Zone1 Mary

Again, if she didn't sin, why does she need a savior.
She needed God, her Savior's grace. Only God could provide this grace.
That is the literal definition of sin. It is not a particular thought or action but falling short of God's perfection. Jesus is the only person in human history to pull that off.
The etymology of the word 'perfect' is whole, complete. Abba, as God, is whole and complete in the being as God. Mary, as human, was whole, complete in her existence as human.
 
Do you believe she not only filled herself with God's grace on her own, but created God's grace? Mary never considered herself anything other than human. You seem to be asserting God would NEVER FILL anyone with His grace, especially not the mother of Jesus.
Absolutely not. God filled many people and prepared them for important tasks without them in any way achieving sinless perfection. IOW, God can and does fill people with His goodness, grace and Spirit after they have sinned.
Why not insist that Mary did not know God's grace, she was hallucinating when the angel said she was full of grace, and it was actually Satan who had control of Mary? Poor, idiot girl...right? She thought God was her savior when she was tricked by Satan. Right?
As I've asked many times, why did she need or want a savior if she already knew she was perfect and sinless? You only need a savior if you need to be saved, and a sinless human being does not need to be saved.
 
It is important because some take it much further than a theological discussion point and literally worship Mary, giving her divine status in everything but name, then teach others to do the same. It makes no difference to me if you believe she didn't sin, that's on you, but when someone takes it further and makes a believer think they have to include Mary in their salvation or literally depend on her for things that can only come from God, there's a problem.
No. This is not what is happening. You are the one throwing around baseless accusations, saying I am giving Mary worship and divine status. Catholics believe Mary is human, she is not divine. So stop with that deceit. The only parts Mary played in salvation was her obedience to God and that she was the mother of Jesus, carrying him in her womb. Think about it. I have a daughter in the military. Does this elevate me to General, and do people salute me as General, since I gave birth to her?
 
Why would she need to be saved if she was sinless?
Why would she sin if she were filled with the grace of God?

Or perhaps you disagree with Paul and the other Apostles that we are saved by God's grace? Perhaps you eschew the whole idea of God's saving grace? Or is your position that God's grace saves everyone but Mary, the mother of His son?
 
You are familiar with the terms "co-redemptrix", "mediatrix", and "advocate", right? If you believe she is somehow more instrumental in salvation than you and I are, there's a problem. If you believe that she is in any way ESSENTIAL for salvation, there's a problem. If you believe she is our advocate before God when Scripture clearly names Jesus and the Holy Spirit as our advocate, there's a problem.

As with many things Catholic, the leadership makes a proclamation and leaves everyone to argue over what it means. Some take it and run with it and all of a sudden there's a new dogma that MUST be adhered to that is not based in Scripture.
Other than advocate (which includes all saints) none of this is Catholic teaching. So, what's your point?
 
As I've asked many times, why did she need or want a savior if she already knew she was perfect and sinless?
She had a savior. Why doesn't this sink in with you?
 
So why do you believe Mary, a human, could save mankind from their sins?

I don't. I'm asking you what hadit has been trying to ask you. If Mary was sinless why would she need a savior? Why couldn't she be the savior? Why did it have to be Jesus who died on the cross if Mary could have just done it herself? You seem to be avoiding these questions.

He is also man.

I never said He wasn't but He's still God so ALL have fallen short to His glory.

Do you believe she not only filled herself with God's grace on her own, but created God's grace? Mary never considered herself anything other than human. You seem to be asserting God would NEVER FILL anyone with His grace, especially not the mother of Jesus.

Where in the world did you get that from?

Why not insist that Mary did not know God's grace, she was hallucinating when the angel said she was full of grace, and it was actually Satan who had control of Mary? Poor, idiot girl...right? She thought God was her savior when she was tricked by Satan. Right?

You totally lost me now.

Why would she sin if she were filled with the grace of God?

Umm that's the whole entire reason that Jesus died on the cross. Nobody can enter the kingdom of God on their own, it's by the grace of God that we receive our eternal salvation.

She had a savior. Why doesn't this sink in with you?

