Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[hadit]

As has been said over and over again: No one worships images. Think about this: Do you kneel or bow your head when you are in a closet, and is that worshiping the closet? When a particularly beautiful part of nature draws you into prayer due to its splendor and solitude, is that prayer worshiping nature? Did the Jewish people worship the images on the Ark of the Covenant, the serpent, or the images in the Temple? What draws one into prayer and contemplation of God, whether a work of art or a work of nature or a closet is not an idol, and never has been. Jewish pre-history dates back to times where people thought a graven image of something had the power of the real living thing--and it does not. As far as I know, no person of faith believes in the power of an inanimate object.

I don't know whether it is still brought up in Catholic schools, but when I attended, we were taught to avoid having, or even regarding, a rabbit's foot, penny, or any other object as "lucky". That was believing an inanimate object had power, and Christians do not believe inanimate objects have power of any kind--not even luck. And certainly not bad luck (such as walking under a ladder, breaking a mirror, or even seeing a black cat run in front of one.

The problem with images is that mankind inevitably starts to give them greater power and treat them as sacred. How hard is it to go from, "There's a statue that reminds me to pray", to "I can't pray here, there's no statue of <fill in the blanks> here"?

 

[Meriweather]

The problem with images is that mankind inevitably starts to give them greater power and treat them as sacred. How hard is it to go from, "There's a statue that reminds me to pray", to "I can't pray here, there's no statue of <fill in the blanks> here"?

Do you only pray in church or a closet? Is it impossible for you to pray anywhere else? In Catholicism, we are taught our entire day should be a prayer. I often say a prayer or meditate on a particular Bible verse when at a stoplight. I've not once had to go find a stoplight in order to meditate on a Bible verse.

 

[ding]

No, I literally heard a Catholic woman in my class at church say she prays to Mary because she believes Mary will influence Jesus for her case.

So that is your basis for believing all Catholics do? Seems like I’m giving you a different data point.

 

[hadit]

So that is your basis for believing all Catholics do? Seems like I’m giving you a different data point.

No, I didn't say all Catholics do. That's a you thing.

 

[ding]

No, I didn't say all Catholics do. That's a you thing.

And yet I have never seen you argue it any other way.

 

[hadit]

And yet I have never seen you argue it any other way.

Then you haven't been paying any attention to the discussions I've had with your fellow Catholic on here. Words mean things.

 

[ding]

Then you haven't been paying any attention to the discussions I've had with your fellow Catholic on here. Words mean things.

I’ve had plenty of discussions with you. I’ve corrected your errors many times. You keep doing it.

 

[hadit]

I’ve had plenty of discussions with you. I’ve corrected your errors many times. You keep doing it.

Did I say anything about that? Survey says, "No". Obvious troll is being obvious.

 

[ding]

Did I say anything about that? Survey says, "No". Obvious troll is being obvious.

You make the same tired arguments against Catholics over and over again. Don’t crawfish away from it now. Lean into it. As for trolling, it’s you who is the troll. I’m defending my faith from your attacks.

The Catholic Church stays true to the sacred traditions established by the first Christians who were apostles of Jesus. Protestants and other religious sects do not.

 

[hadit]

You make the same tired arguments against Catholics over and over again. Don’t crawfish away from it now. Lean into it. As for trolling, it’s you who is the troll. I’m defending my faith from your attacks.

The Catholic Church stays true to the sacred traditions established by the first Christians who were apostles of Jesus. Protestants and other religious sects do not.

Well, except for that making graven images thing. The Apostles, being observant Jews, would not have approved of that. Oh, and the ostentatious uniforms that don't relate to anything the early church either did or stood for. But hey, pick and choose the traditions you want to follow and call them sacred.

 

[ding]

Well, except for that making graven images thing. The Apostles, being observant Jews, would not have approved of that. Oh, and the ostentatious uniforms that don't relate to anything the early church either did or stood for. But hey, pick and choose the traditions you want to follow and call them sacred.

They venerated Mary. We all should.

 

[hadit]

They venerated Mary. We all should.

