Just another day in America. Guns keeping people safe... 8 dead... the dead can't be killed, therefore they're safe.

[Bob Blaylock]

This is a lie.

You are now forever trapped in a classic paradox, from which you will never escape.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Odd that, in my AO we are armed to the teeth yet we have a very low gun crime rate....So how do you square that?

A few weeks back a local grandma held a ne'er-do-well at gun point till the cops finally arrived and toted him off to jail.....She did not ventilate him.....That happened about 3 miles away from me.

View attachment 745120

He was held without bond too.

Because issues are complex. It's not as simple as looking at ONE STATISTIC and saying "oh, this means that".
The thing is that most people, 95% at the very least want simple answers to complex problems, and with their simple answers they'll declare themselves geniuses for having been told to think that.

What crimes do people use guns to commit? (What's that for grammar?)
Generally I'd say there are crimes like theft, robbery etc, the taking of something from someone is much, MUCH easier with a gun. Rape would also come in this, it is "taking something", ie, sex.
There's anger issues, people get angry, they solve the problem by being all macho and pulling out a gun. Drug crimes with guns might fall into this. Though it might also fall into the category of get one over on your opponents, a team sport, gang violence etc.
Clearly there's murder, though how many murders are planned in the first place, and how many happen in the course of one of the previous I don't know.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

"According to the Victim Survey (NCVS), 25% of the victims of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault in 1993 faced an offender armed with a handgun. Of all firearm-related crime reported to the survey, 86% involved handguns."

Rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault. The main uses for guns, perhaps, details are vague, obviously as there isn't a concise recording of such things.

Who commits such crimes? Robbery is mostly a low income crime. Drugs are often pushed by people from lower income groups, lower education groups. A lot of this has to do with poverty.

Who's going to use a gun? Or who's going to commit a crime? Someone who has less to lose. A dude who earns $1 million a year is much, much less likely to commit such crimes. They have more to lose.
So, you have an area with lots of guns, but lots of people with lots to lose, you're going to have less gun violence than an area with less guns, but with lots of people with less to lose, with more to gain from crime.

However guns sometimes are used impulsively.

Here's some facts.
The UK has very strict gun laws. Some criminals have guns, but handguns aren't easy to get.

Guns in the United Kingdom — Firearms, gun law and gun control

Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns in United Kingdom, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development

www.gunpolicy.org

Gun homicides in the UK 0.02 in 2015

Germany, a safe country, but with rather more relaxed gun laws. 4.96 guns per 100 in the UK, 30.95 guns per 100 people in Germany.

Gun homicides in Germany 0.06 in 2015, or three times higher.

In Switzerland, the poster boy for all gun lovers, up to 41 guns per 100 people in civilian hands, plus some as their system is a little different and many people are militia member with guns (under strict conditions).

Gun homicides in Switzerland 0.09 in 2019. (0.22 in 2015, so you can see it fluctuates a bit, it was higher in the early 2000s)

So, more guns here does mean more gun homicides.

However, Switzerland's homicide rate is 0.5 per 100,000 people, the UK's is 1.12. Clearly guns are having an impact. Switzerland has more gun murders, 4.5 times more than the UK, and yet has half the murder rate.

People with access to guns will use guns when they want to do something. A gun makes a person much more powerful.

So why does the US have a MUCH, MUCH higher rate than this? Easy access to guns. Germany and Switzerland have guns, but access for criminals is much less. Which means a gun is more precious. In the US a criminal with a gun might use it in a crime and abandon it when chased by the police.

In Europe they're less likely to use it in a crime, for fear of losing it. Less likely to throwing it away as it's much harder to replace.

Yes, some people can use guns to stop crime. However the US, in spite of such a thing, has a higher murder rate (by 5 times) than the UK, it still has high rates of crime.
Alaska with LOADS OF GUNS has the HIGHEST rape rate. Surely these women can use their guns to stop this rape. Whereas NY has one of the lowest, lots of women without guns..... not able to protect themselves from the hoards wanting to rape them.