You seem to be the one confused as you keep contradicting yourself. One moment you claim Mary was sinless and the next moment you claim that she had a savior. That doesn't make any sense because if she was sinless she wouldn't need a savior.
 
I don't. I'm asking you what @hadit has been trying to ask you. If Mary was sinless why would she need a savior? Why couldn't she be the savior? Why did it have to be Jesus who died on the cross if Mary could have just done it herself? You seem to be avoiding these questions.
See Post #654.
You seem to be the one confused as you keep contradicting yourself. One moment you claim Mary was sinless and the next moment you claim that she had a savior. That doesn't make any sense because if she was sinless she wouldn't need a savior.
No contradiction.
 
Right, but if she was sinless, as you maintain, she would not NEED a savior. So, again, why would she testify that God is her savior when she didn't need to be saved? I don't think you can have it both ways.
Maybe because she knew God created her and gave her such graces, without which she would as lost as the rest of humanity.

It amazes me how much Protestants go out of their way to demean the Mother of Jesus. As of God wouldn’t make such a woman the most amazing woman.

She is the Woman in Genesis promised to crush the head of the serpent, Satan. You think a sinner could do that?
 
It amazes me how much Protestants go out of their way to demean the Mother of Jesus. As of God wouldn’t make such a woman the most amazing woman.

Nobody is saying that Mary wasn't an amazing woman. She had to be for God to choose her to give birth to His Son, but just because she was an amazing woman doesn't make her sinless.
 
I wasn't interpreting. I wrote down the actual verses. Second, it was not a private interpretation but actuality overriding LDS private interpretation. If your church would admit their private interpretation by one of your prophets, it would make more sense than trying to bluster a silly pipe dream that the Bible does not support.
Anytime you attempt to give an opinion, that is an interpretation as well. You are insinuating something and that is also an opinion which is an interpretation. And yes, it was your church's private interpretation which is fine with me however wrong it is. You have that right as we do with an actual Prophet of God doing it. Popes are not prophets and have stated this many times. And, the Bible supports it as it is properly understood. The reason why one of our apostles, James E. Talmage, said "god" refers to judges is that when Adam and Eve transgressed, they became like one of "US" gods knowing good and evil. By knowing good and evil and the difference, we become judges as we are to choose one or the other. We judge all the time as we make choices. We also judge others with their choices. When the Lord gave the commandments not to judge one another, he meant not to judge unrighteously one another. We are gods learning to become Gods. Sorry if that bothers you. I have no idea why it does.
 
We are gods learning to become Gods. Sorry if that bothers you. I have no idea why it does.
You thinking you are learning to become gods doesn't bother me at all. It's hard to be bothered when one is chuckling. Yet, even as I laugh, I do pity those who have wound themselves up in this springe.

Presenting accurate Biblical language and explanation shouldn't be regarded as being "bothered" either. I am happy to point out that knowing both good and evil (Genesis 3 which you reference) does not make one divine/God. It means, like God and the angels, humans now have knowledge of both good and evil. Rabbinical interpretation of the 'us' in Genesis is that God was speaking to the angels who, like God, are immortal and have knowledge of good and evil. I'm aware there are LDS members who believe the angels are gods and/or becoming gods. It appears the LDS position is that instead of one God, gods outnumber humans at any given time.
 
Nobody is saying that Mary wasn't an amazing woman. She had to be for God to choose her to give birth to His Son, but just because she was an amazing woman doesn't make her sinless.
The Bible is not shy about noting the sins of those being written about, especially its major characters. Can you present the verse that you feel records the sin(s) of Mary?
 
He needed to become one of us, flesh and blood.

that's just stupid - anyone from the heavens that communicated with humanity would have a lasting bearing regardless what intent they may have for doing so.
 
Nobody is saying that Mary wasn't an amazing woman. She had to be for God to choose her to give birth to His Son, but just because she was an amazing woman doesn't make her sinless.

to chose them ...

mary and joseph were heavenly chosen as they did not fear moses and his false commandments nor judaism and lived their lives as jesus taught, their own self determination than that of servitude and denial as the prevailing religion.
 
You thinking you are learning to become gods doesn't bother me at all. It's hard to be bothered when one is chuckling. Yet, even as I laugh, I do pity those who have wound themselves up in this springe.

