New Website on the American Civil War

[mikegriffith1]

For those who might be interested, in the last few days I have added a great deal of content to my new Civil War website. I created the site and posted this thread on January 19. The site now has more linked articles and videos and 13 more linked thumbnails to recommended books that present information that supports my view of the war.

The American Civil War: An Alternative View

 

[Quantrill]

Where in the Bill of Rights does it say a state can secede if it's having a hissy fit?



Um, no, they didn't hang any of the big traitors. They hung a few low level guys, I'm sure, but what we didn't have was accountability, like you had for the Nazis and Japanese after WWII. (Oh, wait, Mike thinks that it was horrible that there were trials in Tokyo to hold the Japanese accountable.)



Nope, Andrew Johnson's big goal in life was to not hold anyone accountable for the war. It's why he's considered one of the worst presidents. He pretty much lost the peace after Lincoln won the war.




they didn't put him on trial that was the point. Nor Lee, nor Stephens, nor any of the other traitors.

I already told you. Article X. Oh, sorry...that X is the Roman numeral 10. I forgot who I was addressing.

They didn't hang more Confederate leaders because civilian courts took over once more instead of Lincoln's military tribunals. They tried to hang Jeff Davis but once the Yankee lawyers started preparing the case for treason, they realized they had no case. And worse, because this had been so publicized, they saw that if Davis case goes to trial, the North would be seen as the guilty party. The North would be seen as traitor. The truth would be read throughout the world. So, through a real dog and pony show that would make Wringly Bros. envious, they just opened his cell door and said go home. After that, they couldn't try anyone else.

Just think of it. All that bragging the North did about hanging Jeff Davis, and then they have to eat shit. Trying to again hide their tracks. Liars trying to hide their lies.

Who executed John Brown? Did you learn anything? Probably not.

Quantrill

 

[JoeB131]

For those who might be interested, in the last few days I have added a great deal of content to my new Civil War website. I created the site and posted this thread on January 19. The site now has more linked articles and videos and 13 more linked thumbnails to recommended books that present information that supports my view of the war.

yes, all the batshittery one can handle...

Lincoln was a space alien.

 

[JoeB131]

I already told you. Article X. Oh, sorry...that X is the Roman numeral 10. I forgot who I was addressing.

Quote the exact text (don't worry, it isn't there.)

They didn't hang more Confederate leaders because civilian courts took over once more instead of Lincoln's military tribunals. They tried to hang Jeff Davis but once the Yankee lawyers started preparing the case for treason, they realized they had no case. And worse, because this had been so publicized, they saw that if Davis case goes to trial, the North would be seen as the guilty party. The North would be seen as traitor. The truth would be read throughout the world. So, through a real dog and pony show that would make Wringly Bros. envious, they just opened his cell door and said go home. After that, they couldn't try anyone else.

Um, no. The world would have been fine with Davis at the end of a rope.

Just make up the jury of civil war vets and men who lost sons in the war, and presto, Davis gets that well-deserved necktie party.

Instead, Johnson gave all the Confederates pardons and dragged his feet on implementing the Reconstruction Amendments. It's why Congress finally got fed up with his bullshit and impeached him.

Just think of it. All that bragging the North did about hanging Jeff Davis, and then they have to eat shit. Trying to again hide their tracks. Liars trying to hide their lies.

Again, thanks to Andrew Johnson, we won the war and lost the peace. There was plenty to hang Davis, Lee, Forrest, and all the other traitors on.

Who executed John Brown? Did you learn anything? Probably not.

You mean after Buchanan the Feckless turned him over to be murdered?

 

[JoeB131]

Let's take apart Mikey's crazy cover page for his batshit website, shall we?

There is a view of the American Civil War that rarely gets a hearing. It is the view that the Radical Republicans played a major role in causing the Civil War, and that their treachery delayed the end of the war by at least one year, causing the needless deaths of thousands of Union and Confederate soldiers.

You mean that after thousands of men had died, they weren't going to give the Confederate bastards what they wanted? Hey, guy, we saw what happens when you don't finish a war in World War I. Which is why they demanded unconditional surrender in World War II. You win wars by completely destroying the enemy and then taking retribution on the enemy leaders. PERIOD.

The fact is, when Lincoln was killed, Andrew Johnson was quick to give the South nearly everything they wanted. We ended up with Jim Crow, Debt Peonage (which was just reinstitution of slavery), and another 100 years of inequality.


