My revised position on the Bundy Ranch crisis

[tyroneweaver]

neat, being beloved is irrelevant in breaking the law.

oh I get it, you're a state brand inspector

not paying your fees and ignoring a federal judge is breaking the law moron.
i know facts are hard for people of your ilk.

dang, now I'm a ilk and a moron to boot I don't know who my real parents were either so I guess that makes me a bastard to. LOL

 

[tyroneweaver]

Bundy is neither legally nor morally right.

He is a welfare cheat using our federal lands for his selfish gain.

This is the wrong horse for the militia to ride.

We all know how you hate people on welfare........

I don't hate anybody. But I do dislike when people cheat on welfare, and Bundy is doing just that and hiding behind nonsense.

Oh come on jake it's well documented through the whole Mormon cumminity how much church welfare you get

 

[Plasmaball]

oh I get it, you're a state brand inspector

not paying your fees and ignoring a federal judge is breaking the law moron.
i know facts are hard for people of your ilk.

dang, now I'm a ilk and a moron to boot I don't know who my real parents were either so I guess that makes me a bastard to. LOL

deflect all you want..You have nothing as per usual. Im really tired of these low educated people with an internet connection these days.

 

[tyroneweaver]

When I started reading about this, after seeing the sensational footage of the confrontation and the "militia men" references to those who are heeding Bundy's call, I immediately thought that Bundy might be a Mormon. And Fox states that he is a descendant (Nevada officials blast feds over treatment of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy | Fox News) which means he's somewhat of an outlier, probably doesn't attend services anymore. But his heritage is speaking loud and clear.

This explains a lot of how this thing is exponentially escalating to violence. The original Mormons who settled Utah would viciously hang any federal agent who showed up to talk to them about statehood. The militia men in the Rocky Mountains are a tight bunch with their own network. Bundy can pretend that these guys just saw it in the news and came to his aid. But I'm from that part of the country and know better.

Having said all that, my two cents, congratulations TemplarK, on a good post and your discussion of the facts.

my ancestors used to hide high Mormon officials from the federalies in their hay barn, but I don't recall any federals being "vicsiously hanged"
That seems a stretch

Where did they do this? Illinois? New York? Not Utah or Nevada. No need. That's why they migrated there, because they were driven out of Illinois.

And since they were run out on a rail, yes they killed any federal agent who came to either sign them up for statehood or try to collect taxes.

In case you missed my other post, read it from Mormon lips about another nasty transgression: The Mountain Meadow Massacre:

This month marks the 150th anniversary of a terrible episode in the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. On September 11, 1857, some 50 to 60 local militiamen in southern Utah, aided by American Indian allies, massacred about 120 emigrants who were traveling by wagon to California. The horrific crime, which spared only 17 children age six and under, occurred in a highland valley called the Mountain Meadows, roughly 35 miles southwest of Cedar City. The victims, most of them from Arkansas, were on their way to California with dreams of a bright future.

For a century and a half the Mountain Meadows Massacre has shocked and distressed those who have learned of it. The tragedy has deeply grieved the victims’ relatives, burdened the perpetrators’ descendants and Church members generally with sorrow and feelings of collective guilt, unleashed criticism on the Church, and raised painful, difficult questions. How could this have happened? How could members of the Church have participated in such a crime?

Two facts make the case even more difficult to fathom. First, nothing that any of the emigrants purportedly did or said, even if all of it were true, came close to justifying their deaths. Second, the large majority of perpetrators led decent, nonviolent lives before and after the massacre.

As is true with any historical episode, comprehending the events of September 11, 1857, requires understanding the conditions of the time, only a brief summary of which can be shared in the few pages of this magazine article. For a more complete, documented account of the event, readers are referred to the forthcoming book Massacre at Mountain Meadows. 1""""""


They are aa no less scrupulous or honorable than your friendly, local Mafia.

It happend in Utah 13th east and 72nd south

Th Thatchr party and the Mountain Meadow Massacre is not federals being vicsiously hanged

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

My revised position on the Bundy Ranch crisis

You’re likely aware of the fact that many of your fellow rightists continue to propagate the Bundy ‘land seizure’ lie, some in this very thread.

Granted, you’re not responsible for the actions of other conservatives, but this should give you pause with regard to the propensity of most on the right to indeed contrive non-issues into ‘controversies’ for some perceived partisan gain.

