Zone1 Mary

[hadit]

Mary could be special and full of grace and the Lord could be with her and she still didn't have to be perfect and she wasn't.

In fact, if you bother to read the Bible at all, you will see that God chooses the most miserable, the most despicable, the most outcast among us, redeems them and uses them for very special work.

King David, adulterer and murderer.
Solomon, led into idol worship by his hundreds of wives and concubines.
Jonah, tried to run away from God and his calling.
Samson, led away from God by a woman.
Moses, murderer.
Peter, betrayer.

I could go on. We don't need, however, to rehash the whole Mary thing. Catholics want to believe she was sinless but don't want to understand that if she really was, she showed that man could stand before God without a savior, and therefore Jesus' sacrifice wasn't necessary. That I can't accept, because Jesus sweated blood begging the Father for ANY way He didn't have to be separated from the Father as He became the sin of mankind.

 

[hadit]

Wrong. All of the early church fathers assumed that Mary remained a virgin and sinless.

Nothing in the Bible shows that Mary ever sinned.

Then why did Jesus have to be separated from the Father on the cross if man did not need a redeemer? If man could be sinless, there is no need for His sacrifice.

 

[hadit]

Wrong. All of the early church fathers assumed that Mary remained a virgin and sinless.

Nothing in the Bible shows that Mary ever sinned.

It also nowhere says she did not. Where does it say, for example, that Lazarus ever sinned? Sin is universal in man, to the point that a truly sinless person is remarkable for being so.

 

[hadit]

What does that have to do with Mary?

As I've pointed out, if she could manage to really live her life in sinless perfection, there was no need for Jesus' sacrifice, a sacrifice He sweated blood begging the Father to avoid.

 

[Road Runner]

hadit, for the record I know the Bible a bit, but I have trouble understanding it.

 

[hadit]

hadit, for the record I know the Bible a bit, but I have trouble understanding it.

That is universal. The deeper you dig into it, the more you realize you don't know.

 

[theHawk]

As I've pointed out, if she could manage to really live her life in sinless perfection, there was no need for Jesus' sacrifice, a sacrifice He sweated blood begging the Father to avoid.

Who claimed that?

Mary was made differently than all others, as she was predestined to be the ark for the Lord, so she had to be made holy.

By your reasoning a murdered fetus is sinless thus doesn’t need a savior. Except they do.

 

[Road Runner]

By your reasoning a murdered fetus is sinless thus doesn’t need a savior. Except they do.

Huh?

 

[hadit]

Who claimed that?

Claimed what, that Jesus sweat blood pleading with the Father to avoid the cross? Scripture claims that. He begged the Father for any way around it.

Mary was made differently than all others, as she was predestined to be the ark for the Lord, so she had to be made holy.

Based on what Scripture? That sounds like feelz to me. Should her mother not also been sinless to bear Mary?

By your reasoning a murdered fetus is sinless thus doesn’t need a savior. Except they do.

Therefore, God could simply make all mankind sinless and not need to redeem anyone. And, your example merely makes my point that we are all sinners and need a savior. And yes, that includes Mary. By saying she was sinless, you are saying she could walk straight to God's throne and demand He accept her without Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus sweat blood because he didn't want to be separated from the Father on the cross, so here was a way the cup could pass from Him.

 

[theHawk]

Based on what Scripture? That sounds like feelz to me. Should her mother not also been sinless to bear Mary?

Not all knowledge is found in scripture. The scriptures are the foundational knowledge to understand God and that Jesus is his son.

 

[theHawk]

By saying she was sinless, you are saying she could walk straight to God's throne and demand He accept her without Jesus' sacrifice

I never made such a claim. I merely said she was sinless. You projected the rest from your own imagination.

 

[otto105]

So I don't get it. People in the media are upset about this but not about race swaps?

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Honestly it looks sort of boring and I prefer The Nativity Story (movie) myself, but at least they're close with the ethnicity unlike some movies.

Fuckups it’s a phax fucked up thing.

Santa was so white story.

 

[theHawk]

Huh?

He is claiming if a human lives their entire life without sin, they wouldn’t need Jesus to die for their sins.

Wouldn’t that mean that fetuses killed by abortion and miscarriage are sinless, also perhaps young babies that die?

This is not the case though, there is such a thing as generational sin and God punishes descendants for their parents’ sins, this is throughout the Bible.

But Mary was spared this Original Sin. She did not have the curse of Adam and Eve on her. She was the “New Eve” just as Jesus was the “new Adam” and they did not fail like the original Adam and Eve did by giving into temptation and sin.

