Zone1 Mary

[Meriweather]

Then He would be "Protector", not "Savior". I'm sorry, but "savior" denotes pulling one out of a place they are already in, not keeping them out of it.

Think about this. Preventing someone from stepping into traffic before they are already in traffic is a saving action, not simply a protective one. If someone is about to step off a cliff, pulling them back is a saving action, not a simply a protective one.

Listen, as I have told others, if it is truly important to to view Mary as a sinner, by all means, view her that way. I'm merely pointing out that is not how scripture and early Christians viewed her. They have their opinion, you have yours. I am merely presenting what is in scripture and the early Christian view.

 

[hadit]

Think about this. Preventing someone from stepping into traffic before they are already in traffic is a saving action, not simply a protective one. If someone is about to step off a cliff, pulling them back is a saving action, not a simply a protective one.

Listen, as I have told others, if it is truly important to to view Mary as a sinner, by all means, view her that way. I'm merely pointing out that is not how scripture and early Christians viewed her. They have their opinion, you have yours. I am merely presenting what is in scripture and the early Christian view.

I understand that but also understand that even a hair style was considered an apostolic tradition until fairly recently. I would like to understand the Greek a little better to compare what it says about Mary with what it says about Stephen.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem I have with that is the Scriptures don't add the pieces you add. They don't say, "saved from sinning". Everywhere it talks about God saving someone, it's from sin they are already in.

That's truly amazing. I see God's grace in my life, and the life I was born into by the grace of God. It's almost beyond imaging the sins--and the number of sins--I would have, and would be, committing if not for the grace of God. I would not be the same person if not for God's guidance, if not for his grace.

 

[Meriweather]

I understand that but also understand that even a hair style was considered an apostolic tradition until fairly recently. I would like to understand the Greek a little better to compare what it says about Mary with what it says about Stephen.

Of course. There are also two or three times where Acts says Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth was said to have been filled with the Holy Spirit when she heard Mary's greeting. There is no Bible verse that says Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit, so you can make of that what you will. I can find no early Christian tradition that says Stephen was sinless or was the new Eve.

As I said, if it is important for you to believe Mary sinned, no problem. It still doesn't change scripture and early Christian belief. There is no problem with anyone holding the opinion that early Christians and scripture are wrong. This is not a sin.

I doubt that you hold any belief of Mary appearing to people through the centuries, so you won't believe Mary confirmed, "I am the Immaculate Conception..." Belief about Mary does not hold to a candle to belief in God and belief Jesus is One with God, the Son of God.

 

[hadit]

That's truly amazing. I see God's grace in my life, and the life I was born into by the grace of God. It's almost beyond imaging the sins--and the number of sins--I would have, and would be, committing if not for the grace of God. I would not be the same person if not for God's guidance, if not for his grace.

Okay, this is what I hear. "I am full of God's grace which keeps me from sin". Thank you, this reinforces what I was saying earlier, that a person can have sinned and still be full of grace, because that was then, this is now.

This is the way it happens:

1. I realize I am a sinner in need of saving.
2. I ask God to save me through His grace.
3. "Hallelujah! God is my savior! I will praise His name."
4. God fills me with His grace through the Holy Spirit and now I am able to overcome sin.

Why is it so heretical for a Catholic to believe that Mary went through that same process?

 

[hadit]

Of course. There are also two or three times where Acts says Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth was said to have been filled with the Holy Spirit when she heard Mary's greeting. There is no Bible verse that says Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit, so you can make of that what you will. I can find no early Christian tradition that says Stephen was sinless or was the new Eve.

As I said, if it is important for you to believe Mary sinned, no problem. It still doesn't change scripture and early Christian belief. There is no problem with anyone holding the opinion that early Christians and scripture are wrong. This is not a sin.

I doubt that you hold any belief of Mary appearing to people through the centuries, so you won't believe Mary confirmed, "I am the Immaculate Conception..." Belief about Mary does not hold to a candle to belief in God and belief Jesus is One with God, the Son of God.

That is correct.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, this is what I hear. "I am full of God's grace which keeps me from sin".

That may be what you heard, but it was not what I said--or meant.

 

[Meriweather]

Thank you, this reinforces what I was saying earlier, that a person can have sinned and still be full of grace, because that was then, this is now.

Again, I cannot and would not (even if I could) stop you from believing what you want despite what was said.

 

[Meriweather]

Why is it so heretical for a Catholic to believe that Mary went through that same process?

Again a twist on what I presented. I did not say it was heretical. Far from it. I said I was presenting what early Christians believe and what scripture noted.

 

[Meriweather]

1. I realize I am a sinner in need of saving.

Especially when it comes to deceit of putting words in another's mouth?

 

[hadit]

Especially when it comes to deceit of putting words in another's mouth?

Something a lot of people are guilty of doing, as I have pointed out?

 

[hadit]

Again a twist on what I presented. I did not say it was heretical. Far from it. I said I was presenting what early Christians believe and what scripture noted.

A particular hairstyle was once considered an apostolic tradition. Not so much any more.

