Not much difference between being pro-life and pro-choice

Dr.Drock

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I've learned that the views are much more similar in principle than you'd think.

Most pro-lifers want abortion legal up to a certain point in terms of rape, incest, and if the mother's help is in danger.

Most pro-choicers want abortion legal up to a certain point in all cases.

The only differences are in the very small minorities who make up each group. Examples of this are in the pro-life group who oppose abortion even in cases of rape, incest, mothers help and the extremes in the pro-choice group who think abortions should be able to happen at any point in the pregnancy.

I've all all the crazy rhetoric from both sides like "baby killing", "you're anti-freedom", "you don't care about the baby", "you don't care about the mother" is just silly childish rhetoric said in order to gain some kind of emotion-based reaction.
 

jillian

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The difference is that the supreme court has said the governmental interest in controlling a woman's body doesn't exceed the woman's interest in self-determination until a certain point in the pregnancy. anti choice advocates have zip zero nada respect for that.

Why don't we start from the premise that government doesn't exist to enforce religious ideology and go on from there?
 
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Dr.Drock

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The difference is that the supreme court has said the governmental interest in controlling a woman's body doesn't exceed the woman's interest in self-determination until a certain point in the pregnancy. anti choice advocates have zip zero nada respect for that.

Why don't we start from the premise that government doesn't exist to enforce religious ideology and go on from there?
I hear ya, I was just talking about the stances of people. Just about everyone wants abortions to be legal, they just want certain stipulations.


So not really anyone views it as "baby killing", unless they're anti-abortion in ALL cases.
 

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blastoff

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I still say the best abortions are those partial birth ones. It's so cool when the tiny babies' little arms and legs get to twitching as something is pushed through their soft skulls into their brains.
 
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Dr.Drock

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I still say the best abortions are those partial birth ones. It's so cool when the tiny babies' little arms and legs get to twitching as something is pushed through their soft skulls into their brains.
And the good thing is I've never heard a single person voice support for such a thing.
 

ladyliberal

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You're right that most people have somewhat moderate views on abortions policy. A recent poll (Abortion) found only 34% preferring either total legalization or total criminalization of abortions.

However, my impression has been that among actual pro-life and pro-choice activists, there is very little common ground. There seems to be more acrimony than over pros and antis on other issues like tax policy, war policy, gun control, gay rights, etc.
 

jillian

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The difference is that the supreme court has said the governmental interest in controlling a woman's body doesn't exceed the woman's interest in self-determination until a certain point in the pregnancy. anti choice advocates have zip zero nada respect for that.

Why don't we start from the premise that government doesn't exist to enforce religious ideology and go on from there?
I hear ya, I was just talking about the stances of people. Just about everyone wants abortions to be legal, they just want certain stipulations.


So not really anyone views it as "baby killing", unless they're anti-abortion in ALL cases.
in real life? yes. most people want to woman to have control over her body at least up to a certain point. the problem is that the anti-choice activists shriek about the "innocent babies" when there are 10 cells. you can't negotiate with those people. there's no common ground, imo.

the people who like showing pictures of what they claim are aborted fetuses and think it's ok for doctors who perform abortions to be targeted by the right.. are not rational on this subject.

as for "stipulations"... whose? yours? mine?l some anti choicer who, at best, thinks a judge should decide if a teenage girl can have "permission" to terminate a pregnancy?

Roe v Wade IS the "stupulations. Beyond that, government has no right to interject.
 
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Dr.Drock

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You're right that most people have somewhat moderate views on abortions policy. A recent poll (Abortion) found only 34% preferring either total legalization or total criminalization of abortions.

However, my impression has been that among actual pro-life and pro-choice activists, there is very little common ground. There seems to be more acrimony than over pros and antis on other issues like tax policy, war policy, gun control, gay rights, etc.
Well said, most don't see the fact that the common ground outweighs the differences.

Just about everyone I talk to on both sides wants the same number of abortions to happen in this country, zero. We all just feel there's diff strategies to accomplish getting as close to this number as possible.

Also currently abortion rates are declining steeply, and have been for about 30 years or so.
 

Vanquish

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I view it as baby killing, Dr. Drock. And not for religious reasons, as I'm an atheist.

Rape and incest don't excuse it. A medical situation where it's more likely that the mother can be saved than the child is the only situation I can think of that might condone it.

It's nice, I suppose, that you're trying to show both sides that they're closer than they think...but I disagree with that premise and haven't really been shown anything to the contrary.
 
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Dr.Drock

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I view it as baby killing, Dr. Drock. And not for religious reasons, as I'm an atheist.

Rape and incest don't excuse it. A medical situation where it's more likely that the mother can be saved than the child is the only situation I can think of that might condone it.

It's nice, I suppose, that you're trying to show both sides that they're closer than they think...but I disagree with that premise and haven't really been shown anything to the contrary.
I acknowledged that your position exists in my OP, and I take no issue with it.

Your position is the only position I view as truly 100% pro-life. I don't share your position, but I respect it.
 

Vanquish

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I view it as baby killing, Dr. Drock. And not for religious reasons, as I'm an atheist.