It is the view that the war could have been avoided if the Radical Republicans had not recklessly stirred up hate and fear. It is the view that a compromise to end secession could have been achieved in the Senate if both the moderate Republicans and the Radical Republicans had not blocked it.

Meh, not really. At best, it would have kicked the can down the road. the problem is that the Civil War was not the first time that the country threatened to break up over the slavery issue. Congress kept appeasing the South, and we know how well appeasement works.

It is the view that Radical Reconstruction was excessively harsh and caused decades of bitterness and violence, an outcome that could have been avoided with the Reconstruction plan that Abraham Lincoln had begun to implement before his death.

Nope. Reconstruction wasn't harsh enough. We should have hung the traitors, and then make sure that EVERY history book demonized them to this very day.


This is not to say that Southern pro-slavery hardliners did not play a major role in causing secession and the war--they most certainly did--but the Radical Republicans also played a large role in causing those tragic events.

No, guy. The notion that one human being shouldn't own another is not radical. By 1861, most of the civilized world had abolished slavery.

Before the Civil War began, the majority of Americans favored some kind of compromise on the issue of slavery, including slavery in the territories. The Crittenden Compromise, for example, appears to have been supported by a majority of people in the North and the South. In the 1860 presidential election, the three candidates who supported a compromise on slavery received 60.1% of the popular vote. The issue of slavery's extension into the territories was largely a phantom, phony issue anyway.

Well, then, they should have agreed on a single candidate; they might have won. The expansion of slavery into the territories was hardly a phantom issue, as the Kansas-Nebraska Act proved with the Bleeding Kansas. The Confederates realized that if any new states entered the Union, they would be free states.

Few history books tell the whole story about how the Radical Republicans prevented an early end to the war, despised Lincoln, opposed his reelection, cheered his death, and abandoned his reasonable and moderate plan for Reconstruction.

And now you're moving from Lost-Cause apologism to batshit crazy. The thing was, Lincoln's death cemented him as a national hero. He'd have probably had a harder time had he survived.

Indeed, most history books portray the Radical Republicans as enlightened heroes, while painting moderate Northerners as misguided, weak, and indifferent to the evils of slavery. They also downplay the fact that the four Southern states that seceded after the Fort Sumter incident initially firmly rejected secession and only joined the Confederacy because they believed it was wrong to maintain the Union by force.

Yup, that's some crazy talk there, Mikey. What, what a radical view. One human being shouldn't own another. Why, that's just crazy talk.

Except every other civilized country had already abolished slavery by 1861, except for the US and Brazil.

 

[rightwinger]

Lincoln historians of all time, makes a strong case that Lincoln would not have used force against the Confederacy if the Confederates had not bombarded and captured Fort Sumter

At the time of Sumter, Lincoln was still negotiating with southern states offering whatever they wanted to preserve the Union. He offered to continue slavery indefinitely

But the southern hotheads won out and attacked Sumter.
Lincoln could not ignore it and the South paid a heavy price

 

[JoeB131]

Just for reference, this is what Mikey thinks we should have compromised on.

 

[JoeB131]

At the time of Sumter, Lincoln was still negotiating with southern states offering whatever they wanted to preserve the Union. He offered to continue slavery indefinitely

But the southern hotheads won out and attacked Sumter.
Lincoln could not ignore it and the South paid a heavy price

Exactly, it would be like if After the Alamo, we should have given Texas back to Mexico.
Or after Pearl Harbor, we should have just let Japan have Hawaii.
Or after 9/11, we should have just cut off aid to Saudi Arabia and Israel

you have to be willing to "compromise" after you are attacked by radical crazies.

 

[rightwinger]

Do you believe the Founding Fathers intended for slavery to perish?

The founding fathers knew slavery was wrong. Even Jefferson and Washington. But in order to form a nation that included the South, they appeased the southern states and allowed slavery.

They intended slavery to time out and banned the importation of slaves after 1808.
But Eli Whitney invented the Cotton Gin and cotton became a massive economic engine that needed slaves to function

 

[mikegriffith1]

Another key point that is usually ignored in our history books is that the four Upper South states gave every indication that they would remain in the Union as long as the North did not use force against the Confederacy. When those states--VA, AR, TN, NC--voted on secession during the first wave of session, they rejected session by wide margins, and this was when secession was largely based on concerns related to slavery.

VA and TN in particular included large regions that were decidedly pro-Union and anti-secession. Virginian Robert E. Lee stridently opposed secession.