 

[Meriweather]

Something a lot of people are guilty of doing, as I have pointed out

Again, not what I said. It seems I can't say anything to you that is understood.

 

[Meriweather]

A particular hairstyle was once considered an apostolic tradition. Not so much any more.

Again...the twist. This time a twist of apostolic beliefs into apostolic hairstyles.

As I'll mention for the third time: There is no reason to have the same beliefs as the apostles any more than there is to have the same hair styles--or clothes. I'm merely setting forth early Christian beliefs and traditions. I have no wish to convince anyone to change their own modern day opinions/beliefs. It would be nice if it gave someone a better understanding of how people who believe differently arrived at their own conclusions.

 

[Ace Nova]

Mary looks about right.

She looks natural, as she should.

So many people of faith are quick to judge or criticize the way biblical figures are portrayed in the media.

But if you truly had faith, you would know that your exalted images of Prophets, Saints, Mary and Jesus are exactly that - they are exalted images - representing "the very best" in your mind, in your world.

But the reason you lack faith is because you do not realize they were humans like you and I. What makes them who they are is the fact that they (Through Faith in God and their works) exalted themselves from whom we are.

 

[hadit]

Again...the twist. This time a twist of apostolic beliefs into apostolic hairstyles.

As I'll mention for the third time: There is no reason to have the same beliefs as the apostles any more than there is to have the same hair styles--or clothes. I'm merely setting forth early Christian beliefs and traditions. I have no wish to convince anyone to change their own modern day opinions/beliefs. It would be nice if it gave someone a better understanding of how people who believe differently arrived at their own conclusions.

And I greatly appreciate your stance on that.

 

[theHawk]

I never said that she wasn't blessed. All I said is that she wasn't sinless.

You do realize that Revelation chapter 12 is all about the Virgin Mary, right?

The dragon is perusing Mary, wanting to devour her and the child. But she gives birth and raises him, he cannot touch her. This is because she is sinless.

After Jesus was crucified the dragon (Satan) and his fallen angels fought against the other angels, and were defeated and hurled down to Earth.


13 When the dragon realized that he had been hurled down to earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she could fly away from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she was to be looked after for a year, two years, and a half year.[f]

Here, it states clearly the the Woman, Mary, is given two great wings, so she can fly. This isn’t angels whisking her away, this is her flying away with her wings. Can you show us anywhere in the Bible were a mere human is given the wings of an angel and can flee Satan?


Remember when Jesus was on the cross, he said “Behold, your Mother” (John 19:26), he is giving us(Christians) His Mother.


17 Then the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war on the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

So after Satan’s defeat and humiliation, he is enraged at the Woman and wages war on her and all her offspring, the Church, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.



To this day Satan hates Mary even more than Jesus. He knows God cannot be touched, but Mary he hates even more because he sees her as “inferior”, and none of his temptations on her ever worked. All Catholic exorcists testify to this in how demons react to and talk about Mary.

 

[BreezeWood]

So after Satan’s defeat and humiliation, he is enraged at the Woman and wages war on her and all her offspring, the Church, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

from the beginning the truth is their choice being self determination, a&e how to triumph over sin to become pure as was the choice of mary and joseph to not fear the serpent moses and their false commandments to be triumphant as free spirits is why they were chosen by the heavens.

 

[hadit]

You do realize that Revelation chapter 12 is all about the Virgin Mary, right?

The dragon is perusing Mary, wanting to devour her and the child. But she gives birth and raises him, he cannot touch her. This is because she is sinless.

After Jesus was crucified the dragon (Satan) and his fallen angels fought against the other angels, and were defeated and hurled down to Earth.


13 When the dragon realized that he had been hurled down to earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she could fly away from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she was to be looked after for a year, two years, and a half year.[f]

Here, it states clearly the the Woman, Mary, is given two great wings, so she can fly. This isn’t angels whisking her away, this is her flying away with her wings. Can you show us anywhere in the Bible were a mere human is given the wings of an angel and can flee Satan?


Remember when Jesus was on the cross, he said “Behold, your Mother” (John 19:26), he is giving us(Christians) His Mother.


17 Then the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war on the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

So after Satan’s defeat and humiliation, he is enraged at the Woman and wages war on her and all her offspring, the Church, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.



To this day Satan hates Mary even more than Jesus. He knows God cannot be touched, but Mary he hates even more because he sees her as “inferior”, and none of his temptations on her ever worked. All Catholic exorcists testify to this in how demons react to and talk about Mary.

Replace Mary with the nation of Israel, God's chosen people, and it makes more sense. Why would Mary be protected only for 3 1/2 years?

 

[theHawk]

Replace Mary with the nation of Israel, God's chosen people, and it makes more sense. Why would Mary be protected only for 3 1/2 years?

“The nation of Israel” are Christians, the Church. Jesus said “Behold, your Mother.” She is the mother of the Church. She was hidden for that time to protect her from Jews and Romans that wanted to kill her.

Why would it make sense to “Replace Mary with the nation of Israel” though in this chapter? Why would the church only be protected for 3 1/2 years? Was “the nation of Israel” given wings?