remember the numbers for was this: Jesus said that whoever eats His Body (Eucharist / Transubstantiation)

"will not die forever."

That supports Purgatory where there is torment and a sense of dying but when one is purified, one then enters Heaven

 

[egp320i]

That's funny. When I read Revelation I understand it, at least the message anyway, and that is what is important.

I don't like all the multi-headed animals and etc. but I get the gist of the message very clearly. God punishes evildoers.

That's the theme all through the Bible, except that He doesn't punish people these days (since Jesus came) while they are on Earth, only later in Hell or Purgatory.

There are scriptures to support Purgatory... Mt 18:23.. Phil 2:12 etc.. One I don't remember the numbers for was this: Jesus said that whoever eats His Body (Eucharist / Transubstantiation)

"will not die forever."

That supports Purgatory where there is torment and a sense of dying but when one is purified, one then enters Heaven

It's not an easy read, many scholars have debated it for the past 2000 years, I read it when I was a kid, if I give it a read again it might make more sense

 

[HaShev]

In the Bible according to the book of Revelation, before we came to this earth, there was a war in heaven between Lucifer and his followers and God, Jesus, and Michael and those who followed after them.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Here we learn that Michael and his angels prevailed in the war in heaven and Lucifer and his angels were cast out of heaven into this earth. We then learn that eventually Michael and his angels overcame Lucifer by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimonies, and they loved not their lives unto the death. In other words, those who fought in the war in heaven also came down to this earth and needed the blood of the Lamb and a testimony to overcome Lucifer. We also learn that they were subject to death. Lucifer and his followers were denied the right to ever receive a body of flesh and bones. For this reason they often try to possess the bodies of those who do have bodies. Those who sided with God the Father, Jesus the Christ, and Michael the archangel were allowed to come to this earth and receive bodies of flesh and bones. So what caused this war that occurred in heaven? God has revealed in latter-day revelation the cause of the war in heaven and how the fall of Lucifer and his minions occurred. Lucifer was son of God who held high station among the children of God before this earth was created. He was a son of the morning.

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

In latter-day revelation through the prophet Joseph Smith we learn what the conflict was all about:

Moses 4:1-4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

In these verses we learn that Lucifer, whose name was changed to Satan, sought to be the Savior of the world and had his own ideas on how mankind should be saved. He claimed that he could save all mankind that not one soul would be lost. We also learn that part of Lucifer's plan was to destroy the agency of mankind. Apparently, Lucifer would force everyone to obey him and in this way he would save all mankind. Lucifer presented his plan to the Father but the Father rejected Lucifer's plan. Lucifer was angry and then went among the children of God to have them agree with his plan and to reject the plan of the Father. He was actually very successful and got 1/3 of the host of heaven to take his side. This what the whole war in heaven was all about. Lucifer was turning the children of God against him and coming out in open rebellion against God our Father in Heaven. For this reason Lucifer and his followers were cast out of heaven into the earth and were denied the opportunity ever receive bodies of flesh and bones. So, how attractive do you find Lucifer's offer to save every soul? Why do you suppose that God the Father rejected Lucifer's plan? What was the problem with Lucifer's plan?

replace heaven with the Hebrew word used "Olam Habah" i.e. world to come=perfected future. Angel replace with the Hebrew Malakh=messenger /rabbi.
Now re-read your legends:
The fallen messenger doesn't have to live in the world to come future, but his image legend can be and thus kicked out= aka banish the legend and message taught by the false prophet who got his people scattered and slain and enslaved by their enemy Rome.