 

[miketx]

You are now forever trapped in a classic paradox, from which you will never escape.

I had my own variation. "Everything I say is a lie." lol.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

You [Incel Joe] just lie...all the time....

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Stamping your little feet and saying "I don't want it to be true" does not constitute debunking.

Correct. You should stop. Time for you to grow up.

Someone who hasn't achieved any better level of intellectual maturity than this by the time it is sixty years old, is never going to do so. If anything, Incel Joe seems to have declined rather significantly in the last week or so.

 

[JoeB131]

This does....

Kellerman who did the study that came up with the 43 times more likely myth, was forced to retract that study and to do the research over when other academics pointed out how flawed his methods were....he then changed the 43 times number to 2.7, but he was still using flawed data to get even that number.....

A clarification isn't a retraction.

 

[JoeB131]

Someone who hasn't achieved any better level of intellectual maturity than this by the time it is sixty years old, is never going to do so. If anything, Joe seems to have declined rather significantly in the last week or so.

Still living in Mormon Bob's head.

I mean, hey, this is actually a sad situation. A disturbed man who was on police radar was able to get a gun and annihilate his family. And the thought of the gun nuts is "Don't take my guns!!!"

 

[JoeB131]

where is your proof he was Mormon?

Lives in Utah.
Five Kids.
Lives in a town called "Enoch".

Just screams, "Crazy Mormon".

Sad about the kids, though.

 

[progressive hunter]

Utah shooting: A man killed his family after wife filed for divorce

Police found eight people, including five children, dead in a Utah home during a welfare check.

www.bbc.com

"A family of eight - including five children - have been found shot dead inside a rural home in Enoch City, in the US state of Utah."

Well, I guess after Sandy Hook, we know nothing will be done about this.

since no law will ever stop a bad person from doing bad things they should have had a gun too,,

 

[Auld Phart]

Lives in Utah.
Five Kids.
Lives in a town called "Enoch".

Just screams, "Crazy Mormon".

Sad about the kids, though.

Just screams, "Crazy Mormon".

the only one screaming "Crazy Mormon" is you.


and, like most of your opinions, you're probably wrong

 

[JoeB131]

the only one screaming "Crazy Mormon" is you.


and, like most of your opinions, you're probably wrong

You might have a point, "Crazy" and "Mormon" is a bit redundant.

 

[2aguy]

A clarification isn't a retraction.

He did the study all over you dipstick......his number went from 43 to 2.7 and people who reviewed the study said he still got it wrong.

 

[2aguy]

Because issues are complex. It's not as simple as looking at ONE STATISTIC and saying "oh, this means that".
The thing is that most people, 95% at the very least want simple answers to complex problems, and with their simple answers they'll declare themselves geniuses for having been told to think that.

What crimes do people use guns to commit? (What's that for grammar?)
Generally I'd say there are crimes like theft, robbery etc, the taking of something from someone is much, MUCH easier with a gun. Rape would also come in this, it is "taking something", ie, sex.
There's anger issues, people get angry, they solve the problem by being all macho and pulling out a gun. Drug crimes with guns might fall into this. Though it might also fall into the category of get one over on your opponents, a team sport, gang violence etc.
Clearly there's murder, though how many murders are planned in the first place, and how many happen in the course of one of the previous I don't know.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

"According to the Victim Survey (NCVS), 25% of the victims of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault in 1993 faced an offender armed with a handgun. Of all firearm-related crime reported to the survey, 86% involved handguns."

Rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault. The main uses for guns, perhaps, details are vague, obviously as there isn't a concise recording of such things.

Who commits such crimes? Robbery is mostly a low income crime. Drugs are often pushed by people from lower income groups, lower education groups. A lot of this has to do with poverty.

Who's going to use a gun? Or who's going to commit a crime? Someone who has less to lose. A dude who earns $1 million a year is much, much less likely to commit such crimes. They have more to lose.
So, you have an area with lots of guns, but lots of people with lots to lose, you're going to have less gun violence than an area with less guns, but with lots of people with less to lose, with more to gain from crime.

