New Website on the American Civil War

[Quantrill]

Nope. Doesn't say "secession". In fact, there was no option in the Constitution to leave the union.




The guy was as guilty as a cat in a canary cage. They didn't put him on trial because Johnson was a feckless idiot who thought if you appeased the South, things would go back to the way they were before the war.



Buchanan handed him over to Virginia knowing they'd murder him. When the man was a HERO!

Yep. Article X. What is delegated can be resumed. Secession. Here is a quote from ex-President John Quincy Adams of Mass. in 1839, taken from ('A Theological and Political View Of The Doctrine of Secession', Al Benson Jr., 1995, p. 2)

"To the people alone is there reserved as well the dissolving as the constituent power...we may admit the same right as vested in the people of every state in the Union with reference to the General Government, which weas exercised by the people of the united colonies with reference to the supreme head of the British empire, of which they formed a part; and under these limitations (i.e. that the act of secession follow a breach of contract and be answerable to conscience) have the people of each state in the Union a right to secede from the confederated Union itself."

"Northerners seem to have forgotten or were unaware of a great secessionist tradition in America....The procedure for joining the Union also applied to withdrawing from the Union. And the Tenth Amendment, which reserved to the states powers not delegated to the federal government, would seem to put the matter of secession with the states and the people." (When In The Course Of Human Events, Charles Adams, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Inc., 2000, p. 181)


Here is the 'Declaration Of Independence'. "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal status to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitles them a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

And each state that seceded gave a secession document to Congress declaring these causes.

And in Virginias ratification statement concerning the Constitution, "We the delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected...do, in the name and behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under the constitution, being derived from the people of the United States, may be resumed by them, whenever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression." (Avalon Project -Ratification of the Constitution by the State of Virginia, avalon,law.yale.edu)

And in New York's ratification statement, "WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York...Do declare and make known...That the powers of government may be resumed by the people whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness..." (Avalon Project-Ratification of the Constitution by the the State of New York, June 26, 1788, avalon.law.yale.edu)

Concerning President Johnson and the 'Trial Of Jefferson Davis', "President Johnson thought of an easy way out, He would pardon Davis as he had pardoned so many other Confederates. But Davis refused a pardon; 'To ask for a pardon would be a confession of guilt.' Davis wanted a trial;" (Adams, p. 186)

Davis wanted a trial because he knew he would be found innocent, and the North would be found guilty. And so did the many lawyers who were supposed to prosecute Davis. Which is why they kept resigning. So much for your bullshit statements.

Who executed John Brown? The Federal Government or the State of Virginia? Simple question which you already lied about. Will you continue your lies? You're a perfect example of the yankees knowledge of the War Between The States....made up bullshit.

Quantrill

 

[JoeB131]

Yep. Article X. What is delegated can be resumed. Secession. Here is a quote from ex-President John Quincy Adams of Mass. in 1839, taken from ('A Theological and Political View Of The Doctrine of Secession', Al Benson Jr., 1995, p. 2)

So the opinion of one of our worst presidents, really doesn't mean all that much.

Davis wanted a trial because he knew he would be found innocent, and the North would be found guilty. And so did the many lawyers who were supposed to prosecute Davis. Which is why they kept resigning. So much for your bullshit statements.

Davis didn't want a trial, he knew he was guilty. Heck, that's why he tried to flee the country dressed as a woman.

 

[Quantrill]

So the opinion of one of our worst presidents, really doesn't mean all that much.



Davis didn't want a trial, he knew he was guilty. Heck, that's why he tried to flee the country dressed as a woman.

It's a hell of a lot better then the bullshit your spitting. And, I gave much more than John Quincy Adams. Which of course you ignore as it proves you're a liar. You're not mistaken...you're lying as it has been proved to you.

"Davis's private secretary Burton Harrison reported in 1866 that the delays proved 'a great disappointment to the chief,-he has all along earnestly desired a trial, confident...[that] the world and posterity would see the thing in its right light, if the court and jury did not.' For this reason, Davis steadfastly refused to apply for a pardon. Pardon would have presented Andrew Johnson with a graceful solution to the difficult problems Davis's trial presented.

"Robert E. Lee had applied for a pardon as early as June 1865, and had taken the loyalty oath that October. But Davis would not follow suit, because, as one of his friends put it, 'what has he done to ask pardon for?' Intermediaries, such as the Christian missionary Paul Bagley, attempted to broker a deal between Davis and President Johnson, but neither would budge. Johnson refused to commit in advance to pardoning Davis.