And what’s even more disturbing is that once the ‘controversy’ has in fact been proven to be a lie, such as the Bundy ‘land seizure’ story, many conservatives will continue with the canard nonetheless.

Are these indeed the kind of people with whom you wish to associate.

 

[natstew]

Okay, just to illustrate how fair the Federal Government is:

My Ancestor, John Stewart, who was married to an Indian woman, served in the First Seminole War under Andrew Jackson. For his services he was awarded 160 acres of land along the Wakulla River in North Florida for his services. After he occupied the land, the Territorial Courts ruled that it belonged to the Apalachicola timber and Land Co. as part of the Forbes Purchase and took it from him, house and all. The Company had traded hatchets, axes, guns, powder, shot, iron kettles, blankets, and worthless glass beads to the local Indians for land that the Indians had no evidence of even owning. The newly established Territorial Court was bought and owned by the Forbes Co.
When it involves land and pits the Government against private citizens, I'll stand with the private citizens every time.

Unfortunately, this is not 1865. It happened a long time ago and it wasn't fair, but nothing can be done about it now. Bundy doesn't own the land. The courts have repeatedly said he does not have a right to graze cattle on the land. He's breaking today's law. That's all that counts. Try going out on the highway with a 1921 car and driving at 25 miles an hour. You'll get ticketed. Yesterday's laws don't apply today.

Did you miss my point? The Government is a necessary evil, that's why it is limited in our Constitution, even though those limitations are ignored by politicians, this Regime moreso than all previous.
The Government screws up almost everything it touches!!

 

[mudwhistle]

Okay, just to illustrate how fair the Federal Government is:

My Ancestor, John Stewart, who was married to an Indian woman, served in the First Seminole War under Andrew Jackson. For his services he was awarded 160 acres of land along the Wakulla River in North Florida for his services. After he occupied the land, the Territorial Courts ruled that it belonged to the Apalachicola timber and Land Co. as part of the Forbes Purchase and took it from him, house and all. The Company had traded hatchets, axes, guns, powder, shot, iron kettles, blankets, and worthless glass beads to the local Indians for land that the Indians had no evidence of even owning. The newly established Territorial Court was bought and owned by the Forbes Co.
When it involves land and pits the Government against private citizens, I'll stand with the private citizens every time.

Unfortunately, this is not 1865. It happened a long time ago and it wasn't fair, but nothing can be done about it now. Bundy doesn't own the land. The courts have repeatedly said he does not have a right to graze cattle on the land. He's breaking today's law. That's all that counts. Try going out on the highway with a 1921 car and driving at 25 miles an hour. You'll get ticketed. Yesterday's laws don't apply today.

He's breaking the law.

Well those laws can be enforced only at the discretion of this White House.

Ask the 11 million illegals that Joe Biden claims already are citizens......

The government has said that they have wide discretion on what laws they will enforce.

Going after white ranchers seems to be a priority these days.......

 

[Esmeralda]

Okay, just to illustrate how fair the Federal Government is:

My Ancestor, John Stewart, who was married to an Indian woman, served in the First Seminole War under Andrew Jackson. For his services he was awarded 160 acres of land along the Wakulla River in North Florida for his services. After he occupied the land, the Territorial Courts ruled that it belonged to the Apalachicola timber and Land Co. as part of the Forbes Purchase and took it from him, house and all. The Company had traded hatchets, axes, guns, powder, shot, iron kettles, blankets, and worthless glass beads to the local Indians for land that the Indians had no evidence of even owning. The newly established Territorial Court was bought and owned by the Forbes Co.
When it involves land and pits the Government against private citizens, I'll stand with the private citizens every time.

Unfortunately, this is not 1865. It happened a long time ago and it wasn't fair, but nothing can be done about it now. Bundy doesn't own the land. The courts have repeatedly said he does not have a right to graze cattle on the land. He's breaking today's law. That's all that counts. Try going out on the highway with a 1921 car and driving at 25 miles an hour. You'll get ticketed. Yesterday's laws don't apply today.

He's breaking the law.

Well those laws can be enforced only at the discretion of this White House.

Ask the 11 million illegals that Joe Biden claims already are citizens......

The government has said that they have wide discretion on what laws they will enforce.

Going after white ranchers seems to be a priority these days.......