However guns sometimes are used impulsively.

Here's some facts.
The UK has very strict gun laws. Some criminals have guns, but handguns aren't easy to get.

Guns in the United Kingdom — Firearms, gun law and gun control

Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns in United Kingdom, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development

www.gunpolicy.org

Gun homicides in the UK 0.02 in 2015

Germany, a safe country, but with rather more relaxed gun laws. 4.96 guns per 100 in the UK, 30.95 guns per 100 people in Germany.

Gun homicides in Germany 0.06 in 2015, or three times higher.

In Switzerland, the poster boy for all gun lovers, up to 41 guns per 100 people in civilian hands, plus some as their system is a little different and many people are militia member with guns (under strict conditions).

Gun homicides in Switzerland 0.09 in 2019. (0.22 in 2015, so you can see it fluctuates a bit, it was higher in the early 2000s)

So, more guns here does mean more gun homicides.

However, Switzerland's homicide rate is 0.5 per 100,000 people, the UK's is 1.12. Clearly guns are having an impact. Switzerland has more gun murders, 4.5 times more than the UK, and yet has half the murder rate.

People with access to guns will use guns when they want to do something. A gun makes a person much more powerful.

So why does the US have a MUCH, MUCH higher rate than this? Easy access to guns. Germany and Switzerland have guns, but access for criminals is much less. Which means a gun is more precious. In the US a criminal with a gun might use it in a crime and abandon it when chased by the police.

In Europe they're less likely to use it in a crime, for fear of losing it. Less likely to throwing it away as it's much harder to replace.

Yes, some people can use guns to stop crime. However the US, in spite of such a thing, has a higher murder rate (by 5 times) than the UK, it still has high rates of crime.
Alaska with LOADS OF GUNS has the HIGHEST rape rate. Surely these women can use their guns to stop this rape. Whereas NY has one of the lowest, lots of women without guns..... not able to protect themselves from the hoards wanting to rape them.

Again...you have to actually address the 15 million people murdered in Europe in just 6 years.

More people than in the entire 246 year history of guns in America and gun murder.....

You don't want to face that number so you ignore it......

Men can rape women without guns.....because they use knives, or beat them since they are stronger than their victims....

Guns in the hands of the women? How about you address that?

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.

The guns in Alaska are hunting rifles and they have very few police and those police are stretched thin over a barren landscape.......you dope.

 

[2aguy]

Because issues are complex. It's not as simple as looking at ONE STATISTIC and saying "oh, this means that".
The thing is that most people, 95% at the very least want simple answers to complex problems, and with their simple answers they'll declare themselves geniuses for having been told to think that.

What crimes do people use guns to commit? (What's that for grammar?)
Generally I'd say there are crimes like theft, robbery etc, the taking of something from someone is much, MUCH easier with a gun. Rape would also come in this, it is "taking something", ie, sex.
There's anger issues, people get angry, they solve the problem by being all macho and pulling out a gun. Drug crimes with guns might fall into this. Though it might also fall into the category of get one over on your opponents, a team sport, gang violence etc.
Clearly there's murder, though how many murders are planned in the first place, and how many happen in the course of one of the previous I don't know.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

"According to the Victim Survey (NCVS), 25% of the victims of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault in 1993 faced an offender armed with a handgun. Of all firearm-related crime reported to the survey, 86% involved handguns."

Rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault. The main uses for guns, perhaps, details are vague, obviously as there isn't a concise recording of such things.

Who commits such crimes? Robbery is mostly a low income crime. Drugs are often pushed by people from lower income groups, lower education groups. A lot of this has to do with poverty.

Who's going to use a gun? Or who's going to commit a crime? Someone who has less to lose. A dude who earns $1 million a year is much, much less likely to commit such crimes. They have more to lose.
So, you have an area with lots of guns, but lots of people with lots to lose, you're going to have less gun violence than an area with less guns, but with lots of people with less to lose, with more to gain from crime.

However guns sometimes are used impulsively.

Here's some facts.
The UK has very strict gun laws. Some criminals have guns, but handguns aren't easy to get.