Bagley urged Davis to acknowledge that the 'God of Battles' had given an answer to the secession question that no court of law could overturn. Davis should not now expect to 'raise it from the dead and bring it to the bar and aquit it or its exponet, yourself.' Davis would not cooperate, however. As Varina Davis said, he could not honestly express the contrition he did not feel." (Secession On Trial, Cynthia Nicoletti, Cambridge University Press, 2017, p. 65-66)

"Davis believed firmly that secession was a complete defense to the 'charge of Treason, as defined by the Constitution, but he doubted that a court would vindicate him. Davis understood that Union victory would be enough of an adjudication of the secession question for many. In his view, the Republicans in Congress would use a trial to 'degrade our cause in person,' and he remained ready to meet the challenge." (Nicoletti, p. 66)

"I have lived for my country, he wrote melodramatically and have risked on many occasions my life in her service, [so] it may therefore be pardonable of me to say I am now willing to die for our sacred cause." (Nicoletti, p. 66)

So, contrary to your lie, Davis knew he was innocent. But he doubted a court made up of Yankees would vindicate him. But he was going to have the trial anyway so that it would be showed before all the world the truth about secession. And the Yankees knew the same thing now. And they didn't want it known and displayed that it was them who were responsible for the some 800,000 lives lost in that war. That it was them who was the traitor. Glory, glory, hallelujah.

Again, who executed John Brown? Federal government or State of Virginia? You lied about it and now cannot own up to it. All you do is belch out the shit they shoved up your ass.

Quantrill

 

[JoeB131]

"Davis believed firmly that secession was a complete defense to the 'charge of Treason, as defined by the Constitution, but he doubted that a court would vindicate him. Davis understood that Union victory would be enough of an adjudication of the secession question for many. In his view, the Republicans in Congress would use a trial to 'degrade our cause in person,' and he remained ready to meet the challenge." (Nicoletti, p. 66)

Wait now, now you are saying that he thought he would be found guilty?

Johnson was a feckless idiot who never should have pardoned the Confederates.

 

[Quantrill]

Wait now, now you are saying that he thought he would be found guilty?

Johnson was a feckless idiot who never should have pardoned the Confederates.

Read it. It's not difficult. Post #(123). It proves you're full of shit and lies.

Again, who executed John Brown? The Federal government or the State of Virginia? Crawfish.

Quantrill

 

[JoeB131]

Read it. It's not difficult. Post #(123). It proves you're full of shit and lies.

Naw, guy, you are making contradictory statements. Either Davis thought he was going to prevail at trial, or he thought he wasn't.

The problem is, he couldn't take a pardon unlike all the people who were following his orders. That would have made him look silly. It also would have required him to take an oath to the union.

The thing was, the minute he got bail, the POS fled to Canada and didn't come back until Johnson pardoned all the other Confederate traitors.

 

[mikegriffith1]

It seems to me those "radical" republicans got the war they wanted buy not the way they wanted it or when they wanted it. So how much do you think they influenced the historical events? I say not much at all.

On the contrary, the Radical Republicans were the driving force behind the demand for using force to reunite the Union. As leading Lincoln scholar Dr. David Donald noted, there is every indication that Lincoln would not have used force unless the Confederacy attacked a federal installation or invaded the North. Civil War scholar Otto Eisenschiml made a credible case that Lincoln's orders for the Sumter naval convoy were designed to make the convoy as non-threatening and non-provocative as possible.

The Radicals also played the decisive role in impeding the war effort, especially in the eastern theater, and preventing an early end to the war. They did not want victory without the abolition of slavery, even if it meant the additional deaths of hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

In addition, the Radicals were the driving force behind the ditching of Lincoln's moderate Reconstruction terms and replacing them with their own harsh and vindictive terms

Lincoln did it the right way for the right reason. He cared more about preserving the union than he did about ending slavery. As far as I'm, concerned, Lincoln did his job.

After the Confederates foolishly bombarded and seized Fort Sumter, Lincoln knew he had no choice but to use force. Lincoln honestly believed that the war would be very short, that after a federal army won a big victory in Virginia, Southern leaders would come to their senses and return to the Union.

I agree that Lincoln cared more about preserving the Union than about ending slavery. He made that as clear as one can make something in the English language.

 

[Quantrill]

Naw, guy, you are making contradictory statements. Either Davis thought he was going to prevail at trial, or he thought he wasn't.

The problem is, he couldn't take a pardon unlike all the people who were following his orders. That would have made him look silly. It also would have required him to take an oath to the union.

The thing was, the minute he got bail, the POS fled to Canada and didn't come back until Johnson pardoned all the other Confederate traitors.

Show my contradictory statements. Davis knew he was innocent. Davis knew a trial would reveal the lying Yankee position. But he didn't expect a fair trial. Davis would prevail because the truth would come out. Read again, if in fact you ever read it at all, post #(123).

And still you lie. Davis 'would not' take a pardon in order to vindicate himself and the South. Read post #(123). It had nothing to do with the oath of allegiance. The problem was the Yankee prosecutors who feared bringing Davis to trial for reasons already stated.