LOL This problem has been going on for decades; he's been in court repeatedly. During GW'S ADMINISTRATION TOO. GW had discretion to help this guy too. He didn't .. ..your hero did not help this guy. Now, suddenly it's Obama's fault. LMAO. You folks who blame everything on Earth on Obama are so transparent and ridiculous. Too hilariously funny.

 

[mudwhistle]

Unfortunately, this is not 1865. It happened a long time ago and it wasn't fair, but nothing can be done about it now. Bundy doesn't own the land. The courts have repeatedly said he does not have a right to graze cattle on the land. He's breaking today's law. That's all that counts. Try going out on the highway with a 1921 car and driving at 25 miles an hour. You'll get ticketed. Yesterday's laws don't apply today.

He's breaking the law.

Well those laws can be enforced only at the discretion of this White House.

Ask the 11 million illegals that Joe Biden claims already are citizens......

The government has said that they have wide discretion on what laws they will enforce.

Going after white ranchers seems to be a priority these days.......

LOL This problem has been going on for decades; he's been in court repeatedly. During GW'S ADMINISTRATION TOO. GW had discretion to help this guy too. He didn't .. ..your hero did not help this guy. Now, suddenly it's Obama's fault. LMAO. You folks who blame everything on Earth on Obama are so transparent and ridiculous. Too hilariously funny.

I'm sure that's what you've been told....

Don't believe everything you hear.

Hundreds of militia are supposedly heading to the Bundy ranch to monitor the siutation and give support. They are coming from several states.

Bundy’s son said that I guess this morning 20 cowboys went out on the closed area and rounded up 30 cows. They ran into some BLM guys but since they outnumbered the little thugs they couldn’t stop them from taking their cattle back.

Its calving season so the BLM guys are out there running the cattle real hard and separating new calves from the mothers so the calves are likely just laying under a bush dying.

The BLM has about 130 head of cattle that they tried to ship off to Utah to auction. Utah said no dice and won’t let them in so they went to another auctioneer in another state but there has been so much blowback that the other auctioneer has refused to do it.

IMO this is a test case to see how much carp people will put up with. If they manage to do this then they will do it all over the country.

53 posted on Thursday, April 10, 2014 12:34:23 PM by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.) Ranch Riot!! Bundy Ranch Protesters Tasered by Federal Agents and Attacked by K9's.

 

[Katzndogz]

Sorry but cows eating desert forage is not welfare. After all, no taxpayer money is going to the maintenance of desert scrub. If anything, the cows are doing for free what the Bureau of Land Management hires goat herds to do all the time. Bundy should get his fees offset by the value of the cows work in wildfire suppression.

 

[Esmeralda]

He's breaking the law.

Well those laws can be enforced only at the discretion of this White House.

Ask the 11 million illegals that Joe Biden claims already are citizens......

The government has said that they have wide discretion on what laws they will enforce.

Going after white ranchers seems to be a priority these days.......

LOL This problem has been going on for decades; he's been in court repeatedly. During GW'S ADMINISTRATION TOO. GW had discretion to help this guy too. He didn't .. ..your hero did not help this guy. Now, suddenly it's Obama's fault. LMAO. You folks who blame everything on Earth on Obama are so transparent and ridiculous. Too hilariously funny.

I'm sure that's what you've been told....

Don't believe everything you hear.

Hundreds of militia are supposedly heading to the Bundy ranch to monitor the siutation and give support. They are coming from several states.

Bundy’s son said that I guess this morning 20 cowboys went out on the closed area and rounded up 30 cows. They ran into some BLM guys but since they outnumbered the little thugs they couldn’t stop them from taking their cattle back.

Its calving season so the BLM guys are out there running the cattle real hard and separating new calves from the mothers so the calves are likely just laying under a bush dying.

The BLM has about 130 head of cattle that they tried to ship off to Utah to auction. Utah said no dice and won’t let them in so they went to another auctioneer in another state but there has been so much blowback that the other auctioneer has refused to do it.

IMO this is a test case to see how much carp people will put up with. If they manage to do this then they will do it all over the country.

53 posted on Thursday, April 10, 2014 12:34:23 PM by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose o f a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.) Ranch Riot!! Bundy Ranch Protesters Tasered by Federal Agents and Attacked by K9's.