Guns in the United Kingdom — Firearms, gun law and gun control

Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns in United Kingdom, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development

www.gunpolicy.org

Gun homicides in the UK 0.02 in 2015

Germany, a safe country, but with rather more relaxed gun laws. 4.96 guns per 100 in the UK, 30.95 guns per 100 people in Germany.

Gun homicides in Germany 0.06 in 2015, or three times higher.

In Switzerland, the poster boy for all gun lovers, up to 41 guns per 100 people in civilian hands, plus some as their system is a little different and many people are militia member with guns (under strict conditions).

Gun homicides in Switzerland 0.09 in 2019. (0.22 in 2015, so you can see it fluctuates a bit, it was higher in the early 2000s)

So, more guns here does mean more gun homicides.

However, Switzerland's homicide rate is 0.5 per 100,000 people, the UK's is 1.12. Clearly guns are having an impact. Switzerland has more gun murders, 4.5 times more than the UK, and yet has half the murder rate.

People with access to guns will use guns when they want to do something. A gun makes a person much more powerful.

So why does the US have a MUCH, MUCH higher rate than this? Easy access to guns. Germany and Switzerland have guns, but access for criminals is much less. Which means a gun is more precious. In the US a criminal with a gun might use it in a crime and abandon it when chased by the police.

In Europe they're less likely to use it in a crime, for fear of losing it. Less likely to throwing it away as it's much harder to replace.

Yes, some people can use guns to stop crime. However the US, in spite of such a thing, has a higher murder rate (by 5 times) than the UK, it still has high rates of crime.
Alaska with LOADS OF GUNS has the HIGHEST rape rate. Surely these women can use their guns to stop this rape. Whereas NY has one of the lowest, lots of women without guns..... not able to protect themselves from the hoards wanting to rape them.

Germany murdered 15 million people in 6 years....more people murdered than in the entire 246 year history of the United States by gun murder.....

How about you average in those murders and see what you come up with....

 

[JoeB131]

He did the study all over you dipstick......his number went from 43 to 2.7 and people who reviewed the study said he still got it wrong.

He did nothing of the sort. in fact, he repeated the study in other cities and found pretty much the same results. Which is what you would expect to find.

If 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicides and 50% of gun homicides are domestic violence, then OF COURSE the vast majority of gun deaths are going to be the gun you find in the house.

The FBI has found that out of the 43,000 gun deaths we have every year, only 200 or so are justified self-defense by civilians. So if anything, the 43-1 figure is probably conservative.

 

[JoeB131]

Again...you have to actually address the 15 million people murdered in Europe in just 6 years.

Okay. War sucks. People die. It's been addressed.

Guns don't prevent wars from sucking.

I notice the one point you refuse to address is when the American Government was rounding up Japanese Americans, not one person with a gun in the US rushed out to stop this massive violation of human rights.

Any more than one German with a gun rushed out to stop the Nazis from rounding up the Jews.

because- PEOPLE WON'T PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE FOR STRANGERS. Whether or not they have guns or not.

Frankly, I see the police kicking down your door, I'm going to assume they have a darned good reason.

 

[Auld Phart]

You might have a point, "Crazy" and "Mormon" is a bit redundant.

only to morons.

 

[JoeB131]

only to morons.

Nope, the Mormons are really kind of crazy.
Baptizing dead people
Blood Atonement
Magic Underwear
Eternal marriage
Ruling Planets in the afterlife.
Jesus and Satan are brothers
God lives on a planet called Kolob.

 

[Auld Phart]

Nope, the Mormons are really kind of crazy.
Baptizing dead people
Blood Atonement
Magic Underwear
Eternal marriage
Ruling Planets in the afterlife.
Jesus and Satan are brothers
God lives on a planet called Kolob.

and they think you are.


with good reason.


(they are saner than you)

 

[JoeB131]

and they think you are.


with good reason.

Um, sure. Let me know when you are ready to have a theological argument about whether or not Joseph Smith was talking to God.
Since you haven't converted, then you don't believe he was any more than I do.