Mormons?

[Meriweather]

It is, but it does not meet any rational definition of idolatry. Certainly not in the same sense as the various practices and objects that the Catholics employ—statues and medallions and other representations of Mary and various Saints—instead of praying directly to and worshiping God himself; these practices being the very definition of idolatry.

Where two or three are gathered in my name... Do you consider it idolatry when you ask someone to pray for you, or when you pray for someone else? As I said before, Catholics believe the living and those who have passed on are living members of the Body of Christ.

Do you believe your Church are members of the Body of Christ? Do you believe those who have passed on have a different, but true, existence? If so, then you should not be making the mistakes you are making about what is idolatry and what is joining with others in prayer.

Statues and Icons of Saints are no more than a kind of Hall of Fame. They are reminders of good lives well lived. They are not idols. Do you consider the Angel Moroni atop the Temple in Salt Lake City a sign that members of the LDS Church go there to practice idolatry?

Unless you believe everyone who worships as a group and those who prays with any other person are practicing idolatry, it is an error to accuse another Church of idolatry.

 

[Coyote]

So....if you are a Mormon, can you explain the concept of what it is and why you chose that path? Did you do it on your own, or were you born into it due to family? What do you like/dislike about it?

This is Joseph Smith:

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here is a little more about Joseph Smith:

Joseph Smith flees Ohio | January 12, 1838 | HISTORY

After his bank fails in the Panic of 1837, Joseph Smith flees Kirtland, Ohio, to avoid arrest and heads for Missouri to rebuild his religious community. A sensitive and religious-minded man since his youth, Joseph Smith claimed the angel Moroni visited him in 1823, when he was 17 years old, and...

www.history.com

This is the text of the Book of Mormon whose source is from golden plates that were buried in the US--in New York that were written in reformed Egyptian. Yep.

Book of Mormon

Single source files for generating the English print scriptures. The basic text of the Translator’s Copy of the scriptures (06897) can also be derived from these files.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

It was chosen for me. I am an ex-Mormon. I also have line/s that go back to the beginning with Joseph Smith. This Eden, Arizona – Mormon Ghost Town – Legends of America was a town that my family established. It's a Mormon ghost town now. Several went from this town (or others mentioned) to Mexico where other Mormon families lived. My grandfather was born into it but didn't attend as an adult that I can remember but I realize there was life before my existence. My grandmother was a Quaker and came from a long line of Quakers. She never went to an LDS church for service and she never said (to the best of my knowledge) anything derogatory about it. You know.........like Quakers do or don't to be more precise. My father was a Mormon but had not attended since he was a child. My mother was born a Catholic. My dad said: Nope! Not doing that! I told my parents at like 6 or 7 that I wanted to become a Nun. They both said: Nope! Not doing that!

I remember getting up on Saturdays to crack wheat at the Church. Those were crazy times. Every night of the week had one family member attending church. It was never a night that we were as a family alone. The women didn't really hold a lot of power. Their power came from tattling on other women. We had a front room that was always reserved for other Mormons to come over to. Every once in a while a couple of the women from the church would come by. It didn't really stop there. Missionaries leave home with someone and they are not allowed to maintain contact with their parents. Just the Bishop, etc. That other person is with you 24/7 and they maintain contact with the bishop. You are never alone and someone is always checking up on you. I think that is the most horrendous part of it. It's the part that I don't like. It's hard to digest.

That is absolutely fascinating! Like your family, mine on my mothers side also came from a long line of Mormons in Provo and Salt Lake City. Our branch got excommunicated though, over a land dispute. Funny history

That is funny history.

My mother and Aunt grew up as gentiles in the promised land. Our cousins were/are Morman. There was a big immigration movement in the late 1800's and turn of the century, where newly converted Mormans in mostly Scandanavian countries were coming over to joint the Church in the US. My great great Grandfather sent his (many) children over, as he could afford it. His daughters were already promised in marriage to church elders when they arrived. Strange times.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Statues and Icons of Saints are no more than a kind of Hall of Fame. They are reminders of good lives well lived. They are not idols. Do you consider the Angel Moroni atop the Temple in Salt Lake City a sign that members of the LDS Church go there to practice idolatry?