Davis went to Canada legally to be with family. He was not jumping bail.

Who executed John Brown? The Federal Government or the State of Virginia? Here's your chance to correct your lie. Crawfish.

Quantrill

 

[mikegriffith1]

Show my contradictory statements. Davis knew he was innocent. Davis knew a trial would reveal the lying Yankee position. But he didn't expect a fair trial. Davis would prevail because the truth would come out. Read again, if in fact you ever read it at all, post #(123).

And still you lie. Davis 'would not' take a pardon in order to vindicate himself and the South. Read post #(123). It had nothing to do with the oath of allegiance. The problem was the Yankee prosecutors who feared bringing Davis to trial for reasons already stated.

Davis went to Canada legally to be with family. He was not jumping bail.

Who executed John Brown? The Federal Government or the State of Virginia? Here's your chance to correct your lie. Crawfish.

Quantrill

Quantrill, perhaps you're not familiar with JoeB131's record. You are wasting your time trying to reason with him. Not only is he woefully unread when it comes to history, but he's downright, genuine anti-Semitic and pro-Communist wingnut. Here are some of his fringe statements from previous replies--these are exact quotes (and clarifying comments of mine are in brackets; all the other statements are his statements quoted verbatim):

Again, Hitler wasn't the problem. The problem was your average German who had to eat the family dog in 1919 because the feckless idiots overthrew the Kaiser and forced a humiliating peace.

Now, if you want to downplay the roll Jewish revolutionaries played in toppling the Kaiser, or how Jewish Bankers screwed Germany in the economic turmoil that occurred in the 1920's, that's fine.

Was it [the Holocaust] bad? I guess.

The problem with most analysis of Nazism is that it ignores what an absolute [crap]-show Weimar Germany was.

Again, investigations [into the USS Liberty incident] that were told by LBJ what their conclusion was. But, no, no, our government isn't controlled by the Zionist Lobby at all.

You are right, I don't believe the Zionist *&$%$#, and I don't believe our lying traitor government that sold out to them decades ago.

This is the problem when you let Jews take over your government.

If Israel didn't exist, do you think we'd have a terror problem? We wouldn't.

Right, just keep pretending they [Jewish bankers who control the economy] aren't a thing.

 

[JoeB131]

Show my contradictory statements. Davis knew he was innocent. Davis knew a trial would reveal the lying Yankee position.

Come on, guy, either Davis thought he was going to be convicted, (which is why he fled to Canada the minute he got parole and stayed there until Johnson foolishly gave Amnesty to the Confederate) or he wanted a trial real bad to vindicate himself.

Here's a hint. You don't flee to Canada if you think you are going to prevail.

 

[JoeB131]

Quantrill, perhaps you're not familiar with JoeB131's record. You are wasting your time trying to reason with him. Not only is he woefully unread when it comes to history, but he's downright, genuine anti-Semitic and pro-Communist wingnut. Here are some of his fringe statements from previous replies--these are exact quotes (and clarifying comments of mine are in brackets; all the other statements are his statements quoted verbatim):

Right, I guess it's just easier for you to believe that Hitler mind controlled 70 million Germans into doing his bidding, and there were absolutely no aggrevating factors that led to Nazism. It's easier for you to believe that, while you blithly watch your own country slide into fascism.

The Germans were literally starving when they turned to Hitler. What's America's excuse for Trump? "Eek, there's an immigrant tranny in my bathroom!"

 

[Quantrill]

Quantrill, perhaps you're not familiar with JoeB131's record. You are wasting your time trying to reason with him. Not only is he woefully unread when it comes to history, but he's downright, genuine anti-Semitic and pro-Communist wingnut. Here are some of his fringe statements from previous replies--these are exact quotes (and clarifying comments of mine are in brackets; all the other statements are his statements quoted verbatim):

Yes, I am aware he is full of shit. But he chooses to be ignorant and to believe the lies. Which makes him a liar. And I Iike to turn over the rocks and watch the vermin run.

Quantrill

 

[rightwinger]

What I learned in 4th grade

LIncoln was our greatest President
The Civil War was about slavery
The South started the war by attacking Ft Sumter

Nothing has changed

 

[Quantrill]

Come on, guy, either Davis thought he was going to be convicted, (which is why he fled to Canada the minute he got parole and stayed there until Johnson foolishly gave Amnesty to the Confederate) or he wanted a trial real bad to vindicate himself.

Here's a hint. You don't flee to Canada if you think you are going to prevail.

Another lie. You accuse me of contradictory statements and I ask you to show them. And you can't. You were caught in another lie.

No. Another lie. Davis family was in Canada. They probably went there to avoid being murdered by the lying Yankees. Davis had no restrictions on his bail. And he never jumped bail. Another lie.