 

[Road Runner]

He is claiming if a human lives their entire life without sin, they wouldn’t need Jesus to die for their sins.

Wouldn’t that mean that fetuses killed by abortion and miscarriage are sinless, also perhaps young babies that die?

This is not the case though, there is such a thing as generational sin and God punishes descendants for their parents’ sins, this is throughout the Bible.

But Mary was spared this Original Sin. She did not have the curse of Adam and Eve on her. She was the “New Eve” just as Jesus was the “new Adam” and they did not fail like the original Adam and Eve did by giving into temptation and sin.

Oh. I don't agree with all of your Mary beliefs but at least I understand your argument now.

 

[hadit]

I never made such a claim. I merely said she was sinless. You projected the rest from your own imagination.

What separates us from God? Sin does, from the very beginning. Adam and Eve walked with God without fear until what? Sin. After they sinned, they did what? They hid from God because they were afraid of him.

If Mary was truly sinless, something not told us in Scripture, she could walk into God's presence without fear and without a savior. How could it be otherwise?

 

[theHawk]

What separates us from God? Sin does, from the very beginning. Adam and Eve walked with God without fear until what? Sin. After they sinned, they did what? They hid from God because they were afraid of him.

If Mary was truly sinless, something not told us in Scripture, she could walk into God's presence without fear and without a savior. How could it be otherwise?

Correct. She didn’t just walk with God, she carried Him in her womb. I’d say that carrying God in your womb is a lot closer to being with God than merely being in his presence in a garden from time to time. God would not reside in a vessel of sin. Her savior was in her.

 

[Road Runner]

Correct. She didn’t just walk with God, she carried Him in her womb. I’d say that carrying God in your womb is a lot closer to being with God than merely being in his presence in a garden from time to time. God would not reside in a vessel of sin. Her savior was in her.

There's a difference with being blessed by God and being sinless. Mary was blessed but nowhere in the Bible does it say that she was sinless. Jesus came to save her too.

 

[hadit]

He is claiming if a human lives their entire life without sin, they wouldn’t need Jesus to die for their sins.

How is that false? You say original sin didn't count with Mary. Okay, take original sin out and tell me why a person who didn't sin even once their entire life needs Jesus' sacrifice.

Wouldn’t that mean that fetuses killed by abortion and miscarriage are sinless, also perhaps young babies that die?

This is not the case though, there is such a thing as generational sin and God punishes descendants for their parents’ sins, this is throughout the Bible.

Yes indeed, and Mary was born into humanity, complete with the curse of original sin. You claim God punishes descendants for their parents' sin, yet claim God just chose to spare Mary that punishment? I don't buy that.

But Mary was spared this Original Sin. She did not have the curse of Adam and Eve on her. She was the “New Eve” just as Jesus was the “new Adam” and they did not fail like the original Adam and Eve did by giving into temptation and sin.

That's your argument but you fail to follow through on the ramifications. First, there is no support for this idea in Scripture. It's just not in there, which leads you to insist cherry-picked non-Scripture has the same authority that Scripture does, and that's not acceptable. Second, as I have repeatedly said, if Mary had no original sin, AND she did not sin her entire life, tell me why she could not walk directly into God's presence without a redeemer and not be instantly destroyed. She would be as pure as any angel free to go in and out of His presence. Tell me why she could not and why she would need a savior, as she explicitly said she had. If she had a savior when she did not need one, that makes no sense.

After you think through that one, then tell me why Jesus suffered in the garden, begging the Father for any way man could be redeemed so He did not have to suffer being separated from the Father, if all God had to do was simply remove original sin for people and leave them to their own devices. That way you could be "good enough" completely on your own without the need for a redeemer, just like you claim Mary did. After all, if she could do it, so could everyone else and there would be no need for Christ to die and resurrect Himself.

 

[hadit]

Correct. She didn’t just walk with God, she carried Him in her womb. I’d say that carrying God in your womb is a lot closer to being with God than merely being in his presence in a garden from time to time. God would not reside in a vessel of sin.

Incorrect again. God the Holy Spirit DOES reside in vessels sin every day. He lives in all those who call on the name of the Lord and obey Him, even though they are imperfect beings.

Her savior was in her.

Again, why did she need a savior? She was sinless, remember?

 

[theHawk]

Incorrect again. God the Holy Spirit DOES reside in vessels sin every day. He lives in all those who call on the name of the Lord and obey Him, even though they are imperfect beings.

Again, why did she need a savior? She was sinless, remember?

By that line of thinking why would he need to come about into our world through a virgin woman? Why not just a through a normal man via the Holy Spirit?