We don't pray to Moroni. We don't worship Moroni. We certainly don't pray to or worship statues, paintings, icons, etc. of Moroni, nor anyone else.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

My mother and Aunt grew up as gentiles in the promised land. Our cousins were/are Morman [sic]. There was a big immigration movement in the late 1800's and turn of the century, where newly converted Mormans [sic] in mostly Scandanavian countries were coming over to joint the Church in the US.

If that was true, then I think that it stands to reason that you would at least know how to spell it.

 

[Coyote]

My mother and Aunt grew up as gentiles in the promised land. Our cousins were/are Morman [sic]. There was a big immigration movement in the late 1800's and turn of the century, where newly converted Mormans [sic] in mostly Scandanavian countries were coming over to joint the Church in the US.

If that was true, then I think that it stands to reason that you would at least know how to spell it.

I'm a crappy speller, who cares?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I'm a crappy speller, who cares?

One of the obvious signs of an “ex-Mormon” who is lying about ever having been a Mormon or ever having even known anything about Mormons, is that they don't even know how to spell it. It's more common that would seem rational to expect, to see someone claiming some connection to “MormAns”, about whom it quickly becomes clear that they don't actually know anything about us, about our faith, our beliefs, our practices, at all.

Of course, you are very solidly established as a sociopathic liar and many other topics, so it is no surprise to see similar proof of it from you on this topic.

 

[Coyote]

I'm a crappy speller, who cares?

One of the obvious signs of an “ex-Mormon” who is lying about ever having been a Mormon or ever having even known anything about Mormons, is that they don't even know how to spell it. It's more common that would seem rational to expect, to see someone claiming some connection to “MormAns”, about whom it quickly becomes clear that they don't actually know anything about us, about our faith, our beliefs, our practices, at all.

Of course, you are very solidly established as a sociopathic liar and many other topics, so it is no surprise to see similar proof of it from you on this topic.

I am not a Mormon. I was not raised a Mormon. I am not an ex-Mormon. You, however, are an established asshole. I know my family history, thank you very much. And I have family in SLC and Provo who are very much Mormon.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I am not a Mormon. I was not raised a Mormon. I am not an ex-Mormon. You, however, are an established asshole. I know my family history, thank you very much. And I have family in SLC and Provo who are very much Mormon.

Again, if you weren't lying about that, then you'd have known how to spell it. That you didn't even know how to spell it corrector, until I pointed out the error, proves that yous re lying about any connections to or knowledge that you claimed to have with Mormonism. Associating with us, and somehow coming away thinking that it is spelled with an “A” is something that just doesn't happen.

 

[Coyote]

I am not a Mormon. I was not raised a Mormon. I am not an ex-Mormon. You, however, are an established asshole. I know my family history, thank you very much. And I have family in SLC and Provo who are very much Mormon.

Again, if you weren't lying about that, then you'd have known how to spell it. That you didn't even know how to spell it corrector, until I pointed out the error, proves that yous re lying about any connections to or knowledge that you claimed to have with Mormonism. Associating with us, and somehow coming away thinking that it is spelled with an “A” is something that just doesn't happen.

Well Bobby, I have a well established reputation for being a crap speller, while you have a well established reputation for being an asshole (spelled with an "A"). As I pointed out I am not and never have claimed to be a Mormon, but I DO know my family history.

And, if I were to make a guess, based on your behavior here...you ain't much of a Mormon even if you can spell it correctly...or as you put it "corrector". Hmmm...you can't spell correctly...correctly...must mean you aren't correct or know anything about being correct. Face it - you are a fake correction expert.

 

[ding]

Statues and Icons of Saints are no more than a kind of Hall of Fame. They are reminders of good lives well lived. They are not idols. Do you consider the Angel Moroni atop the Temple in Salt Lake City a sign that members of the LDS Church go there to practice idolatry?

We don't pray to Moroni. We don't worship Moroni. We certainly don't pray to or worship statues, paintings, icons, etc. of Moroni, nor anyone else.