Presenting accurate Biblical language and explanation shouldn't be regarded as being "bothered" either. I am happy to point out that knowing both good and evil (Genesis 3 which you reference) does not make one divine/God. It means, like God and the angels, humans now have knowledge of both good and evil. Rabbinical interpretation of the 'us' in Genesis is that God was speaking to the angels who, like God, are immortal and have knowledge of good and evil. I'm aware there are LDS members who believe the angels are gods and/or becoming gods. It appears the LDS position is that instead of one God, gods outnumber humans at any given time.
Well, since the rabbis were not there in the Garden of Eden, it's just their guess on what happened. We have prophets that have conversed with the Lord God of Israel and know for sure. As I've mentioned before, the scholars and rabbis of the Bible start of in the state of apostasy and have polluted the truth of the Plan of Salvation and Exaltation. The Bible is mostly correct if interpreted properly from ancient times to the present. And, unfortunately, when you have only partial truth, you will never get to the goals in eternal life and exaltation.

Each time during the translations of the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price and the correction of the Bible, Joseph Smith knelt down in prayer and fasting to receive the fulness of the Gospel from Adam on down to Jesus Christ and what was the truth. He didn't just take the words of apostasy scholars and rabbis as truth with interpretation and understanding. He went to the Lord and asked with real intent with is faith not wavering and without a double mind as I see you do. But, it's okay. You have enough to make it to the middle kingdom of glory and possibly beyond a bit in the spirit prison after this life. Or, you can humble yourself in sight of the Lord and he can lift you up!
 
Well, since the rabbis were not there in the Garden of Eden, it's just their guess on what happened. We have prophets that have conversed with the Lord God of Israel and know for sure. As I've mentioned before, the scholars and rabbis of the Bible start of in the state of apostasy and have polluted the truth of the Plan of Salvation and Exaltation. The Bible is mostly correct if interpreted properly from ancient times to the present. And, unfortunately, when you have only partial truth, you will never get to the goals in eternal life and exaltation.

Each time during the translations of the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price and the correction of the Bible, Joseph Smith knelt down in prayer and fasting to receive the fulness of the Gospel from Adam on down to Jesus Christ and what was the truth. He didn't just take the words of apostasy scholars and rabbis as truth with interpretation and understanding. He went to the Lord and asked with real intent with is faith not wavering and without a double mind as I see you do. But, it's okay. You have enough to make it to the middle kingdom of glory and possibly beyond a bit in the spirit prison after this life. Or, you can humble yourself in sight of the Lord and he can lift you up!
The above post is an example of LDS humbleness? (Again, I'm grinning.)
 
Nobody is saying that Mary wasn't an amazing woman. She had to be for God to choose her to give birth to His Son, but just because she was an amazing woman doesn't make her sinless.

Luke 1:46
46 Then Mary said,

“My soul praises the Lord;
47 my heart rejoices in God my Savior,
48 because he has shown his concern for his humble servant girl.
From now on, all people will say that I am blessed,
49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me.

His name is holy.
50 God will show his mercy forever and ever
to those who worship and serve him.
 
The Bible is not shy about noting the sins of those being written about, especially its major characters. Can you present the verse that you feel records the sin(s) of Mary?

No can you show me a verse that presents the sins of Joseph, James, or John the Baptist?

Luke 1:46
46 Then Mary said,

“My soul praises the Lord;
47 my heart rejoices in God my Savior,
48 because he has shown his concern for his humble servant girl.
From now on, all people will say that I am blessed,
49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me.

His name is holy.
50 God will show his mercy forever and ever
to those who worship and serve him.

I never said that she wasn't blessed. All I said is that she wasn't sinless.
 
This is just dumb. Why would they claim Mary to be Palestinian? She is descended from King David, of Judah. Therefore, from human genealogy, she is from the tribe of Judah as would Jesus Christ. Joseph is not Jesus human biological father. Father in Heaven is. But, Joseph adopted Jesus and Joseph is also a descendent of Judah, Jewish. The present day Palestinians are not descendant from Judah. End of debate.
Wait...So it was all in the family? Wow!
 

New Topics

Back
Top Bottom