But after Jefferson Davis made the idiotic decision to bombard and occupy Fort Sumter, this inflamed Northern public opinion, played right into the hands of the Radical Republicans, and made it impossible for Lincoln to resist using force against the Confederacy.

Before the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter, an increasing number of Radical Republicans were voicing the suspicion that Lincoln and Seward were not going to use force to reunite the Union as long as the Confederacy did not attack any federal installations or invade Northern territory. One Radical Republican voiced this suspicion on the Senate floor in an exchange with Senator Douglas, a leading moderate who was calling for calm, patience, and compromise.

 

[Quantrill]

Quote the exact text (don't worry, it isn't there.)



Um, no. The world would have been fine with Davis at the end of a rope.

Just make up the jury of civil war vets and men who lost sons in the war, and presto, Davis gets that well-deserved necktie party.

Instead, Johnson gave all the Confederates pardons and dragged his feet on implementing the Reconstruction Amendments. It's why Congress finally got fed up with his bullshit and impeached him.




Again, thanks to Andrew Johnson, we won the war and lost the peace. There was plenty to hang Davis, Lee, Forrest, and all the other traitors on.


You mean after Buchanan the Feckless turned him over to be murdered?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the people." Article X of the Bill of Rights.

Do you see that? 'Delegated' Do you know what 'delegated' means? It means to allow authority over to another to represent you. It doesn't mean 'surrendered'. What one delegates, one can take back. When the Southern States seceded, they took back what they had delegated to the Federal government. That is called, secession.

Your opinion of Davis means nothing. As I said, to try Davis would be to reveal that the North are the traitors. They couldn't hang Davis until they found him guilty. They couldn't find him guilty which is why they had to eat shit and let him go. As I said, your opinion means nothing. This was the advice of the Yankee lawyers chosen to prosecute Davis.

Again, who executed John Brown?

Quantrill

 

[ding]

Before the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter, an increasing number of Radical Republicans were voicing the suspicion that Lincoln and Seward were not going to use force to reunite the Union as long as the Confederacy did not attack any federal installations or invade Northern territory. One Radical Republican voiced this suspicion on the Senate floor in an exchange with Senator Douglas, a leading moderate who was calling for calm, patience, and compromise.

It seems to me those "radical" republicans got the war they wanted buy not the way they wanted it or when they wanted it. So how much do you think they influenced the historical events? I say not much at all. Lincoln did it the right way for the right reason. He cared more about preserving the union than he did about ending slavery. As far as I'm, concerned, Lincoln did his job.

 

[JoeB131]

Another key point that is usually ignored in our history books is that the four Upper South states gave every indication that they would remain in the Union as long as the North did not use force against the Confederacy. When those states--VA, AR, TN, NC--voted on secession during the first wave of session, they rejected session by wide margins, and this was when secession was largely based on concerns related to slavery.

Well, that's kind of blackmail, isn't it? The point was, a number of slave states realized secession was a bad idea - KY, MO, MD - and stayed in the Union. (Although Lincoln arresting some of the loudmouths in MD was kind of cool.)

VA and TN in particular included large regions that were decidedly pro-Union and anti-secession. Virginian Robert E. Lee stridently opposed secession.

Yet he still led the Confederate Army. Treason.

But after Jefferson Davis made the idiotic decision to bombard and occupy Fort Sumter, this inflamed Northern public opinion, played right into the hands of the Radical Republicans, and made it impossible for Lincoln to resist using force against the Confederacy.

So what's your point here? That you think that the issue could have been negotiated away? The problem is, the North had been mollifying the South for decades while the rest of the world was sensibly abolishing slavery.

Before the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter, an increasing number of Radical Republicans were voicing the suspicion that Lincoln and Seward were not going to use force to reunite the Union as long as the Confederacy did not attack any federal installations or invade Northern territory. One Radical Republican voiced this suspicion on the Senate floor in an exchange with Senator Douglas, a leading moderate who was calling for calm, patience, and compromise.

So he was the Neville Chamberlain of his day?

Tell me, what do you think would happen if Walz declared that MN was joining Canada and ordered his National Guard to fire on ICE Nazis? Do you think anyone would be talking about "calm, Patience, and compromise"?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the people." Article X of the Bill of Rights.

Do you see that? 'Delegated' Do you know what 'delegated' means? It means to allow authority over to another to represent you. It doesn't mean 'surrendered'. What one delegates, one can take back. When the Southern States seceded, they took back what they had delegated to the Federal government. That is called, secession.