Neither do Catholics. We just get accused of doing it by adherents of other religions. A lot.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

And, if I were to make a guess, based on your behavior here...you ain't much of a Mormon even if you can spell it correctly...or as you put it "corrector". Hmmm...you can't spell correctly...correctly...must mean you aren't correct or know anything about being correct. Face it - you are a fake correction expert.

I certainly do not claim to be perfect, and I know that I have many flaws.

However, you would do well to pay attention to that huge beam in your own eye, before you fuss about the mote in mine.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

We don't pray to Moroni. We don't worship Moroni. We certainly don't pray to or worship statues, paintings, icons, etc. of Moroni, nor anyone else.

Neither do Catholics. We just get accused of doing it by adherents of other religions. A lot.

This particular line has gone longer than I intend it. I do not presume to tell you or anyone else how, who, or what you may worship or pray to.

But a simple, undeniable fact remains—Catholicism has practices which, if they do not constitute idolatry, are certainly much, much, much, much closer to it than anything that we Mormons do. You simply are not in any position to falsely accuse us of it, and to thereafter retain any credibility.

 

[ESay]

It is, but it does not meet any rational definition of idolatry. Certainly not in the same sense as the various practices and objects that the Catholics employ—statues and medallions and other representations of Mary and various Saints—instead of praying directly to and worshiping God himself; these practices being the very definition of idolatry.

Where two or three are gathered in my name... Do you consider it idolatry when you ask someone to pray for you, or when you pray for someone else? As I said before, Catholics believe the living and those who have passed on are living members of the Body of Christ.

Do you believe your Church are members of the Body of Christ? Do you believe those who have passed on have a different, but true, existence? If so, then you should not be making the mistakes you are making about what is idolatry and what is joining with others in prayer.

Statues and Icons of Saints are no more than a kind of Hall of Fame. They are reminders of good lives well lived. They are not idols. Do you consider the Angel Moroni atop the Temple in Salt Lake City a sign that members of the LDS Church go there to practice idolatry?

Unless you believe everyone who worships as a group and those who prays with any other person are practicing idolatry, it is an error to accuse another Church of idolatry.

That is a matter of personal perspective. Yes, maybe the Catholics don't worship Mary and saints, but even the idea of worshiping God 'through' somebody else is highly flawed. This greatly lowers God's omnipotence and omniscience.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

That is a matter of personal perspective. Yes, maybe the Catholics don't worship Mary and saints, but even the idea of worshiping God 'through' somebody else is highly flawed. This greatly lowers God's omnipotence and omniscience.

I really didn't want to get into attacking anyone else's religion. I really didn't.

It remains as a fact for me, and I am sure, for nearly everyone else of nearly any other faith, that all other religions than my own are going to have beliefs and practices with which I disagree. Catholicism certainly has beliefs and practices that are irreconcilable with those of my own Mormon faith. I'm not really interested in attacking or condemning them over practices of theirs which, to me, seem to be rather blatant examples of idolatry; nor over any of their other teachings and practices which are contrary to mine.

My problem here is when a Catholic knowingly, willfully, made a false accusation against my faith, accusing us of idolatry, from a religion that undeniably engages in practices which, if they can somehow be construed as not being idolatrous, are certainly much, much, much closer to it than anything found in my faith.

 

[onefour1]

The "problem" with the Joseph Smith religion is that it is too recent, so that many of its beliefs can be disproven. It's not just the pie-in-the-sky stuff that is not subject to measurement, it's the actual factual claims that are - hate to say it - false. Did Christ walk on water? Nobody today can disprove it. But did Joe Smith receive golden tablets from the angel Moroni, translating them from "reformed Egyptian" to English? No.

There is no genetic or archaeological evidence to support the basic history of the Book of Mormon. No artifacts, no Native Americans with Semitic genes, none of it. In fact, given the breadth of the claims, the total lack of corroboration is proof that it is all made up. Further, Smith's beliefs that the Amerindians descended from the so-called "lost tribes of Israel" was fairly common at Smith's time.

