Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick argues there is no separation of church and state in U.S. Constitution

[Old Rocks]

Jefferson’s view of the Constitution was not the view of some of the other prime Framers.

There is a certain utility in the expression he coined about that high wall of separation. But it also generates some confusion and some poor analysis of that provision of the First Amendment.

By the way, it’s perfectly ok to view the meaning of our Constitution as being different than Jefferson’s views. Or Hamilton’s.

Or the current resident of the White House.

 

[BackAgain]

Or the current resident of the White House.

Or his immediate predecessors.

 

[pknopp]

51 out of 55 of delegates to the Constitutional Convention identified as Christian: 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 3 Deists. They worshiped the same God, but differently.

It's my belief that their intent in the first amendment was to ensure that the government could not force people to worship according to any specific denomination. They would be free to worship God, the one true God Christians worship, as they saw fit.

Jefferson noted that "whether there are 20 gods or no gods" does not injure anyone.

Along these lines, I feel that hey would be appalled at how their intent was misconstrued and where we are today in the degeneration of the Christian faith to include groups like Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc. Not to mention the Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims. If I have offended anyone, you need to get saved. Read the Bible before it's too late.

Jefferson noted that, that does not injure anyone.

 

[pknopp]

What bullshit. The religious ceremonies and traditions of our Native Americans were outlawed for many years. The prohibition on a state religion or prohibition of a particular religion was put into the Constitution specifically because in the early history of many of our states specific religions were outlawed.

Laws, Rights, and Liberties Related to Religion in Early America

Articles, Laws, and Orders, Divine, Politic, and Martial for the Colony in Virginia (c. 1610) First, since we owe our highest and supreme duty—our greatest, and all our allegiance—to Him, […]

teachingamericanhistory.org

LOL. Green apples.

 

[M14 Shooter]

But the phrase itself, “separation of church and state” is not found in the Constitution.

Correct.
It is found in an 1802 letter from Jefferson to a group of Baptists, assuring them the 1st amendment secures their right to practice their religion as they saw fit, but also that federal government was given no power to interfere with said practice.

That's the full extent of the Jeffersonian "wall of separation between church and state " -- anyone taking that phrase to mean any more than what is explained above takes it out of context and misuses it entirely.

 

[pknopp]

Correct.
It is found in an 1802 letter from Jefferson to a group of Baptists, assuring them the 1st amendment secures their right to practice their religion as they saw fit, but also that federal government was given no power to interfere with said practice.

It was over a state instituting a state religion. That would have stepped on the beliefs of others.

Jefferson noted that the Federal government couldn't do anything at the time.

That's the full extent of the Jeffersonian "wall of separation between church and state " -- anyone taking that phrase to mean any more than what is explained above takes it out of context and misuses it entirely.

It all became moot after the 14th Amendment.

 

[M14 Shooter]

So you understand the Constitution better than Thomas Jefferson?

Hey, dumbshit...
What part of the Constitution did Jefferson write?

 

[pknopp]

Hey, dumbshit...
What part of the Constitution did Jefferson write?

Jefferson demanded the addition of the Bill of Rights.

 

[DStar777]

Jefferson noted that "whether there are 20 gods or no gods" does not injure anyone.

Thomas Jefferson wrote and said many things that are NOT the official law of the land. So did George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Paine... ect, ect. This should be about what is written in the First Amemdment.

 

[pknopp]

Thomas Jefferson wrote and said many things that are NOT the official law of the land. So did George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Paine... ect, ect. This should be about what is written in the First Amemdment.

The 1st says the same thing. One God, 20 gods or no God, you are free to do as you please.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Thomas Jefferson wrote and said many things that are NOT the official law of the land. So did George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Paine... ect, ect. This should be about what is written in the First Amemdment.

Imagine the reaction of the left, if you argued Presidential correspondence from DJT regarding constitutional rights creates legally binding precedent.

 

[DStar777]

The 1st says the same thing. One God, 20 gods or no God, you are free to do as you please.

Oh Ok. So a football coach may lead a group of students in a prayer during football practice? Thank you.

 

[pknopp]

Oh Ok. So a football coach may lead a group of students in a prayer during football practice? Thank you.

No, because he is a representative of the government in that capacity.

If students wish to pray, they have every right to.

 

[M14 Shooter]

re: Jefferson and his wall of separation of church and state

For a clearer understanding of his meaning of the term, read the Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom, enacted in 1786.

https://cas.umw.edu/cpin/files/2011/09/Jefferson-Statute-2-versions.pdf

The Wall of Separation, as he penned it:
Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent
or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be
enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall
otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men
shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of
religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities

This is a far different meaning than the left would have you believe.

The introduction is especially interesting:

Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it
by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to
beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the
Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not
to propagate it by coercions on either, as it was in his Almighty power to do;

 

[DStar777]

No, because he is a representative of the government in that capacity

The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.."..
Is this "representative of the government" passing any laws?

 

[pknopp]

The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.."..
Is this "representative of the government" passing any laws?

Yes and a government representative in his official capacity is establishing one religion over another.

 

[DStar777]

Yes and a government representative in his official capacity is establishing one religion over another.

So in the act of praying, he's passing a law? I was taught how a bill becomes law. I don't recall this being the procedure.

 

[pknopp]

So in the act of praying, he's passing a law?

Take a class on the Constitution.

I was taught how a bill becomes law. I don't recall this being the procedure.

Troll on.

 

[DStar777]

Take a class on the Constitution.

Ok let's try this again. The Football coach and a group of students are praying during football practice. According to you, that is an act of legislation. Since when does the free exercise of religion constitute passing a law when the person doing this is a "representative of the government"?? I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ok let's try this again. The Football coach and a group of students are praying during football practice. According to you, that is an act of legislation. Since when does the free exercise of religion constitute passing a law when the person doing this is a "representative of the government"?? I've never heard of such a thing.

Its hard to discuss issues with people who refuse to understand.