Davis would prevail just having the trial whether he was found guilty or not. Because it would be revealed who the real traitors were, the lying Yankees. The lying Yankees were prone to hang innocent people. They didn't give a shit if you were guilty or not. Davis life was safer from them in Canada.

Any more bullshit lies to dream up? Who executed John Brown? The Federal government or the State of Virginia? Crawfish.

Quantrill

 

[ding]

On the contrary, the Radical Republicans were the driving force behind the demand for using force to reunite the Union. As leading Lincoln scholar Dr. David Donald noted, there is every indication that Lincoln would not have used force unless the Confederacy attacked a federal installation or invaded the North. Civil War scholar Otto Eisenschiml made a credible case that Lincoln's orders for the Sumter naval convoy were designed to make the convoy as non-threatening and non-provocative as possible.

The Radicals also played the decisive role in impeding the war effort, especially in the eastern theater, and preventing an early end to the war. They did not want victory without the abolition of slavery, even if it meant the additional deaths of hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

In addition, the Radicals were the driving force behind the ditching of Lincoln's moderate Reconstruction terms and replacing them with their own harsh and vindictive terms



After the Confederates foolishly bombarded and seized Fort Sumter, Lincoln knew he had no choice but to use force. Lincoln honestly believed that the war would be very short, that after a federal army won a big victory in Virginia, Southern leaders would come to their senses and return to the Union.

I agree that Lincoln cared more about preserving the Union than about ending slavery. He made that as clear as one can make something in the English language.

But they did attack the resupply vessel.

 

[Quantrill]

But they did attack the resupply vessel.

Which one and under whose administration?

Quantrill

 

[ding]

Which one and under whose administration?

Quantrill

If you don't know the history maybe this isn't the thread for you.

 

[Quantrill]

If you don't know the history maybe this isn't the thread for you.

Oh gee...another one. You stated 'they did attack the resupply vessel'. My question is relevant. Which one and under whose administration?

I know of both, I'm trying to find out if you know what you're talking about. Apparently you don't as it is not a difficult question.

So, again. Which one and under whose administration are you talking about?

Quantrill

 

[ding]

Oh gee...another one. You stated 'they did attack the resupply vessel'. My question is relevant. Which one and under whose administration?

I know of both, I'm trying to find out if you know what you're talking about. Apparently you don't as it is not a difficult question.

So, again. Which one and under whose administration are you talking about?

Quantrill

Maybe educate yourself on history and you won't have to ask such questions. I have no need to convince anyone who is biased by their racism.

 

[Quantrill]

Maybe educate yourself on history and you won't have to ask such questions. I have no need to convince anyone who is biased by their racism.

When you can't answer the questions, you don't know what you're talking about.

1.) If you're talking about Lincoln's supply ships, those were a Navy assault flotilla fitted with troop transports and warships. They were sent 'supposedly to provision the fort with food only, but that was just more of Lincoln's lies. South Carolina learned about the lies and the ships coming to reinforce Sumter. Thus the need to fire on Sumter now before the ships arrived. Which they did.

The ships were under a Captain Fox, who was bold when he and Lincoln discussed this plan. But once he got to Charleston Harbor, the firing on Sumter had already begun. And he got cold feet and refused to go in and mix it up in the battle...to everyone's surprise.

Thus these ships sent by Lincoln didn't get fired upon. The battle of Sumter was already underway.

2.) If you're talking about Buchannan sending the 'Star Of The West', that was also done deceptively, portraying itself with food only. Which was more Yankee bullshit. The South learned it was picking up troops also to land at Sumter. It was a deceptive ship, and would fly a deceptive flag in hopes of fooling the Southernors.

"The plan called for utmost secrecy. The ship would depart from New York as if on one of its regular voyages but would pick up two hundred well-armed U.S. Army regulars at Governor's Island in New York Harbor before heading south. Telegrams were to be avoided for fear of interception, with all telegraphy between Governor's Island and surrounding cities suspended for the duration of the voyage.

"Whenever the ship came in sight of another vessel, the soldiers were to go below decks; they would hide there as well when the ship approached Charleston. The plan was kept secret even from Interior Secretary Thompson out of the quite reasonable concern that he would reveal it to his Carolina contracts." (The Demon Of Unrest, Erik Larson, Crown Publishing Group, 2024, p. 181)

Thus the deceptively disguised vessel was fired upon because it was coming not to provide food for Sumter, but troop reinforcements. The lies of the Yankees just don't stop. The plan went to hell and the Southernors fired warning shot first, but then when that was ignored they fired on the ship itself.

None of this caused Anderson at Sumter to fire at the South Carolina land batteries. Which meant they didn't fire on Sumter, thus the war would not start due to this debacle of a mission. 'The Star Of The West' turned back.

So, you see? Probably not. Your statement, 'they did attack the resupply vessel', as though that meant something, meant nothing. No matter which administration it was done under. All was deceit.

Quantrill