There is no such language as "reformed Egyptian," and never was. The "witnesses" to the BoM were compromised and simply cannot be believed.

The fraud of the Book of Abraham has never been explained away, as that is not really possible. Smith took a document that he presumed NOBODY would ever be able to translate, and made up a story about a biblical figure that is now part of LDS scripture. It was later translated by a competent linguist and it had nothing to do with Abraham or any Hebrew, and was off in time by centuries.

The LDS religion is, by most accounts, a valuable cultural addition to the American mosaic, producing good citizens by the hundreds of thousands. But theologically it is balderdash. Maybe all religions are, but LDS is provable balderdash.

And if stating an obvious truth makes me a bigot, then send me to jail. Guilty as charged.

Joseph Smith was killed in illinois I still can't figure that one out..



Part of Anti-Mormon violence in the U.S. Joseph Smith, the founder and leader of the Latter Day Saint movement, and his brother, Hyrum Smith, were killed by a mob in Carthage, Illinois, United States, on June 27, 1844, while awaiting trial in the town jail. ...
Resulted in: Deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith
Location: Carthage, Illinois, U.S.
Date: June 27, 1844; 176 years ago
Wikipedia › wiki › Death_of_Josep...
Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

What is it that you cannot figure out?

 

[ding]

We don't pray to Moroni. We don't worship Moroni. We certainly don't pray to or worship statues, paintings, icons, etc. of Moroni, nor anyone else.

Neither do Catholics. We just get accused of doing it by adherents of other religions. A lot.

This particular line has gone longer than I intend it. I do not presume to tell you or anyone else how, who, or what you may worship or pray to.

But a simple, undeniable fact remains—Catholicism has practices which, if they do not constitute idolatry, are certainly much, much, much, much closer to it than anything that we Mormons do. You simply are not in any position to falsely accuse us of it, and to thereafter retain any credibility.

I haven't accused anyone of anything. That's what you did.

The beauty of absolutes is that it either is or it isn't. There's no closer to in an absolute. So the distinction you are trying to make does not exist. What does exist is religious rivalries. Where adherents of one religion attack the adherents of another religion over their beliefs or practices. That absolutely does exist. It happens all the time in this forum. The thing about religious rivalries is that the people who attack the religious beliefs of others don't believe it is wrong until someone attacks theirs. Some even recognize that when they did it to others it was wrong. And some don't.

 

[Meriweather]

We don't pray to Moroni. We don't worship Moroni. We certainly don't pray to or worship statues, paintings, icons, etc. of Moroni, nor anyone else.

Nor do Catholics. Do you join with each other in prayer?

 

[Meriweather]

That is a matter of personal perspective. Yes, maybe the Catholics don't worship Mary and saints, but even the idea of worshiping God 'through' somebody else is highly flawed. This greatly lowers God's omnipotence and omniscience.

I do not try to change another perspective. I cannot. All I can tell you is that we don't pray "through" anyone, unless perhaps the Holy Spirit. We pray with the living members of the Body of Christ which includes everyone.

I am explaining what IS--not what anyone thinks "appears to be".

 

[Meriweather]

My problem here is when a Catholic knowingly, willfully, made a false accusation against my faith, accusing us of idolatry, from a religion that undeniably engages in practices which, if they can somehow be construed as not being idolatrous, are certainly much, much, much closer to it than anything found in my faith.

The practice of putting words into another's mouth via proxy is wrong. I notice you cannot defend this. Instead you try to accuse another faith of something they are NOT doing. Let's talk about having a proxy speak words for my grandmother and being baptized in her place.

You have no authority to speak for another. Even God does not do this.

 

[onefour1]

Baptism for the dead is a baptism done by proxy where another person is baptized in behalf of a person who is dead. However, if that dead person does not accept the proxy baptism performed in their behalf, then the proxy baptism is of not effect. So when you say that we are putting words in the mouth of the dead person, you are making a false claim. The dead person is only dead as to their body. They are not dead as to the spirit. They still live and are able to decide whether or not they accept the baptism or not. So to say that we are putting words in their mouth is absolutely FALSE!