Show me where they made all manner of statues and paintings of her and the Apostles. They were observant Jews brought up in the traditions of the Mosaic Law, which specifically forbade such. Why do you deny their traditions? This is what I mean by picking and choosing what to follow and what not to follow.

Also, show me where they made ostentatious uniforms for their authority structure to wear, signifying their rank. No, they didn't have ANY of that. They were ordinary looking people, and you could not tell they were leading the church just by looking at them.

 

[ding]

Show me where they made all manner of statues and paintings of her and the Apostles. They were observant Jews brought up in the traditions of the Mosaic Law, which specifically forbade such. Why do you deny their traditions? This is what I mean by picking and choosing what to follow and what not to follow.

Why? For what purpose should I waste my time trying to convince you of anything?

 

[hadit]

Why? For what purpose should I waste my time trying to convince you of anything?

I'm pointing out that when you boast that you are following the Apostles' traditions, you're not really doing so, only following SOME things that you believe they did, things that are extra-Biblical, yet you proudly cling to them and wave them around like they put you above other Christians.

 

[ding]

I'm pointing out that when you boast that you are following the Apostles' traditions, you're not really doing so, only following SOME things that you believe they did, things that are extra-Biblical, yet you proudly cling to them and wave them around like they put you above other Christians.

No. Most of the time you are making really dumb strawman arguments to attack a rival religion.

As for following sacred traditions, you shit on them all.

 

[hadit]

No. Most of the time you are making really dumb strawman arguments to attack a rival religion.

I get it that you don't like being challenged, but that's not my problem.

As for following sacred traditions, you shit on them all.

You sound angry. Might want to dial that down a bit. From what I see you writing, a lot of the "traditions" you are so proud of following are not really Apostolic at all but were added well after they left the scene.

And you still haven't addressed the graven images and uniforms issues I've raised, just got mad that I did.

 

[ding]

I get it that you don't like being challenged, but that's not my problem.

You sound angry. Might want to dial that down a bit. From what I see you writing, a lot of the "traditions" you are so proud of following are not really Apostolic at all but were added well after they left the scene.

And you still haven't addressed the graven images and uniforms issues I've raised, just got mad that I did.

That’s not my problem. That’s you rationalizing what you are doing. I didn’t come after your faith.

 

[hadit]

That’s not my problem. That’s you rationalizing what you are doing. I didn’t come after your faith.

Do you not disparage Protestants and Protestantism? Do you publicly acknowledge that they are your equals in the Kingdom of Christ? I have done so for Catholics.

I have stated that there are Christians in all denominations, but that no denomination is totally composed of Christians. IOW, we will be with Christians from all denominations before God, but we will notice that among the missing will be some we went to church with.

 

[ding]

Do you not disparage Protestants and Protestantism? Do you publicly acknowledge that they are your equals in the Kingdom of Christ? I have done so for Catholics.

I have stated that there are Christians in all denominations, but that no denomination is totally composed of Christians. IOW, we will be with Christians from all denominations before God, but we will notice that among the missing will be some we went to church with.

I don’t believe I do. Not sure why you would ever think I have. Maybe you are confusing my defense from the attacks of others. I certainly don’t go out of my way to seek conflict.

What other people choose to believe is none of my business. I couldn’t care less.

 

[Meriweather]

Show me where they made all manner of statues and paintings of her and the Apostles. They were observant Jews brought up in the traditions of the Mosaic Law, which specifically forbade such. Why do you deny their traditions? This is what I mean by picking and choosing what to follow and what not to follow.

Also, show me where they made ostentatious uniforms for their authority structure to wear, signifying their rank. No, they didn't have ANY of that. They were ordinary looking people, and you could not tell they were leading the church just by looking at them.

The Apostles were fishermen, not artists. They all were observant Jews, and they worshiped in the Temple which did have engravings, some of which were cherubim, even engravings of high priest garments, palms and other things symbolizing holiness. Priestly robes dated back to early Judaism, and were also symbolic of holiness. Later, when styles changed from robes to pants, clergy elected to refrain from the newfangled, modern clothing and remain with the traditional robes.

What say you: Which is more Biblical, ministers in a suit and tie or priests in robes?