It's not what I've 'been told' or what I believe, it is in several articles about this situation. This is not a new situation. He's been in and out of court for decades. This didn't just suddenly spring up. Your great hero, GW Bush could have helped him long ago, but didn't. This has nothing to do with some new approach toward 'white people' by the current administration. The fact you like to swallow such propaganda simply illustrates where you are coming from. The reason it has escalated to where it is right now is that he has threatened violent resistance to having the law enforced. Criminals who threaten law enforcement with violence are always met with the same show of strength the government is now showing. If it was an inner-city black drug dealer threatening the government you’d be against him. Because this is a white cattle rancher who is the law breaker, you are on his side.

 

[R.C. Christian]

Okay. I never said I was perfect, but even I know when to change my views to reality. I promised myself I would never be so stubborn as to be blinded to the facts. Mr. Bundy did break the law. He lost two court cases which mandated he pack up and leave. In 1993, the Federal Government chose to designate the Bunkerville Range area as a habitat for an endangered species of desert tortoise. They told him that he could not have more than 150 head of cattle on that land at any point in time. Yet he chose to continue letting all 1000 of his cows graze on the land. According to the government, he now owes $1.1 million in back grazing fees.

Let's also get another thing straight here. He doesn't own the land. He owned (past tense) the grazing rights to the Bunkerville Allotment. Under the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934, the government can revoke grazing rights for a set of reasons, including but not limited to circumstances which deplete the grazing area. He claims "preemptive rights" over the land in question, but as I see it, I tend to disagree. Being a Native American, I am inclined to believe that the Native American tribes who lived in that area for well over 3,000 years have a "preeminent right" to that land, not Mr. Bundy, or the Federal Government; but I digress.

In 1998, Clark County purchased the grazing rights to this 250 square mile swath of land and chose to retire them once again for the sake of a desert tortoise. Mr. Bundy contends that only the State of Nevada can solve this issue since it does indeed own the grazing rights. He would be correct. But he also did make threatening statements to government officials. That still doesn't change the fact he broke the law. That also does not excuse the government from its behavior either.

I cannot ignore how the government is handling this issue. They have assaulted protesters and set up "free speech" zones for these protesters. They proceeded to taser Bundy's son in the fracas. My support for Mr. Bundy doesn't hinge on his misconduct, but on how he is being treated by the government. He could have simply up and left, but he didn't. The government could have simply conducted this operation peacefully, not in a heavy handed manner, and without inflaming the surrounding populous plus ultimately Americans across the country. I think both the Federal Government and more ultimately the State of Nevada hold the fate of this entire conflict in their hands.

I am also inclined to believe that if further, more intense violence ensues i.e. gun violence, this could be the exact excuse that Democrats and our President would use to pass some sort of gun control legislation in Congress. Militias are falling for the bait, and any way you slice it, this won't be good for anyone.

That is all. Discuss this as you please.

Bundy's son was tasered after he obstructed oncoming traffic, kicked a guard dog and refused to follow a lawful order. The police would have been justified shooting him.

But thanks for at least realizing Bundy was at fault.

There are a lot things I could say here and some I can't despite my absolute hatred for you in particular on this site, but If were to say something like "I'd like to kick your ass in" then you'd probably get turned on and go rape a kid or something, and I just can't let that happen punk. So you have a nice day boot licker.

 

[mudwhistle]

Sorry but cows eating desert forage is not welfare. After all, no taxpayer money is going to the maintenance of desert scrub. If anything, the cows are doing for free what the Bureau of Land Management hires goat herds to do all the time. Bundy should get his fees offset by the value of the cows work in wildfire suppression.

They're grazing on the grass from the Spring rains. That's why these assholes want to do this now.

Obama and his henchmen cut off the water supply to many parts of the West claiming it's because of Climate Change, and they need the water for some smelt they're trying to protect.

Bull shit.

 

[mudwhistle]

Brownshirters doing what they do.......

 

[JakeStarkey]

We all know how you hate people on welfare........

I don't hate anybody. But I do dislike when people cheat on welfare, and Bundy is doing just that and hiding behind nonsense.

Oh come on jake it's well documented through the whole Mormon cumminity how much church welfare you get

I get three times or more your annual wages in retirement, son, and I have never been a Mormon.

Bundy is a Mormon, and he is cheating the taxpayer.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have known Hafens, Bundys, MacArthurs, Snows, Leavitts, Judds, Hardys, Pratts from Las Vegas to Bunkerville to Enterprise to St George and back. Almost all of them are active or jack Mormons. Many of them are decent people.

But a few are far right reactionaries who don't have the brains God gave a goose.