Rape and incest don't excuse it. A medical situation where it's more likely that the mother can be saved than the child is the only situation I can think of that might condone it.

It's nice, I suppose, that you're trying to show both sides that they're closer than they think...but I disagree with that premise and haven't really been shown anything to the contrary.
I acknowledged that your position exists in my OP, and I take no issue with it.

Your position is the only position I view as truly 100% pro-life. I don't share your position, but I respect it.
Much appreciated.
 

tinydancer

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I've learned that the views are much more similar in principle than you'd think.

Most pro-lifers want abortion legal up to a certain point in terms of rape, incest, and if the mother's help is in danger.

Most pro-choicers want abortion legal up to a certain point in all cases.

The only differences are in the very small minorities who make up each group. Examples of this are in the pro-life group who oppose abortion even in cases of rape, incest, mothers help and the extremes in the pro-choice group who think abortions should be able to happen at any point in the pregnancy.

I've all all the crazy rhetoric from both sides like "baby killing", "you're anti-freedom", "you don't care about the baby", "you don't care about the mother" is just silly childish rhetoric said in order to gain some kind of emotion-based reaction.
You ever felt a baby in your womb? It's the most amazing feeling when you can put your hand over your belly and feel the child inside you.

It's not an "it".
 
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Dr.Drock

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I've learned that the views are much more similar in principle than you'd think.

Most pro-lifers want abortion legal up to a certain point in terms of rape, incest, and if the mother's help is in danger.

Most pro-choicers want abortion legal up to a certain point in all cases.

The only differences are in the very small minorities who make up each group. Examples of this are in the pro-life group who oppose abortion even in cases of rape, incest, mothers help and the extremes in the pro-choice group who think abortions should be able to happen at any point in the pregnancy.

I've all all the crazy rhetoric from both sides like "baby killing", "you're anti-freedom", "you don't care about the baby", "you don't care about the mother" is just silly childish rhetoric said in order to gain some kind of emotion-based reaction.
You ever felt a baby in your womb? It's the most amazing feeling when you can put your hand over your belly and feel the child inside you.

It's not an "it".
Fair enough, doesn't change either of the main stream stances you see the overwhelming majority claim to be a part of.
 

tinydancer

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Here's my biggest problem with pro life extremists. You've got this one wing where it's all or nothing. Same on the pro choicers who admire Tiller.

If I had my way, the morning after pill would be free to anyone. But then we'd end up solving unwanted pregnancies and put so many out of work who profit from abortion.

It's become an industry.
 
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tinydancer

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I've learned that the views are much more similar in principle than you'd think.

Most pro-lifers want abortion legal up to a certain point in terms of rape, incest, and if the mother's help is in danger.

Most pro-choicers want abortion legal up to a certain point in all cases.

The only differences are in the very small minorities who make up each group. Examples of this are in the pro-life group who oppose abortion even in cases of rape, incest, mothers help and the extremes in the pro-choice group who think abortions should be able to happen at any point in the pregnancy.

I've all all the crazy rhetoric from both sides like "baby killing", "you're anti-freedom", "you don't care about the baby", "you don't care about the mother" is just silly childish rhetoric said in order to gain some kind of emotion-based reaction.
You ever felt a baby in your womb? It's the most amazing feeling when you can put your hand over your belly and feel the child inside you.

It's not an "it".
Fair enough, doesn't change either of the main stream stances you see the overwhelming majority claim to be a part of.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass here. But when you find out Tiller was aborting babies at 9 months, come on.

That's a certain kind of evil. That being said, it really does put mummy in a new light as well.

Mummy who is aborting at 9 months beats the hell out of Joan Crawford's reputation.
 

Intense

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The difference is that the supreme court has said the governmental interest in controlling a woman's body doesn't exceed the woman's interest in self-determination until a certain point in the pregnancy. anti choice advocates have zip zero nada respect for that.

Why don't we start from the premise that government doesn't exist to enforce religious ideology and go on from there?
Do Not Steal?

Do Not Kill?

Do not bear False Witness?

:eusa_whistle: :eusa_whistle: :eusa_whistle: :eusa_whistle: :eusa_whistle: ;)
 

LordBrownTrout

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And the little life is still dead. You can try to justify it but in the end, the result is death.
 

martybegan

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Abortion is the prime example of a zero compromise issue for some people. It is also similar to the gun control debate, where the side on defense (abortion rights/gun rights people) take a slippery slope attitude to any percived infringement of said right. Some pro choicers see ANY attempt at infringement as having the eventual goal of ending the legality of abortion, and in some cases they are right.

To me it all comes down to the situation. When it comes to physical medical reasons, and non consuensual sex of any stripe, abortion is a legitamate method of correcting the situation.

That being said, abortion used as a form of better late than never birth control is pretty fucked up. A person has many methods of not getting pregnant, and to end a life just because you don't feel like accepting the results of your actions is just asshattery to me.

The big debate will come when we are able to easily quanitfy a fetuses qualities using chromosonal testing. At that point, the question becomes far murkier, for example if a "gay" gene somehow exists, and can be tested for, should aborting said fetus be legal?
 

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