Um, no, I don't see the word "Secession" anywhere in there. The point is that they only get the powers NOT delegated to the Federal Government. The important powers still remain part of the Federal government, so no secession is allowed.

Your opinion of Davis means nothing. As I said, to try Davis would be to reveal that the North are the traitors. They couldn't hang Davis until they found him guilty. They couldn't find him guilty which is why they had to eat shit and let him go. As I said, your opinion means nothing. This was the advice of the Yankee lawyers chosen to prosecute Davis.

They could have found him guilty, easily.

The reason they didn't put him on trial was because the North went back to it's playbook of mollifying the South.

We are still paying for that today.

On the other hand, after World War 2 they hanged the top Nazis and Japanese war criminals (the latter of which makes Mikey Sad) and made sure they knew they did a bad thing.

Germany and Japan have been model global citizens since then.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Guy, are you ******* serious? McClellan was what a general should never be. TIMID. He had an overwhelming advantage over the South, and he dithered around Virginia for years, most because being a slave-owning POS himself, he didn't want to kill other Slave-owning POS.

McClellan was a great organizer and trainer; he sucked as a field commander.

 

[Quantrill]

Um, no, I don't see the word "Secession" anywhere in there. The point is that they only get the powers NOT delegated to the Federal Government. The important powers still remain part of the Federal government, so no secession is allowed.



They could have found him guilty, easily.

The reason they didn't put him on trial was because the North went back to it's playbook of mollifying the South.

We are still paying for that today.

On the other hand, after World War 2 they hanged the top Nazis and Japanese war criminals (the latter of which makes Mikey Sad) and made sure they knew they did a bad thing.

Germany and Japan have been model global citizens since then.

Um...you don't need the word 'secession' used to identify secession. Once you 'resume' the powers you delegated, that is secession. The Federal government no longer has any power over you. You are no longer part of the 'United States'. That is secession. Just like when you say you 'take back' or say 'resume'. Same thing.

That's what you say, but you're full of shit. And you have been found a liar. So, what you say doesn't mean much.

No, that is more bull shit from you. They didn't put Davis on trial because they couldn't prove him guilty. And the trial would prove the North are the traitors. Which they are. How does it feel...traitor. How does the truth taste...traitor. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth doesn't it. So bad, you aint got the balls to own up to it. Yankees are such cowards.

Who executed John Brown...traitor? You ain't got the balls to own up to your lie you were caught in. See why I have said, the War Between The States is the most lied about war in history. And the U.S. is the one doing the lying. To the degree that people like you can't believe the truth any more, you must hold on to your precious lies. Glory, glory.... hallelujah. His lies are marching on. Just gives you goose bumps don't it.

Quantrill

 

[rightwinger]

McClellan was a great organizer and trainer; he sucked as a field commander.

He ran against Lincoln in 1864

 

[rightwinger]

See why I have said, the War Between The States is the most lied about war in history.

Lost Cause rhetoric made sure about that

War was not about slavery
Lee and Davis were heroes….Lincoln and Grant were evil
Most confederates did not own slaves

 

[JoeB131]

Um...you don't need the word 'secession' used to identify secession. Once you 'resume' the powers you delegated, that is secession. The Federal government no longer has any power over you. You are no longer part of the 'United States'. That is secession. Just like when you say you 'take back' or say 'resume'. Same thing.

Nope. Doesn't say "secession". In fact, there was no option in the Constitution to leave the union.

No, that is more bull shit from you. They didn't put Davis on trial because they couldn't prove him guilty. And the trial would prove the North are the traitors. Which they are. How does it feel...traitor. How does the truth taste...traitor. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth doesn't it. So bad, you aint got the balls to own up to it. Yankees are such cowards.

The guy was as guilty as a cat in a canary cage. They didn't put him on trial because Johnson was a feckless idiot who thought if you appeased the South, things would go back to the way they were before the war.

Who executed John Brown...traitor?

Buchanan handed him over to Virginia knowing they'd murder him. When the man was a HERO!

 

[JoeB131]

He ran against Lincoln in 1864

And massively lost against in an election Lincoln didn't think he could win.

Probably because he ran on a "Surrender monkey" platform when the North was winning.

 

[rightwinger]

And massively lost against in an election Lincoln didn't think he could win.

Probably because he ran on a "Surrender monkey" platform when the North was winning.

Early in 1864, McClellan would have probably won. The people were tired of war.

But Grants and Sherman’s advances by the end of 1864 allowed Lincoln to win