Bundy should be served on Goose Day to Gander, Mrs Goose, and all the little goslings.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Brownshirters doing what they do.......

Not only a difference of kind not degree, but also a revelation that your logic is swiss cheese.

 

[Dot Com]

mudwhistle killed the thread Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tinydancer]

It's not every day you get to see the feds come in with 200 armed men and 9 helicopters and spending 3 million dollars to collect on a one million dollar debt.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Okay. I never said I was perfect, but even I know when to change my views to reality. I promised myself I would never be so stubborn as to be blinded to the facts. Mr. Bundy did break the law. He lost two court cases which mandated he pack up and leave. In 1993, the Federal Government chose to designate the Bunkerville Range area as a habitat for an endangered species of desert tortoise. They told him that he could not have more than 150 head of cattle on that land at any point in time. Yet he chose to continue letting all 1000 of his cows graze on the land. According to the government, he now owes $1.1 million in back grazing fees.

Let's also get another thing straight here. He doesn't own the land. He owned (past tense) the grazing rights to the Bunkerville Allotment. Under the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934, the government can revoke grazing rights for a set of reasons, including but not limited to circumstances which deplete the grazing area. He claims "preemptive rights" over the land in question, but as I see it, I tend to disagree. Being a Native American, I am inclined to believe that the Native American tribes who lived in that area for well over 3,000 years have a "preeminent right" to that land, not Mr. Bundy, or the Federal Government; but I digress.

In 1998, Clark County purchased the grazing rights to this 250 square mile swath of land and chose to retire them once again for the sake of a desert tortoise. Mr. Bundy contends that only the State of Nevada can solve this issue since it does indeed own the grazing rights. He would be correct. But he also did make threatening statements to government officials. That still doesn't change the fact he broke the law. That also does not excuse the government from its behavior either.

I cannot ignore how the government is handling this issue. They have assaulted protesters and set up "free speech" zones for these protesters. They proceeded to taser Bundy's son in the fracas. My support for Mr. Bundy doesn't hinge on his misconduct, but on how he is being treated by the government. He could have simply up and left, but he didn't. The government could have simply conducted this operation peacefully, not in a heavy handed manner, and without inflaming the surrounding populous plus ultimately Americans across the country. I think both the Federal Government and more ultimately the State of Nevada hold the fate of this entire conflict in their hands.

I am also inclined to believe that if further, more intense violence ensues i.e. gun violence, this could be the exact excuse that Democrats and our President would use to pass some sort of gun control legislation in Congress. Militias are falling for the bait, and any way you slice it, this won't be good for anyone.

That is all. Discuss this as you please.

I also revised my position yesterday, TK. Same reason. If we don't obey the law of the land we are acting in lawlessness and that is wrong. As I understand it there is a standing court order. That pretty much settles it unless he wants to challenge it in court. But inviting thousands of people out there to join in the stand off is wrong. What if these people get hurt? Does the rancher want that on his conscience? I wouldn't want it on mine. The situation seems to be escalating and it is very disturbing to me. Even if his rights were violated the place to settle this is in a court of law. For the sake of others he must rethink this. imo.

Wouldn't be the first time a federal judge ruled incorrectly to help the rich squash the little people under their thumb.

The BLM’s official reason for encircling the Bundy family with sniper teams and helicopters was to protect the endangered desert tortoise, which the agency has previously been killing in mass due to “budget constraints.”

“A tortoise isn’t the reason why BLM is harassing a 67 year-old rancher; they want his land,” journalist Dana Loesch wrote. “The tortoise wasn’t of concern when [U.S. Senator] Harry Reid worked with BLM to literally change the boundaries of the tortoise’s habitat to accommodate the development of his top donor, Harvey Whittemore.”

“Reid is accused of using the new BLM chief as a puppet to control Nevada land (already over 84% of which is owned by the federal government) and pay back special interests,” she added. “BLM has proven that they’ve a situational concern for the desert tortoise as they’ve had no problem waiving their rules concerning wind or solar power development. Clearly these developments have vastly affected a tortoise habitat more than a century-old, quasi-homesteading grazing area.”

“If only Cliven Bundy were a big Reid donor.” » Breaking: Sen. Harry Reid Behind BLM Land Grab of Bundy Ranch Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

And if indeed Reid is behind this, then I will revise my position again. We shouldn't have a state Senator using the law to bully someone.